FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[HTTRDynasty]

Tua has a longer injury history than RGIII did as a prospect and yet people are so eager to draft him.  I’ll never understand this fan base. 
 

Can anyone name some college QBs with as many injuries as Tua (including at least one extremely serious injury) that have found long-term success in the NFL?

[Riggo#44]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

You can't give up on someone you never had. He's not a Redskin

 

You're passing on Chase Young to take Tua. We are guaranteed the opportunity to take Young. Guaranteed. He's there, we take Tua. We lose out on Young. We now have 2 QBs. We would have to trade Haskins.

 

The opportunity cost to take Tua is Chase Young and Haskins.

 

We have Kerrigan and Sweat no matter what we do in the deaft.

[KDawg]

Just now, Riggo#44 said:

 

You're passing on Chase Young to take Tua. We are guaranteed the opportunity to take Young. Guaranteed. He's there, we take Tua. We lose out on Young. We now have 2 QBs. We would have to trade Haskins.

 

The opportunity cost to take Tua is Chase Young and Haskins.

 

We have Kerrigan and Sweat no matter what we do in the deaft.

 

You're passing on Tua to take Young. We are guaranteed the opportunity to take Tua. Guaranteed. He's there, we take Young. We lose out on Tua. We now have 2 EDGE rushers in back to back years. We would have a lot of sources tied up in EDGE.

 

Can do that with any position. Neither guy is on the team. We're not passing on Tua to take Young. We're not passing on Young to take Tua. We're taking the guy that fits what the team can use best. Period. One of them won't be selected, but not drafting someone doesn't necessarily mean we "passed" on them. It means someone else had the value we needed to take. 

 

The opportunity cost to take Young is Tua and having Dwayne Haskins (who has many concerns and questions on his resume).

[OVCChairman]

26 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

For your first question, I think Tua is worth more than Haskins. Chase Young has nothing to do with it, despite what our fanbase thinks, he's not on the team yet

 

 

 

I'm sorry but you can't discount Young, then put Tua's talent level on a pedestal.

 

Tua > Haskins as a prospect

 

Haskins @ QB / Young / Sweat / Kerringan @ DE > Tua @ QB / Sweat / Kerrigan @ DE

 

And i've been in the camp with you that Simmons may be on a similar plane as Young, so I'm not having Chase Young tunnel vision... I just feel that the sum of Haskins and Young is greater than Tua, for multiple reasons including injury concerns, and the fact that he's now more susceptible to things like arthritis and other lingering, long term concerns.  Tua may be better than Haskins for 5 years, but when both of them are staring 30 in the face, which one is more likely to be able to maintain health?  

 

We've been screaming about this team drafting injured players @ value.... to put THIS much stock into Tua is a risk i'm just not willing to take when we've been the MOST injured team over the last 2 years. 

[Riggo#44]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

You're passing on Tua to take Young. We are guaranteed the opportunity to take Tua. Guaranteed. He's there, we take Young. We lose out on Tua. We now have 2 EDGE rushers in back to back years. We would have a lot of sources tied up in EDGE.

 

It's actually 4 in a row. Allen, Payne, Sweat, and most likely Young. The big difference is you can play all 4 at the same time. You can put one a LB, like Von Miller, if need be. Kerrigan too. You can never have too many pass rushers.

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Can do that with any position. 

 

Except QB...unless you believe in a multiple QB set, which is a gimmick, used a handful of times in a season.

 

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

We're not passing on Tua to take Young. We're not passing on Young to take Tua.

 So what you're saying is we can get both? Other wise we are passing on one to get the other. That's what opportunity cost is. It's the loss of the potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen.

8 minutes ago, KDawg said:

The opportunity cost to take Young is Tua and having Dwayne Haskins (who has many concerns and questions on his resume).

So you're going to keep both QBs on the roster? That is a huge waste of resources. And Tua has major, major durability issues.

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

I'm sorry but you can't discount Young, then put Tua's talent level on a pedestal.

 

Tua > Haskins as a prospect

 

Haskins @ QB / Young / Sweat / Kerringan @ DE > Tua @ QB / Sweat / Kerrigan @ DE

 

And i've been in the camp with you that Simmons may be on a similar plane as Young, so I'm not having Chase Young tunnel vision... I just feel that the sum of Haskins and Young is greater than Tua, for multiple reasons including injury concerns, and the fact that he's now more susceptible to things like arthritis and other lingering, long term concerns.  Tua may be better than Haskins for 5 years, but when both of them are staring 30 in the face, which one is more likely to be able to maintain health?  

 

We've been screaming about this team drafting injured players @ value.... to put THIS much stock into Tua is a risk i'm just not willing to take when we've been the MOST injured team over the last 2 years. 

 

Who "dismissed" Young? Dude isn't on the team. You're not passing on him anymore than you pass on any prospect left on the board in any other draft.

 

Completely disagree, though, that Haskins + Young + Sweat + Kerrigan > Tua + Sweat + Kerrigan. Tua is that much better than Haskins, in my opinion. I don't even think it's close. And that's not even saying Haskins can't be good. I think that much of Tua.

 

Now, include the injuries and it's closer. All his medicals are clean as **** right now, though per reports. 

 

But I'm not sure any of you are even reading what I'm saying and it's frustrating as hell. 

 

I AM NOT SAYING DRAFT TUA. NOT ONCE HAVE I SAID THAT.

 

I am saying it has to be discussed and its not an invalid discussion, as some want to write it off to be. That's it. That's all. 

[MariusVT]

As far as Tua goes, I'd have to see him throwing and going through a complete workout before I'd be ok drafting him.  I'd need concrete proof that the hip had zero impact on his ability to be dynamic.  If he's slipped even a little, then he's not the high level prospect he was before the hip.

 

Then given his injury history, you really need to think about breaking the bank in FA and putting in a top tier talent oline.

[Koolblue13]

6 hours ago, Califan007 said:

Some early morning reading lol....This is where many fans left off with Haskins before he got injured and before the Tua talk started up:

I'm a fan. No interest in drafting his replacement every year. Eventually you pick your line and run it. 

 

How long did that take you btw?lol

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

It's actually 4 in a row. Allen, Payne, Sweat, and most likely Young. The big difference is you can play all 4 at the same time. You can put one a LB, like Von Miller, if need be. Kerrigan too. You can never have too many pass rushers.

 

 

It's two. Those other two are interior guys. 

 

Except QB...unless you believe in a multiple QB set, which is a gimmick, used a handful of times in a season.

 

If you have zero QBs, how many do you have? I'm not sure what Haskins is. Could be good. Could be bad. 

 

 

So what you're saying is we can get both? Other wise we are passing on one to get the other. That's what opportunity cost is. It's the loss of the potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen.

 

I'm not sure why that even remotely matters. It's the same in every draft, every year, always. We passed on Tom Brady and many others. Multiple times. You draft for what makes your team better, even if you believe someone is a better overall football player.

 

So you're going to keep both QBs on the roster? That is a huge waste of resources. And Tua has major, major durability issues.

 

I'm not. No. I trade Haskins for whatever we can in that situation. We saw what Haskins does when he's not the starter. He folds. And then he loses every bit of his value.

[OVCChairman]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I am saying it has to be discussed and its not an invalid discussion, as some want to write it off to be. That's it. That's all. 

 

 

I get that, so no worries bud maybe I wasn't clear.  I don't think ANYTHING should be off the table, I was just elaborating on what my thought process was, and that it could be considered... I just wouldn't do it myself because of a handful of reasons. 

 

 

 

i actually mentioned in my initial response that I wouldn't do it, but the most important factor is that the decision 100% should be left up to Rivera and Smith.  That they should have the power to make that decision. 

 

 

And i didn't say you 'dismissed' Young... you discounted him saying that he's not on the team, so we're not 'giving up' Young to take Tua.  I just meant you can't say that, then make the argument that we're 'passing' on Tua, when he's not on the team yet either.  In both instances, we have to give up assets to acquire that player.... given what we've already invested at the QB position, plus what other players we could acquire with the same assets... Tua would come at a steep price .. and at the end of the day you have to believe Tua is THAT much of an upgrade. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

 

And i didn't say you 'dismissed' Young... you discounted him saying that he's not on the team, so we're not 'giving up' Young to take Tua.  I just meant you can't say that, then make the argument that we're 'passing' on Tua, when he's not on the team yet either.  In both instances, we have to give up assets to acquire that player.... given what we've already invested at the QB position, plus what other players we could acquire with the same assets... Tua would come at a steep price .. and at the end of the day you have to believe Tua is THAT much of an upgrade. 

 

That argument I made about passing on Tua was copy and pasting Riggo#44's post and changing the positions and names. I did it to prove that it goes both ways, not to pine for Tua

[Riggo#44]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

It's two. Those other two are interior guys. 

 

Well it was 4 D-lineman. Either way, you can not have enough pass rushers.

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

If you have zero QBs, how many do you have? I'm not sure what Haskins is. Could be good. Could be bad. 

ANd there is a significant possibility Tua might not stay on the field. Greater possibility than I would want at the second overall pick.

 

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I'm not sure why that even remotely matters. It's the same in every draft, every year, always. We passed on Tom Brady and many others. Multiple times. You draft for what makes your team better, even if you believe someone is a better overall football player.

Exactly my point. Every player is an opportunity cost. You make the best decision possible. What is the best decision here? Going with a small-ish QB with significant durability issues (even if his medicals come back clear, he still has a long injury history)? Are you going to pass on a superior player in Young to take Tua? Hard, hard pass. Give me Young and Haskins. (And thank you for not making the Cardinals comparison--Josh Rosen sucked and got worse as his rookie year went on--1 TD pass in his final 5 or 6 games). Young improves your team far better than Tua does.

 

I'm not 100% sold on Haskins. He need to prove it, but I saw enough improvement last year that taking a QB with the 2nd overall pick would be insane. I wouldn't even take Burrow, if the Bengals take Young. It'd take the treasure trove of picks.

[KDawg]

11 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

 

ANd there is a significant possibility Tua might not stay on the field. Greater possibility than I would want at the second overall pick.

 

Don't disagree here. Comes down to medicals and the team's evaluations of both prospects. I just hope they aren't stuck in tunnel vision on Young and actually do the due diligence. I believe they will. Kyle Smith wasn't on the draft Haskins bandwagon, so whichever direction he goes I will put my trust in. I think both guys are great picks. So I'm excited.

 

Quote

Exactly my point. Every player is an opportunity cost. You make the best decision possible. What is the best decision here? Going with a small-ish QB with significant durability issues (even if his medicals come back clear, he still has a long injury history)? Are you going to pass on a superior player in Young to take Tua? Hard, hard pass. Give me Young and Haskins. (And thank you for not making the Cardinals comparison--Josh Rosen sucked and got worse as his rookie year went on--1 TD pass in his final 5 or 6 games). Young improves your team far better than Tua does.

 

I don't think Young is superior to Tua. I think they're both in that upper atmosphere of prospects. "Presidential" type guys. And we are in a position where we may (or maybe we do lol) not be in position to get a top tier edge rush or quarterback talent again without using resources to move up to get them. Which is more important to a football team? Quarterback. I don't even think it's a question. 

 

I disagree that Young improves the team further than a healthy Tua does. I think the DEs make a jump regardless due to a competent scheme. If I were making predictions: Sweat 10-12 sacks, Kerrigan 8-10 sacks. If Young is there he's probably good for 10-14 sacks. Sweat remains at 10-12. Kerrigan is probably in the 4-6 range. Presures will be 10ish% more with Young maybe? Turnovers probably similar.

 

I think Young absolutely improves the team. Dude is an animal. I'd be happy to have him.

 

But I think Tua is a guy that can throw for 30:10 on a regular basis. I don't think Haskins is a 30:10 guy. He may be a 30:20 guy. He may be able to throw for similar yardage. But he's going to turn the ball over more and make more costly mistakes. I think it's a fairly even exchange. In that case, I default to the QB.

 

But again, I'm not sure about medicals. And it's hard to write off Young because he's so damn good. 

 

Now, I'm with you on the injuries. Tua has to be vetted. And if the team has any distrust in his ability to stay healthy, you take Young and move on happy in life. 

 

Quote

I'm not 100% sold on Haskins. He need to prove it, but I saw enough improvement last year that taking a QB with the 2nd overall pick would be insane. I wouldn't even take Burrow, if the Bengals take Young. It'd take the treasure trove of picks.

 

I don't see what you saw. I was VERY pleased with Haskins in his final two games. I was excited to watch him play. He looked very good. But again, context... Two of the worst pass Ds in the league. Counter context: That was when he was getting more comfortable in the NFL, the scheme and the coaches. Counter to my counter context: Different playbook, different roster, different situation.

 

As far as your scenario that Young goes #1... That changes EVERYTHING. I trade back. Even if Tua and Burrow are both gone, I take Simmons, the best OT on the board and leave with a giant smile on my face.

 

My overall take on the #2 pick: Unless we do something really, really stupid... We wind up with Chase Young, Tua or a haul of draft picks in differing scenarios. I like 'em all. 

 

 

[Riggo#44]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

But I think Tua is a guy that can throw for 30:10 on a regular basis.

 I think Haskins is too, and he's healthier. I don't want to touch Tua's injury concerns.

 

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I don't think Young is superior to Tua. I think they're both in that upper atmosphere of prospects. "Presidential" type guys. And we are in a position where we may (or maybe we do lol) not be in position to get a top tier edge rush or quarterback talent again without using resources to move up to get them. Which is more important to a football team? Quarterback. I don't even think it's a question. 

 

I disagree that Young improves the team further than a healthy Tua does. I think the DEs make a jump regardless due to a competent scheme. If I were making predictions: Sweat 10-12 sacks, Kerrigan 8-10 sacks. If Young is there he's probably good for 10-14 sacks. Sweat remains at 10-12. Kerrigan is probably in the 4-6 range. Presures will be 10ish% more with Young maybe? Turnovers probably similar.

 

Young alters your gameplan. I don't think he can be accounted for in just stats. I think you have a premier pass rush. And you want to stop a great QB--you beat the **** out of him.

[Darrell Green Fan]

14 hours ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

 He got forced into early action and came around by the end and showed serious improvement.

 

 

 

 

So funny you posted this because I heard so many complain that he was not given a chance earlier because Grudon "didn't like him".  I hated Jay as a coach, thought he was terrible in so many ways.  But this criticism was completely unfair.

 

It was entirely possible that the player was not ready.  We have now heard from the 2nd coach Callahan who said as much when he took the job. Then we have Doug and others implying he was not working hard enough.  You put all that with the fact that he only started a year in college and it was very likely that Gruden was right, he just wan't ready to play.  

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Riggo#44 said:

 I think Haskins is too, and he's healthier. I don't want to touch Tua's injury concerns.

 

 

 

 

And this is the crux. I don't think Haskins is a 30:10 guy. And, if he remains our QB I hope I'm wrong.

 

I think he's capable of being a good QB. And put up some really good seasons,but I don't see a 30:10 apy guy. I wish I saw what you guys all seem to. 

 

Young alters your gameplan. I don't think he can be accounted for in just stats. I think you have a premier pass rush. And you want to stop a great QB--you beat the **** out of him.

 

Except for Pat Mahomes and those kinds of guys. Then you have to just out score them

[Riggo#44]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

And this is the crux. I don't think Haskins is a 30:10 guy. And, if he remains our QB I hope I'm wrong.

 

I think he's capable of being a good QB. And put up some really good seasons,but I don't see a 30:10 apy guy. I wish I saw what you guys all seem to. 

I think you're seriously underrating Haskins, Young, and Tua's durability concerns.

 

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Except for Pat Mahomes and those kinds of guys. Then you have to just out score them

They did, until Shanahan **** the bed.

 

Pat Mahomes is interesting. I wonder what the conversation would have been if we had to play at all his 1st year?

[757SeanTaylor21]

57 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

You're passing on Tua to take Young. We are guaranteed the opportunity to take Tua. Guaranteed. He's there, we take Young. We lose out on Tua. We now have 2 EDGE rushers in back to back years. We would have a lot of sources tied up in EDGE.

 

Can do that with any position. Neither guy is on the team. We're not passing on Tua to take Young. We're not passing on Young to take Tua. We're taking the guy that fits what the team can use best. Period. One of them won't be selected, but not drafting someone doesn't necessarily mean we "passed" on them. It means someone else had the value we needed to take. 

 

The opportunity cost to take Young is Tua and having Dwayne Haskins (who has many concerns and questions on his resume).

Really the difference you got to factor in is...theres only one qb on the field at a time. 2 edge rushers on field at same time. So tying up resources in 2 drafts for 2 rushers isnt equivalent to 2 first round qbs

[KDawg]

Just now, Riggo#44 said:

I think you're seriously underrating Haskins, Young, and Tua's durability concerns.

 

They did, until Shanahan **** the bed.

 

Pat Mahomes is interesting. I wonder what the conversation would have been if we had to play at all his 1st year?

 

I'm not underrating Young, that's for sure.

 

I'm not underrating Tua's injuries - because I'm not a doctor. I just know Deshaun Watson was tabbed as too injury prone... and I wish he was our QB. The QB position is such a different animal, man. It just is. 

 

I think you're overrating Haskins. For the team's sake, I hope you're right and I'm wrong. 

Just now, 757SeanTaylor21 said:

Really the difference you got to factor in is...theres only one qb on the field at a time. 2 edge rushers on field at same time. So tying up resources in 2 drafts for 2 rushers isnt equivalent to 2 first round qbs

 

But you're thinking short term, aren't you?

 

If Haskins is as good as people think he is, you can get compensation. Sounds to me, like the way people think of him here, a second rounder is easy to get. I wouldn't keep him on the roster. He folds when he's the back up. We saw it last year.

 

Two edge rushers sounds great right now, but when we start dishing out deals to pay defensive linemen, that is less appealing. in 4 years we have to pay Sweat. In 5 years we have to pay Young. After next season, we have to pay (or get rid of) Allen. The year after that is Daron Payne. 

 

In four years, McLaurin and Haskins are up. 

 

These are all guys in big money positions. 

 

Young will cost less than Tua on second contracts. So that much I can agree with. But Edge in total would likely account for more of our cap dollars than the quarterback position would. That or close. 

 

Lots of chess moves to think about here.

 

In the end, I feel that whatever Kyle Smith does I'll back.

 

I see logic in drafting Chase Young.

 

I see logic in drafting Tua.

 

I see logic in trading back. 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

13 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

 

In the end, I feel that whatever Kyle Smith does I'll back.

 

That's where I am at.  I see the logic in riding with Haskins.  I see the logic in riding with Tua.  Kyle is working with a heck of a lot more information and expertise on the subjects than we are.

 

It's not like here we go again, we got another potential elite QB at our pick, do we take the dude or not?  Being in this position is rare.  If the FO sees Tua the way Snider describes below and they are unsure about Haskins, pull the trigger.  If Kyle is now smitten by Haskins, terrific, then pass on Tua.  Simple as that.

 

I am not in the camp of hey it would be cool to make the playoffs every now and then at 9-7, 10-6.  I'd take it over stinking.  But I want a shot at the SB for a change.  That's one of the ingredients in the soup according to NFL insiders as to why KC drafted Mahomes.    And I got no idea if Tua is that guy.  From a layman stand point, he's been one of my favorite college players.  I drove up almost 4 hours one afternoon just because I wanted to see him play.  So from my perspective, Tua is an elite prospect.  As for his health, I got no idea.  I heard today that his ankle stuff years back was very minor and that the hip issue was much less serious than expected.  But I am not swearing by his health one way or another.

 

As for Haskins, I've heard things and seen things I like and some that I don't.  I haven't quite made up my mind about him.  But if Kyle has a beat on him, Tua or whatever, I am cool. I'll ride with whatever it is.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/redskins/gameday/snider-tasking-for-tua

And, there’s one more twist. Suppose the Redskins decide to keep Tagovailoa for themselves. It’s not like ringing endorsements of incumbent Dwayne Haskins have been steadily coming from the new regime. Tagovailoa is considered a generational talent while Haskins is a work in progress. Maybe the new coach wants his own passer rather than one bequeathed to him.

[Riggo#44]

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I see logic in drafting Tua.

 

Agree to disagree on this, but fantastic debate this morning!

[757SeanTaylor21]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I'm not underrating Young, that's for sure.

 

I'm not underrating Tua's injuries - because I'm not a doctor. I just know Deshaun Watson was tabbed as too injury prone... and I wish he was our QB. The QB position is such a different animal, man. It just is. 

 

I think you're overrating Haskins. For the team's sake, I hope you're right and I'm wrong. 

 

But you're thinking short term, aren't you?

 

If Haskins is as good as people think he is, you can get compensation. Sounds to me, like the way people think of him here, a second rounder is easy to get. I wouldn't keep him on the roster. He folds when he's the back up. We saw it last year.

 

Two edge rushers sounds great right now, but when we start dishing out deals to pay defensive linemen, that is less appealing. in 4 years we have to pay Sweat. In 5 years we have to pay Young. After next season, we have to pay (or get rid of) Allen. The year after that is Daron Payne. 

 

In four years, McLaurin and Haskins are up. 

 

These are all guys in big money positions. 

 

Young will cost less than Tua on second contracts. So that much I can agree with. But Edge in total would likely account for more of our cap dollars than the quarterback position would. That or close. 

 

Lots of chess moves to think about here.

 

 

 

I mean green bay has money tied into Preston's smith, z smith...rodgers..their OTs...they got jaire coming up.. they signed amos...chiefs got mahomes contract coming up..they signed tyreek.  They got frank clark signed I believe...chris jones is due now. I mean at any point we can resign these players that we need to resign. I frankly dont think that sweat would be a huge signing...but I'm more of a mind that a great d line is number 1 way to stop any great qb. Mahomes literally did just enough to squeak in a win. And he wasnt particularly good in any fashion. I think overall we can agree that in any fashion we gonna have players that walk.

 

I dont think that tua and his injuries equals a greater upside than haskins developing. Cause either way...its a crap shoot . But we already got one. Young over kerrigan is a tremendous upgrade though.. 

[goskins10]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

I'm not underrating Young, that's for sure.

 

I'm not underrating Tua's injuries - because I'm not a doctor. I just know Deshaun Watson was tabbed as too injury prone... and I wish he was our QB. The QB position is such a different animal, man. It just is. 

 

I think you're overrating Haskins. For the team's sake, I hope you're right and I'm wrong. 

 

I get what you are saying but the injury concerns for Tua are for real. Without injury, I would be with you 100%. But he is coming off a horrific injury. It's not a guarantee he can even play the first year. 

 

The risk is just not worth it and I would say that whether we had Haskins or not. Honestly for me Haskins has nothing to do with it because if they really think Tua is that much better than Haskins then they have to take him. But they better be right. This fan base will be apoplectic. Granted, fan reaction is not the best reason to make football moves. But this is Ron's first draft pick as a Redskins HC. He can't afford to take unnecessary chances - at least i don't think so. So I think you have to take Chase, unless and only unless you are certain Tua can be your guy and is a clear upgrade over Haskins. 

 

I do not think people are thinking Haskins is a lock by any means. But he did enough to deserve a chance to be that guy. For me, I think Tua is just too high risk at #2. 

 

I will say this, if they draft Tua, they better jettison Haskins immediately. I do not want another Robert/Kirk thing here. What a disaster. 

[JSSkinz]

8 hours ago, Califan007 said:

  On 12/22/2019 at 1:18 PM, JSSkinz said:

So relieving to see Haskins come out and pick up right where he left off last week.  He's developing week by week.

It's too bad he couldn't finish out the season but I liked the way he was trending.

 

With that being said I want the team to do what's best for its long term success and not pass up opportunity because they made a mistake (hypothetically) by drafting Haskins last year, if that means drafting Tua then so be it.

 

My gut tells me all the Tua talk is smoke and mirrors, we have to approach the draft in this manner regardless if we want Tua or not.

[Riggo#44]

6 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

This fan base will be apoplectic.

Its worse, we are apathetic.