The current status of the Redskins o-line.

[Fresh8686]

14 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

He had surgery, fantastic. I am optimistic as well. Despite his lingering injury all year long he contributed, albeit not to his 2015 superstar like standard. But he toughed it out never complained, and think a healthy Reed will easily be our most feared target in the passing game.  We neeeeed him back to unlock our offense.  

 

Especially if our hands TE Vernon Davis, has stone hands again this year.

 

 

Yup.

I'm also hoping with a healthy Richardson, plus the addition of McLaurin we can stretch the field enough to open up the middle more for Reed to eat like back when we had D Jax. Him and Alex had hardly any chemistry last year and not being available during camp was part of that problem. So the above, with a healthy camp adds in some of those missing ingredients for some offensive success... hopefully.

[The Rook]

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 9:50 PM, Jericho said:

 

Not really sure who this is referring to. Doctson would be the one obvious "wasted" pick. But looking at the least 6 years or so, Trey Quinn was picked with the last pick in the draft, Robert Davis in the late 6th round, Crowder in the mid-4th, Evan Spencer in the later 6th, and Ryan Grant in the 5th. Grant and Crowder turned out just fine for their draft positions, Crowder specifically doing quite well. So are we really squabbling over late 6th and 7th round picks? Spencer was a wasted pick, but are we really saying the entire OL hinged on late 6th and 7th rounders we missed out on (it's too early to really judge Davis or Quinn). Besides Doctson, the last decent pick to be "wasted" on a WR was a 3rd rounder in 2011 on Leonard Hankerson. Unless we're already calling this year's third rounder, Terry McLaurin, a bust. 

 

The team's current WRs do suck, but that's in part because the team hasn't invested in the position. One first rounder in the last 8 drafts. One third rounder in the last 8 drafts and he's a rookie this year. One four rounder, which was Crowder. One fifth rounder in Grant. That's it. Everything else is 6th or later. No wonder the WRs suck. No investment and the one big pick did pan out.

 

I guess it is because I have a deeper/longer feel for the poor drafting of WR's. I'm not squabbling over recent 6th/7th rounders, it is the poor record in general for the wasted "investments". - It's not just Josh Doctson, but Desmond Howard (the number 4 pick of the draft), Michael Westbrook (also the number 4 pick of the draft), Rod Gardner (Mr. 50-50), Taylor Jacobs, Malcolm Kelly and Devin Thomas.  These are all 1st and 2nd round "It's a swing and a miss" WR's for this franchise.  This type of failure with those high picks reverberate for years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Rook

[carex]

10 hours ago, The Rook said:

 

I guess it is because I have a deeper/longer feel for the poor drafting of WR's. I'm not squabbling over recent 6th/7th rounders, it is the poor record in general for the wasted "investments". - It's not just Josh Doctson, but Desmond Howard (the number 4 pick of the draft), Michael Westbrook (also the number 4 pick of the draft), Rod Gardner (Mr. 50-50), Taylor Jacobs, Malcolm Kelly and Devin Thomas.  These are all 1st and 2nd round "It's a swing and a miss" WR's for this franchise.  This type of failure with those high picks reverberate for years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Rook

 

decades ago.  The OL we might have drafted with those picks would be long retired

[goskins10]

16 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

He had surgery, fantastic. I am optimistic as well. Despite his lingering injury all year long he contributed, albeit not to his 2015 superstar like standard. But he toughed it out never complained, and think a healthy Reed will easily be our most feared target in the passing game.  We neeeeed him back to unlock our offense.  

 

Especially if our hands TE Vernon Davis, has stone hands again this year.

 

 

 

Yea, Davis had 3 drops in 36 targets - almost 10%. In fairness he had about the same drop % at Thompson (5 in 55 targets) and Crowder (4 in 49 targets). I know people like to claim Doctson has a drop problem, but he had 3 drops in 78 targets - 3.8%. He was only behind Reed who had 3 drops in 84 targets or 3.6%. Apparently a single drop in the KC game 2 yrs ago counts for 10+ drops a season to some fans, facts be damned. 

 

Interestingly Davis led all receivers in yds per reception at 14.7 (347 yds on 25 receptions). 

 

 

[London Kev]

LT: I think (hope?) that the Trent situation gets resolved and he will be ready to go come training camp.

LG: This will be one of the most interesting battles in TC and may the best man win. I have no preference as to who it should be.

C :  This is Chase's position to lose. He's a good center and is also very durable (didn't miss a down last year).

RG: No-one is gonna upstage The Scherff.

RT: Probably Moses again, but I wouldn't mind if he was beaten out in TC. I think that he's a good RT, but he anticipates the snap far too much. He's a false start waiting to happen and seems to get away with even more than he actually gets called for.

 

Overall I'm happy with the O-Line and am looking forward to the upcoming LG battle.

[goskins10]

3 hours ago, London Kev said:

LT: I think (hope?) that the Trent situation gets resolved and he will be ready to go come training camp.

LG: This will be one of the most interesting battles in TC and may the best man win. I have no preference as to who it should be.

C :  This is Chase's position to lose. He's a good center and is also very durable (didn't miss a down last year).

RG: No-one is gonna upstage The Scherff.

RT: Probably Moses again, but I wouldn't mind if he was beaten out in TC. I think that he's a good RT, but he anticipates the snap far too much. He's a false start waiting to happen and seems to get away with even more than he actually gets called for.

 

Overall I'm happy with the O-Line and am looking forward to the upcoming LG battle.

 

I am very close to your list: 

 

LT - Trent - No doubt here. The current strife is a bump in the road. They make this happen. If they do not, it's likely to be a FA, or someone not currently on the team. 

LG - I do have a preference. I expect one of the 2 draft picks to win this job but I want and expect it to be Wes Martin. Flowers is a possibility but I really hope he gets beat out. 

C - Chase - Not much discussion here. 

RG - Brandon S. He is a beast. 

RT - Likely Moses. He led the league in penalties last year with 14. See chart below.  But in fairness he only had 5 all of 2017. He had 7 in 2016. But I would love to see the guy get beat out. But that's not likely. We will have to wait a few mix.

 

 

[The Rook]

4 hours ago, carex said:

 

decades ago.  The OL we might have drafted with those picks would be long retired

 

Sigh

 

Here's what I said:

Some general thoughts:

The years of wasted picks on crappy WR's instead of Oline and Dline continues to echo throughout the system. 

 

If you don't think failure of first and second round picks don't cascade through the years, we just have different opinions.  The selection of Doctson is a great example.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Rook.

[theTruthTeller]

On 6/9/2019 at 10:16 AM, SkinsGuy said:

 

If you include a sixth year (the 2014 draft), that would bring in Morgan Moses, a 3rd round pick and a pro bowler.

 

So that would be 8 players in six years. Three of whom are now starters and two are pro bowlers.

 

...

I don't think Moses has ever made the pro-bowl, not even as an alternate.  And there are generally quite a few alternates on the OL.  I would have to rate him as tough-as-nails and super-smart, but only a middle of the pack starter.

[London Kev]

2 hours ago, goskins10 said:

LG - I do have a preference. I expect one of the 2 draft picks to win this job but I want and expect it to be Wes Martin. Flowers is a possibility but I really hope he gets beat out. 

 

Yeah, thinking more about it I would be happy if it was Martin.  Even though I'm a city boy, I do understand country strong.  He was a two-time captain, seems to have a good brain in his head and just kinda looks the part as well.

 

Thanks for the penalty stats on Moses. To be honest, I was a little surprised that he 'only' had seven false starts.  I was sure that it was closer to one a game.  Seven is still too many, but maybe I need to cut him some slack.

[SkinsGuy]

2 hours ago, theTruthTeller said:

I don't think Moses has ever made the pro-bowl, not even as an alternate.  And there are generally quite a few alternates on the OL.  I would have to rate him as tough-as-nails and super-smart, but only a middle of the pack starter.

 

Huh.. I thought he made one.

 

Oh well. My originial point is the same. Just minus one Pro Bowl appearance.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

I posted some of this elsewhere.  To me the problem with the O line is depth.  Arguably the last two seasons were derailed by O line injuries.  I think there is a better than 50% chance it gets derailed by the same thing again where we have Bruce say again we were snake bitten and if only we could stay healthy -- some something like did you guys see how much better we played in the first half of the season when we had all our guys.    

 

I think if healthy they will be fine.  But what's the chance of that?

 

Ty Nsekhe IMO has been the unsung hero for years.  He's made the idea that Trent will miss give or take 25% of the season palatable.  Ditto bailing out Moses when he got banged up.  In the last 2 years he's arguably also become their top reserve at guard.

 

If you judge him by PFF metrics (PFF says their O line metrics tend to be the least questioned of all positions they grade), he's the best run blocker on the team and their third best pass blocker.

 

Who do we have now to bail out Trent or Moses?  Christian is a project and looked awful last season -- not saying I rule him out but if he hasn't improved from last season then he's somewhere between bad and a disaster right now.  Eric Flowers from those who watched camp said he was beat like a rag doll, one beat guy said he's the worst player he's ever seen in camp.   Christian's pass blocking grade was in the 40s.  So is Bergstrom.  That's not good. 

 

Judging by PFF metrics our starting RBs are bad pass blockers with the exception of Thompson being so so.  And Jordan Reed PFF metric wise is the worst pass blocking TE in the NFL.

 

Cooley among others aren't that high on the Alabama guard they drafted.  I haven't watched him, yet to make up my own mind.  He does like Martin so hopefully he's the answer at LG.  But my main feat is one or both the tackles getting hurt.  In the past that didn't end up a disaster.  It became a disaster when they lost a tackle and a guard in part because you can't put Ty everywhere.  But now without Ty?   I think if anything they came into this season with a weaker and more vulnerable O line.    So if they complain about it later and are bewildered by it --- they get zero sympathy from me.

 

That's my long winded way of saying I would have done something in FA to offset losing Nsekhe because I think losing him is a big deal considering the context of Trent's health in particular.  If we got Eric Flowers or Bergstrom or Christian playing LT for a chunk of the season the odds are those games are going to go south fast -- let alone if both Moses and Trent are out.  

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Cooley among others aren't that high on the Alabama guard they drafted.  I haven't watched him, yet to make up my own mind.  He does like Martin so hopefully he's the answer at LG.

 

 

We need another option, and hopefully one that can still develop and improve at the backup G/C spot.  We know Bergstrom can't.  We saw Chase struggle when shifted over to LG so Bergstrom could play C.  So at this point, that doesn't seem like an option we can count on.

 

Pierschbacher has played at least a full season at both Guard and Center.  So he has experience, and he should...theoretically...develop into someone who can fill in and let the starters stay where they're better.  It fits a Need spot depth-wise that we lacked last season.

 

[Est.1974]

3 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

Pierschbacher has played at least a full season at both Guard and Center.  So he has experience, and he should...theoretically...develop into someone who can fill in and let the starters stay where they're better.  It fits a Need spot depth-wise that we lacked last season.

 

I wanted us to draft Pierschbacher. Sleeper pick for us, I think he surprises a whole load of people and gets a starting role.

[JaxJoe]

13 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Cooley among others aren't that high on the Alabama guard they drafted.  I haven't watched him, yet to make up my own mind. 

It’s opinions like Cooley’s that make me go back and look at cut-ups of Piersbacher and scratch my head as to why he (Cooley) isn’t  “that high” on him. Obviously, Piersbacher dropped to the 5th round so he clearly has deficiencies, but he will be solid depth early in his career with a certain chance to start in a year or two. Put into perspective, Piersbacher played opposite Johnathon Allen, Daron Payne, and Quinen Williams for four years in addition to the NCAA’s best of the best each year like Clemson. Below is a good analysis on his technique and discuses his ability in inside zone, outside zone, pass block, run block power, 2nd level effectiveness, etc. Enjoy. 

 

 

[skinny21]

11 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

We need another option, and hopefully one that can still develop and improve at the backup G/C spot.  We know Bergstrom can't.  We saw Chase struggle when shifted over to LG so Bergstrom could play C.  So at this point, that doesn't seem like an option we can count on.

 

Pierschbacher has played at least a full season at both Guard and Center.  So he has experience, and he should...theoretically...develop into someone who can fill in and let the starters stay where they're better.  It fits a Need spot depth-wise that we lacked last season.

 

Not that I think he’s the answer you’re looking for, but for now, I wonder if the answer is a guy SIP didn’t mention... the ‘other’ Ty - Tyler Catalina.  

Of course this is more about G/T, I’m guessing Piersbacher will backup Roullier. 

 

Only one one season of high level college ball for Catalina  (no offense to Rhode Island) after his transfer to Georgia, so I expect he had a sharper learning curve than some others.  With time in the system and gaining strength, I’m guessing he’s the least worst option to take over Nsheke’s role.  

[carex]

Anyone have any opinions on Timon Parris?

[ThePackisback]

It could be worse. You guys could have our O line.

[bakedtater1]

6 minutes ago, ThePackisback said:

It could be worse. You guys could have our O line.

Could be even worse than that and have your QB..

18 minutes ago, carex said:

Anyone have any opinions on Timon Parris?

Is he on the roster?

[carex]

1 hour ago, bakedtater1 said:

Could be even worse than that and have your QB..

Is he on the roster?

 

Parris is still on the roster, along with Casey Dunn

[Thinking Skins]

2 hours ago, carex said:

 

Parris is still on the roster, along with Casey Dunn

I've been hearing good things about Catalina and Parris. Nothing exceptional but they did allow the qbs time to complete passes in practice, which is more than flowers. JP had them as the backup tackles I think assuming that Christian was on PUP. 

[ThePackisback]

4 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

Could be even worse than that and have your QB..

Is he on the roster?

We can't even win with Rodgers.

[bakedtater1]

39 minutes ago, ThePackisback said:

We can't even win with Rodgers.

Neither could we that's my point

[XxSpearheadxX]

[Veryoldschool]

On 6/13/2019 at 8:59 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

I posted some of this elsewhere.  To me the problem with the O line is depth.  Arguably the last two seasons were derailed by O line injuries.  I think there is a better than 50% chance it gets derailed by the same thing again where we have Bruce say again we were snake bitten and if only we could stay healthy -- some something like did you guys see how much better we played in the first half of the season when we had all our guys.    

 

I think if healthy they will be fine.  But what's the chance of that?

 

Ty Nsekhe IMO has been the unsung hero for years.  He's made the idea that Trent will miss give or take 25% of the season palatable.  Ditto bailing out Moses when he got banged up.  In the last 2 years he's arguably also become their top reserve at guard.

 

If you judge him by PFF metrics (PFF says their O line metrics tend to be the least questioned of all positions they grade), he's the best run blocker on the team and their third best pass blocker.

 

Who do we have now to bail out Trent or Moses?  Christian is a project and looked awful last season -- not saying I rule him out but if he hasn't improved from last season then he's somewhere between bad and a disaster right now.  Eric Flowers from those who watched camp said he was beat like a rag doll, one beat guy said he's the worst player he's ever seen in camp.   Christian's pass blocking grade was in the 40s.  So is Bergstrom.  That's not good. 

 

Judging by PFF metrics our starting RBs are bad pass blockers with the exception of Thompson being so so.  And Jordan Reed PFF metric wise is the worst pass blocking TE in the NFL.

 

Cooley among others aren't that high on the Alabama guard they drafted.  I haven't watched him, yet to make up my own mind.  He does like Martin so hopefully he's the answer at LG.  But my main feat is one or both the tackles getting hurt.  In the past that didn't end up a disaster.  It became a disaster when they lost a tackle and a guard in part because you can't put Ty everywhere.  But now without Ty?   I think if anything they came into this season with a weaker and more vulnerable O line.    So if they complain about it later and are bewildered by it --- they get zero sympathy from me.

 

That's my long winded way of saying I would have done something in FA to offset losing Nsekhe because I think losing him is a big deal considering the context of Trent's health in particular.  If we got Eric Flowers or Bergstrom or Christian playing LT for a chunk of the season the odds are those games are going to go south fast -- let alone if both Moses and Trent are out.  

 

Who needs a healthy, functioning OL in 2019?  Not the Redskins, they are content to say they got a great one under contract and those debilitating injuries in 2017 & 2018 on the OL were just bad luck and worse luck that it has a occurred on multiple seasons.  Nothing to worry about.  Such a freaky occurrence couldn't possibly happen again and of course why worry about it since the bus station is full of big eaters that can stand in for an NFL OL in a pinch.  Let's focus on what's really important and talk about the great single-season Haskins had at OSU and how they drafted Haskins without moving up in the draft, now that's how winning off the field is done!

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Who needs a healthy, functioning OL in 2019?  Not the Redskins, they are content to say they got a great one under contract and those debilitating injuries in 2017 & 2018 on the OL were just bad luck and worse luck that it has a occurred on multiple seasons.  Nothing to worry about.  Such a freaky occurrence couldn't possibly happen again and of course why worry about it since the bus station is full of big eaters that can stand in for an NFL OL in a pinch.  Let's focus on what's really important and talk about the great single-season Haskins had at OSU and how they drafted Haskins without moving up in the draft, now that's how winning off the field is done!

 

I think the O line IMO has been this team's paper tiger for years.   Trent is great but he always misses games.  I doubt it's going to improve as he pushes past 30.  Scherff is a stud.  hopefully his injury last year becomes a one time thing as opposed to a new trend.    Moses I think is OK but slightly overrated.  He tends to play through his injuries but he's had to leave multiple games.  LG has been a mess for years.  I hear good things about Martin but he's a complete unknown.   Roullier is decent at center but IMO far from an All Pro.   To me the issue is the depth.  And the key supplement to the O line as to blocking is the TE position and that's a weak one if we got again Jordan and Vernon starting.  As i mentioned judging by PFF metrics, Jordan Reed is the worst pass blocking TE in the league.  And none of our RB's are good pass blockers either judging by PFF metrics. 

 

O line is arguably the one position where injuries hurt the most because the position is so dependent on chemistry.  So losing guys hurts from that stand point.  But then you add the component that all our backups are arguably jags -- so injuries really can do this unit in.  The one super sub we had was Ty Nsekhe.  He become the top sub at both tackle and guard.  He's gone now.   Do I think losing Lauvao and Nsekhe and replacing them with Flowers and 4th and 5th round guards will help the O line this season?  You got me.  But in theory they got weaker not stronger IMO considering LT is the most important spot on the O line and we lost the one guy who can seamlessly come in to that spot and not miss a beat.

 

I recall being at the Cincy game in 2012 when Trent got hurt in mid game.  We brought in a JAG sub to replace him and RG3 got immediately sacked on back to back plays.  I was close to the sidelines and it looked like reading Shanny and Trent's body language that he was urged to go back in and play hurt otherwise RG3 would get killed out there. 

 

So am with you on the O line is a big deal and is lacking.  I am also with you that a young QB needs to have an O line they can trust to develop.  Where I might depart from you is I am OK with BPA approach to the draft and building up multiple units when a team has multiple weaknesses like we do. It's hard to fix everything at once.  So if it takes them longer to handle O line, I am OK with it in theory.  But...

 

However, I do agree with you that they haven't done enough over the years for the unit.  And the larger point for me is that according to some who cover this team the FO doesn't see this as a rebuilding team but a win now team.  So from that perspective, what they've done at the O line has been weak IMO.  Because in my view if they are all about win now -- to me their O line situation can easily foil another season.  Not only do I think its possible for the same thing to happen 3 years in a row as for injuries on the O line tanking the season -- I think its very likely to happen 3 seasons in a row.  And it's of their own making.   I'd have more sympathy for them if they said they were rebuilding still. But yeah it's supposedly about a win now season.   And if so to me that same ship is likely headed to the same rocks for the inevitable crash unless they get really lucky for a change.