FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Thinking Skins]

 

15 hours ago, SkinsFootball said:

I caught APs comments regarding Keenum and Haskins. My take is of course Keenum looks better running the offense in mini-camp. He should as he is a semi accomplish NFL vet. I'm most curious to see Haskins progression in training camp. If he has closed the gap in addition to have superior physical skills well then things get interesting.

This is where I am. Its always interesting to hear Gruden say something like Haskins "never makes the same mistake twice". What does that really mean? And is Haskins really gaining ground on Keenum? And more importantly what does Gruden want from the QB position? Is he satisfied with what Alex was doing last year? Josh? Colt? Kirk? I've read commentary about all of them and they've all had their flaws but the offense has looked decent to good under each of them. Ideally we'd have a QB putting up Kirk numbers but does that mean that we're going to have a QB not taking chances? Smith didn't take chances though and our offense looked horrible outside of AP (and maybe weeks 1-2, which is sad because when the games happened people were talking about how bad he looked and how many guys he missed - I'm talking about Smith here). 

 

My thing though is that people act like Case is this established vet. he's a guy who caught lightning in a bottle once and otherwise has been a no-show in the NFL. He was run out of St Louis / LA, signed as a third string in Minny, and put up great numbers but Thielen was an unknown guy then and that defense and running game probably made him look better than he was. So is he the bar? I'm more curious about him having a bad camp because I think its more likely. Or even if its not "bad", just unremarkable.

 

And if Haskins is steadily improving but Keenum is just consistently meh, I wouldn't be getting behind all the lets not start Haskins until week X. I'd be saying lets start him, play him but lean heavily on the running game and not put too much on his plate or expect him to "win" games for us, especially early on. But with AP an Guice and a unestablished WR core, I'd bet more on the running game not matter who's at QB. 

[Malapropismic Depository]

4 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

My thing though is that people act like Case is this established vet. he's a guy who caught lightning in a bottle once and otherwise has been a no-show in the NFL. He was run out of St Louis / LA, signed as a third string in Minny, and put up great numbers but Thielen was an unknown guy then and that defense and running game probably made him look better than he was. So is he the bar? I'm more curious about him having a bad camp because I think its more likely. Or even if its not "bad", just unremarkable.

 

 

I am hesitant to believe his "up" year was a fluke.

I keep thinking about that Jon Gruden video where he was hyping him up right out of college, saying that a lot of teams are going to regret passing on him.

So on the mental backburner, I keep thinking maybe he has something of substance in there, that can be of value.

And that maybe he just needs to be in the right situation to take advantage of his skills. I'm not saying our team is equal to what he had in Minny, but maybe there's an element here that can help him thrive. For one, there's like a half dozen experienced QB's in the room, that he can draw upon, counting both players and coaches.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Malapropismic Depository]

Kind of a interesting pic, unless there's a history there.

I mean, ever since the draft, quite a heated rivalry was created between DH and this guy's brother's team.

[RandyHolt]

Wasn't Minnesota's defense kick ass during THE Case Keenum breakout year?

 

That affords lots of turnovers for, field position, possessions, TOP, willingness to take risks, etc.  Sure Keenum looked good but some QBs just look great in certain systems, or if they are used correctly.  Speaking of Mr RPO himself...  I hope Foles takes off in Jax and Wentz crash and burns... but Foles is the best example at just how sometimes how a QB is used can make them look great.   Is Jax smart enough to let him do what he did in Philly? I doubt it...

 

I bet it depends on the age of the OC. Over 50, nope you are using my playbook, son.

[Malapropismic Depository]

6 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Wasn't Minnesota's defense kick ass during THE Case Keenum breakout year?

 

That affords lots of turnovers for, field position, possessions, TOP, willingness to take risks, etc.

 

Yea, I think our defense can definitely be comparable to theirs this year, if things fall into place.

The big question is whether the offensive supporting cast can produce anything close to what Minny had.

If CT and Reed can stay healthy, that alone is decent production. But can our OL stay together, and can our wideouts contribute is the million dollar question, other than health.

[RandyHolt]

52 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Yea, I think our defense can definitely be comparable to theirs this year, if things fall into place.

The big question is whether the offensive supporting cast can produce anything close to what Minny had.

If CT and Reed can stay healthy, that alone is decent production. But can our OL stay together, and can our wideouts contribute is the million dollar question, other than health.

 

Yep.... our D could be special. It's why I really hope Jay unleashes them. Having them play an overall passive approach to keep overall scoring down, is not going to use many if not most of the players on D to their strengths. I understand our offense will not be dynamic and thus unable to come back from 21-0, but you know what, our defense can. Go aggressively for turnover at times, and trust the players and coaches we have in place. 

 

Who doesn't love watching our guys crush QBs and force turnovers?   If our offense is largely grounded, bend don't break will seal our fate, and we will lose 17-9 every week.  At some point, Jay would be prudent to let them try to win games for us. Give our offense momentum, energy, life, field possession, etc.

 

That's one thing the bend don't break DCs (cough Ron Lynn, Marvin Lewis, etc) forget, while beating their chests about only allowing 17 points per game.  The defense did nothing to energize their teammates, the home crowd, nothing to generate turnovers, wasted many studs on D, all while tiring themselves out, on purpose!

 

BDB is a recipe for failure. Otherwise, the ultra aggressive attacking defenses of the modern era, would never have been born.

 

 

[Commander Wolffe]

@RandyHolt I appreciate the discussion. I agree with your thought process and would like to see Reed more on the outside. If we are playing to the strength of the team from an offensive personnel standpoint then that is the solution. 

 

I'm hopefully to see more 3 WR sets and running out of that formation. If Reed is classified as a WR then so be it. He should be able to block corners in the run game in addition to his explosive route attributes. 

 

Open the field up for all of our playmakers and offensive skill positions. 

[RandyHolt]

Thanks I like talking @SkinsFootball

 

I am becoming more intrigued at moving guys around more. Curveballs at DC. I remember a Pats game and the first play of the season, Belly bunched 3 TEs at the far sideline. Gronk Aaron and some other dude.  2 became blockers and the 3rd was the receiver, as they destroyed the 2 tiny DBs trying to stuff the play. Of course my mind was blown but more wondering why only Belly will try something like that - 3 6'6" guys lined up vs 2 6'0 DBs.

 

Matt Flanagan may end up PS'd WRT how many snaps Sprinkle had last year, but is cut from the blocking TE cloth and should push Sprinkle.  With Vernon and Jordan, Sprinkle is not going to get many targets so HAS to excel at blocking. If he isn't, maybe a 6th OL is wise if the plan is to never target Sprinkle.  If Vernon and Jordan can't block, somehow just stop asking them to.  Get them out of the box.

I want to see common sense ingenuity and TE personnel grouping tells seems on the radar for Jay. With 2 pure hands and 1 or 2 pure blockers, maybe he needs to have one of each on the field together to leave DCs guessing.

 

Man I love watching Vernon Davis RAC... for an old big rig he stops on a dime and changes direction, and the little DBs just fly by. Revs up the ole engine going down Route 1 to the Vous, and simply zig zags down field.  Very impressive. Too bad he had that stone hands spell last season. 

 

Circling back on topic, a TE is a QBs best friend.  Big targets are security blankets. 

 

Re: Flanny - This guy looks like the missing link. He’s not a burner nor an explosive athlete, but he does the dirty work in the run game. He doesn’t have much of a route tree outside of pop passes up the seam, shovel passes, and flare outs. All I know from the cut ups is that DBs and linebackers want nothing to do with him on their run fits

 

[Skinsinparadise]

7 hours ago, SkinsFootball said:

@RandyHolt I appreciate the discussion. I agree with your thought process and would like to see Reed more on the outside. If we are playing to the strength of the team from an offensive personnel standpoint then that is the solution. 

 

I'm hopefully to see more 3 WR sets and running out of that formation. If Reed is classified as a WR then so be it. He should be able to block corners in the run game in addition to his explosive route attributes. 

 

Open the field up for all of our playmakers and offensive skill positions. 

 

Just re-watching some games.   Reed plays his share on the outside especially with trips on the other side.  I posted here a clip of Reed on the outside.  2 plays later he was on the outside again.  They seem to like him on the right side of the field mostly.  Sometimes with him lining in tight.  Sometimes on the numbers.  Sometimes beyond the numbers.  They also put Reed in motion a lot moving from one side to the other before the ball is snapped.  IMO if people are looking for more creativity then how they use Reed isn't part of that issue.   

 

They have some funky 2 back plays that I like, too.  I'd do more of them though.  One I liked where both Peterson and Thompson are in the backfield, Alex fakes a handoff to Peterson then takes off with the ball himself and then shuttles a pass to Thompson when the defender gets near him. Almost looks triple option like.   That looked cool to me.   

 

IMO from my amateur layman's stand point, the offense has some creativity but the personnel wasn't hot and the personnel groupings were too much of tell tale IMO.  The defense on the other hand at least judging by blitzes seemed vanilla.  You didn't really see much that's funky.  As for blitzes, Manusky's main thing is sending a middle linebacker up the A gap. And fire zones blitzes.  But opposing offenses seem ready for it.   I recall when Gregg was here for example, the blitzes could come from anywhere.  I recall Shawn Springs actually led the team in sacks one season.  

[RandyHolt]

Good stuff SIP - thanks for correcting the record. I think I blocked out much of what happened last season. It's how we survive as Skins fans, I suppose. 

 

So it sounds like we will see more of Jordan lined up wide right. WR is thin no matter what we see this summer.  I want more 2 back usage if AP Guice and CT are healthy.  RB will be the strength of the offense and want my vision of getting all our best players on the field at the same time given a test drive. Call it a track meet. 5OL + QB + AP Guice CT Reed + Richardson.

 

Defense yeah our blitzing was lame. It was by design, I am convinced now as Manusky played it safe.  We went from Haslet maniac cover 0 to Manusky bringing 1A a few times a game.  Sure we have a more viable front 4 now and so blitzing theoretically shouldn't be needed as often, but getting sacks is never easy.  I want to see blitzers attacking engaged OL / twist stunts. And I really want to see Air Norman vaulting DBs on corner blitzes dammit. Or at least let him return punts so we can re-live one of D. Green's finest moments.

 

Random Trivia what was the players nickname who forced #28 to add the first initial D to his uniform, which was retained long after the other Green was gone.

 

Answer: 

Spoiler

Touchdown! Tony Green

 

[Malapropismic Depository]

Strong words.

And a whole lot of "ifs".

 

 

[HardcoreZorn]

@Malapropismic Depository That’s a ridiculous take by Burleson lol. Eagles supporting cast over ours by a sizable margin. Cowboys better too. Giants comparable. I think we have the chance to have a top 15 supporting cast and not dead last like some of these rankings I’ve seen. The running game really could be special, and something tells me people are forgetting how awesome Peterson still looked last year and how much of a talent Guice is. Add in Mclaurin, and even Love later in the year, and now you have some much needed speed to go with Richardson, something we lacked greatly last year. That’s when Reed and CT really get going, but those are the biggest question marks on staying healthy. By no means is this a barebones supporting cast like I often see tossed around. Question marks for sure and certainly not better than a top 5 unit like the Eagles. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

On 7/18/2019 at 1:12 PM, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

I am hesitant to believe his "up" year was a fluke.

I keep thinking about that Jon Gruden video where he was hyping him up right out of college, saying that a lot of teams are going to regret passing on him.

So on the mental backburner, I keep thinking maybe he has something of substance in there, that can be of value.

And that maybe he just needs to be in the right situation to take advantage of his skills. I'm not saying our team is equal to what he had in Minny, but maybe there's an element here that can help him thrive. For one, there's like a half dozen experienced QB's in the room, that he can draw upon, counting both players and coaches.

 

 

 I would like to believe you but I just don't. There's a reason the Vikes went in another direction despite a great year from Keenum. He is who he is and last year he reverted to form.  By ever measuring stick that season in Minnesota was a fluke.  

[Darrell Green Fan]

50 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

@Malapropismic Depository That’s a ridiculous take by Burleson lol. Eagles supporting cast over ours by a sizable margin. Cowboys better too. Giants comparable. I think we have the chance to have a top 15 supporting cast and not dead last like some of these rankings I’ve seen. The running game really could be special, and something tells me people are forgetting how awesome Peterson still looked last year and how much of a talent Guice is. Add in Mclaurin, and even Love later in the year, and now you have some much needed speed to go with Richardson, something we lacked greatly last year. That’s when Reed and CT really get going, but those are the biggest question marks on staying healthy. By no means is this a barebones supporting cast like I often see tossed around. Question marks for sure and certainly not better than a top 5 unit like the Eagles. 

 

 

Another post i would love to agree with but just can't.   I think you would be hard pressed to find a worse WR group than this one.  Love to believe the rookie will be good, Quinn looks capable but we really don't know, I have high hopes for Cam Sims but preseason heroes are common and he has proven nothing.   Richardson stinks, and he's closest thing to a proven player in the group, the rest are total question marks.  

 

Now we get to the OL where the Trent situation remains unresolved and there is not one viable replacement on the roster. They appear to have no starting left guard,  Flowers is a risk because he was terrible at tackle and there is no real reason to believe he can be converted to a good starting guard. We only like our center because he is better than what they've had in the past but if we were honest we'd have to admit he is an average starting center and nothing more.  So even though the RBs are very good with that OL and no passing threats they can be stopped. 

 

As we all know CT and Reed are probably their best weapons along with AP and of course they can't stay healthy and Reed even when healthy produced little last year and can't block. And these are about the best weapons we have.  Ouch.  

 

 

[HardcoreZorn]

11 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

Another post i would love to agree with but just can't.   I think you would be hard pressed to find a worse WR group than this one.  Love to believe the rookie will be good, Quinn looks capable but we really don't know, I have high hopes for Cam Sims but preseason heroes are common and he has proven nothing.   Richardson stinks, and he's closest thing to a proven player in the group, the rest are total question marks.  

 

Now we get to the OL where the Trent situation remains unresolved and there is not one viable replacement on the roster. They appear to have no starting left guard,  Flowers is a risk because he was terrible at tackle and there is no real reason to believe he can be converted to a good starting guard. We only like our center because he is better than what they've had in the past but if we were honest we'd have to admit he is an average starting center and nothing more.  So even though the RBs are very good with that OL and no passing threats they can be stopped. 

 

As we all know CT and Reed are probably their best weapons along with AP and of course they can't stay healthy and Reed even when healthy produced little last year and can't block. And these are about the best weapons we have.  Ouch.  

 

Well you failed to mention two guys I’m probably most bullish about in McLaurin and Harmon. And I guarantee you Josh Doctson is a 1000 and 8 type of guy if we actually threw him the damn ball. Let’s let him go to the Patriots or Packers or Saints cause he sucks so much and watch him flourish on a team with a QB that will actually let him do what he does best, go up and get the ball. And complain that’s he’s not running wide open and not throw it to him when that’s not his game. 

 

Richardson absolutely does not suck, his problem is that he literally can’t stay healthy for an entire season ever. Even dating back to Colorado the dude was always hurt. Anything he adds is gravy. But I could see Doctson McLaurin and Quinn/Harmon/Simms looking much better on paper after the year than before. And none of this touches on how talented our run game is, which is the reason we could be top half of the league in the first place. Will we, IDK. Overall point is that Burleson is ludicrous, but we aren’t as bad as you say we are. And tough to take you seriously when you leave off Martin as a LG candidate, and Harmon and Mclaurin and Love as weapons. Also tough to digest a post that is looking at everything as negative as possible. Jay Gruden who’s a pretty straight shooter, seems far more pleased with that group than you do. I’ll probably side with his take on this one. 

[Vanguard]

Im never going to hate on media showing us love.  How often does that happen?  Go Burleson!!!!!!!

[Skinsinparadise]

On 7/19/2019 at 8:04 AM, RandyHolt said:

Good stuff SIP - thanks for correcting the record. I think I blocked out much of what happened last season. It's how we survive as Skins fans, I suppose. 

 

So it sounds like we will see more of Jordan lined up wide right. WR is thin no matter what we see this summer.  I want more 2 back usage if AP Guice and CT are healthy.  RB will be the strength of the offense and want my vision of getting all our best players on the field at the same time given a test drive. Call it a track meet. 5OL + QB + AP Guice CT Reed + Richardson.

 

 

Thanks.  As for Jay, I think he has his pluses and minuses.   But I'll give him this its clear as heck that neither Kirk or Alex took as many chances as he'd like.  Kirk joked about if he did what Jay wanted he'd throw 60 interceptions or something like that and beat guys said Jay was privately pulling his hair out about Alex's conservativism. 

 

Oddly enough Keenum and Colt strike me more up Jay's alley at least in theory because they are more gun slingers.  I think Jay overdoing it with the runs on first down gives the vibe that he's a conservative dude by nature.  And on that front he is.  But some who are close with Jay say he's actually an aggressive dude by nature with the passing game.

 

And I'd double down on that point on the defensive side of the ball, too.  The year they fired Barry at the end of that year -- Finlay said at the end of a game during that season he could hear Jay screaming at Barry.  I was at the Dallas game that year close to the sidelines and saw Jay ream out Barry. One beat guy said that Jay even though he is close to Manusky is frustrated by the D's performance and might have been ok with those interviews with potential coordinators this year.  My point is I doubt its Jay who is pushing Manusky to run a conservative scheme if anything I think Jay is hands off that side of the ball.   And I recall some saying at the time Jay's frustration with Barry was he wasn't aggressive enough.

 

Some have joked that Jay has always wanted to ride with Colt (no pun intended) and he might finally get his chance.  Personally, I can see that Colt might fit Jay's mindset the best.  However, I just don't think the dude is very good.  I have more hope with Keenum since at least he had one good year where you'd think maybe lightening could strike twice.   As for Haskins, I'd sit him early to learn.

 

While I've been pro McLaurin and Harmon well before we drafted them.  Ironically I had a long post pushing McLauriin the morning before he was drafted.   I find Sims intriguing, too.  Hard call though to see rookie receivers excel right off the bat.  So I see the receiver position as a wildcard.  I was one of the sign Paul Richardson guys the year we signed him.  That is likely a mistake on my end.  Not because he isn't good but because he hasn't shown he can stay healthy in his career.   If Richardson though stays healthy, and Quinn stays healthy and Doctson steps up, I think they'd be fine.  If McLaurin or Harmon emerge I think they will be better than fine at receiver.

 

For me my concern is the O line.  They obviously got to settle things with Trent (and I think they will) but if Trent misses his standard it seems 4 games and another guy gets hurt -- I think our depth is weaker than the past with Nsekhe gone and Flowers looking shaky in minicamp.   

 

For me the offense has a lot of wildcards.  If they get very lucky like Keenum shows flashes of his 2017 season, the O line stays healthy for a change and one of the rookies emerges fast then I think they can go 9-7.  But if Keenum or Colt (I am assuming now Haskins doesn't start but if he does, he's a wildcard, too) look like they have for most of their career, the O line goes for another rodeo like their recent bout of injuries or close to it, and the young receivers take time to emerge -- then to me it could be 6-10.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bakedtater1]

Carson wentz begins to crash n  burn week 1..skins d gonna get em!

[Darrell Green Fan]

14 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

Well you failed to mention two guys I’m probably most bullish about in McLaurin and Harmon. And I guarantee you Josh Doctson is a 1000 and 8 type of guy if we actually threw him the damn ball. Let’s let him go to the Patriots or Packers or Saints cause he sucks so much and watch him flourish on a team with a QB that will actually let him do what he does best, go up and get the ball. And complain that’s he’s not running wide open and not throw it to him when that’s not his game. 

 

Richardson absolutely does not suck, his problem is that he literally can’t stay healthy for an entire season ever. Even dating back to Colorado the dude was always hurt. Anything he adds is gravy. But I could see Doctson McLaurin and Quinn/Harmon/Simms looking much better on paper after the year than before. And none of this touches on how talented our run game is, which is the reason we could be top half of the league in the first place. Will we, IDK. Overall point is that Burleson is ludicrous, but we aren’t as bad as you say we are. And tough to take you seriously when you leave off Martin as a LG candidate, and Harmon and Mclaurin and Love as weapons. Also tough to digest a post that is looking at everything as negative as possible. Jay Gruden who’s a pretty straight shooter, seems far more pleased with that group than you do. I’ll probably side with his take on this one. 

 

Jay Gruden also had nice things to say about Matt Jones  and every other player he has had on the roster.   Jay may be more honest and open than most but he also inflates his players just like every coach who ever lived has.  His comment on the receivers means nothing. 

 

I really liked the Josh Doctson pick at the time but he had had every chance to prove himself and just didn't get it done. And it's not because they have not thrown him the ball.  A WR needs to run precise patterns and get open, there's more to the position than just going up and getting it.    Obviously he can't do this and his time is about up here, he has had plenty of time to prove himself and it just didn't happened.  

 

You are making huge assumptions.  Not one player you named here has proven anything at this level, including the rookie OL which is why I did not mention them.   Sure the rookies MAY be good,  hope you are right as I really liked the picks too, but again that's still a question mark. The Trent situation is stil there and there is not one viable option to replace him, even if he returns the lack of backups at OT is a huge problem especially given Trent's injury history.  There is no proven player at LG, just players they hope will work out,  and the center is simply average.  Right now this is a terrible WR group, even when healthy Richardson produced little.  In 7 games he had 20 receptions, for his career he has 115 catches in 54 games.  This stinks for a starting WR in this league today, not my opinion really it's kind of a fact.  When a player like that is your established player and every other receiver is unproven or unproductive that's a bad group of receivers by any measuring stick.   

[bakedtater1]

What happens if we get the first over all pick next year and Tua declares?

[Malapropismic Depository]

2 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

What happens if we get the first over all pick next year and Tua declares?

 

We trade it for 8 draft picks

[bakedtater1]

44 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

We trade it for 8 draft picks

Hey now that's an idea..just if we weren't the redskins..

[HoggLife]

3 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

What happens if we get the first over all pick next year and Tua declares?

I just can't see this happening.  But playing the what if game.  You draft Tua. Id rather have the problem of having to find out whis better between him and Haskins then possibly Haskins being a bust and not having a franchise QB for years or decades again. 

[RandyHolt]

If we get the top overall, trade the pick for a kings ransom IF Haskins has shown he can be the man, and we know who his coach and playbook will be for the next year or 2.

 

If Haskins hasn't developed much at all over the year, no brainer we take the best QB out there, and trade Haskins for at worst what should be a 2nd rounder. Or, hold him and let him stew like we did to Cousins if we are only getting low balls. Wait until injury strikes, and act accordingly.