The current status of the Redskins o-line.

[Veryoldschool]

 

 

 

2

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Not only do I think its possible for the same thing to happen 3 years in a row as for injuries on the O line tanking the season -- I think its very likely to happen 3 seasons in a row.  And it's of their own making.   I'd have more sympathy for them if they said they were rebuilding still. But yeah it's supposedly about a win now season.   And if so to me that same ship is likely headed to the same rocks for the inevitable crash unless they get really lucky for a change.  

 

Yup, I expect an OL collapse also, a hat trick.  I'll be surprised if it doesn't go this way, very pleasantly surprised.  I expect the OL will collapse again and my head will explode shortly after Halloween if not before.  Another point, let's remember even before the rash of injuries this past two seasons the OL was a weak run blocking group.  They never had the confidence and power to just drive the ball near the goal line.  When healthy this line can pass block well, that is its strength but healthy?  Why should we expect them to be able to play 16 games?

 

I can only conclude from their decisions that the owner and his senior advisors see things much differently.  They should know a lot more.  All we fans get to see are the games whereas they have doctor and trainer reports, practices, detailed film studies and professional coaching analysis and all the rest to help them understand what they have and what they need.  Surely they know a lot more about this than the rest of us.  I should have confidence they know what they are doing but after 20 years of Snyder, I expect them to be wrong.

[carex]

14 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Yup, I expect an OL collapse also, a hat trick.  I'll be surprised if it doesn't go this way, very pleasantly surprised.  I expect the OL will collapse again and my head will explode shortly after Halloween if not before.  Another point, let's remember even before the rash of injuries this past two seasons the OL was a weak run blocking group.  They never had the confidence and power to just drive the ball near the goal line.  When healthy this line can pass block well, that is its strength but healthy?  Why should we expect them to be able to play 16 games?

 

I can only conclude from their decisions that the owner and his senior advisors see things much differently.  They should know a lot more.  All we fans get to see are the games whereas they have doctor and trainer reports, practices, detailed film studies and professional coaching analysis and all the rest to help them understand what they have and what they need.  Surely they know a lot more about this than the rest of us.  I should have confidence they know what they are doing but after 20 years of Snyder, I expect them to be wrong.

 

This is not the 80s or 90s, you cannot just spend high draft picks on people to sit on the bench for years.  We come into this year needing one new starter and some depth.  We worked to acquire that

 

If you're right and we do get a third season of this crap, good news next season we can give you what you want.    Let Scherff go as a free agent cut Trent and Moses and save almost 18 mil, spend our 1st and 3rd on some OL and sign a couple free agents.  Cause that's the way you deal with injury prone players in this era.  You get them off the roster, and get new starters, you don't just have players who are just as good sitting on the bench to replace them

[Skinsinparadise]

@Veryoldschool

 

I agree with those who liked this last draft and push the BPA approach.  If they think Dwayne Haskins is a franchise QB than IMO indeed take the dude because good QBs are hard to find.  Ditto pass rushers, etc.  I agree with you from the stand point that the O line needs some upgrading and can easily foil this season.  I lean more towards your point when I take the whole drill of this is about winning now narrative that the beat guys have talked about and Jay has echoed.    If it's truly all abut winning now then the O line IMO can easily be the house of cards that derails the season.   And yes arguably it would be the same house of cards 3 seasons in a row. 

 

If they want to win now, IMO its easy to argue they got weaker at O line or at best treaded water this off season as opposed to improve on it.  Like I said, Ty Nsekhe for all intents and purposes is a half season starter.   He played 195 snaps at LT, 143 at LG -- he also played RG and RT.    Who is the tackle replacement now?  Heck after apparently an atrocious camp, the coaches have been telling the beat reporters privately (according to the reporters) well hey we didn't say Flowers can play tackle but we are hoping he can adjust to guard.    If so, the main guy at tackle who will likely play at least 5 games this year is Tony Bergstrom -- a dude according to PFF metrics is below average at everything.   Maybe Christian is the guy albeit beat reporters say they were told they still see him as a project. 

 

So to me all they really did is get weaker at tackle.  And they replaced injury prone Lauvao with 2 mid round picks and a flier who has been a bust in the NFL.  I mean yeah there is a chance Martin is an improvement on Lauvao.  But we don't know yet.  I think it's impossible though to argue that their depth has improved.    How could it have improved if their best sub by a mile is now gone?  The one player that they could insert at tackle or guard and not lose a beat is gone.   And its tough to argue that the same O lineman coming off of injuries and being a year older are slam dunk going to be healthier where we don't have to worry about injuries this time.  

 

My only disclaimer on that point is if the 4th round pick Wes Martin ends up being a stud.  As for judging the FO, if they said hey we can't fix it all at once.  We are still rebuilding and this isn't a win or else season -- then I'd have no qualm with their off season as to O line. But that doesn't seem to be the rap.  I'd give them a break if they talked hey we are rebuilding.  In my mind, they are rebuilding so I am not panicked about the O line because for me if they end up 6-10 or whatever it's not something that would surprise me.  However, from their point of view, I got zero sympathy if we are watching Bruce for the third year in a row talk about how snake bitten they are and have been hit with rotten luck.  To me it's not about rotten luck it's about having a fragile unit health wise without much behind it.   It doesn't matter to me how many state of the art recover centers they bring to the facility on that front. 

 

And to me the TE component is an underrated part of the problem.   We even heard Jay talk about TE being an issue this off season.  Yet, they as this moment are coming back with the same guys at TE.  I agree with those who say you can't fix everything in the draft.  But at the same time, that's why FA exists, too.   The Eagles had weaknesses at RB and WR and used the draft and trades to fix, it.   Nonetheless, I am in no panic about any of this if it results in a needed change in that FO.  If people want to argue that Christian in the third round and lets say Sprinkle in the 5th are attempts to fix it.  OK, I can ride that.  But they need to get it right, too or if not try something else.  On that point, I'll watch it play out some more before judging.  However, I suspect it's not going to have a happy ending.   

 

Judging by PFF metrics, Moses is the most overrated O lineman we have.  Aside from if I recall leading the league in false starts, he gave up 5 sacks, 9 QB hits and forced 19 QB hurries.  He had 15 penalties.  Some say he's the heir apparent to Trent but I don't see that.  Yes, he has long arms and can lock in to a defender.  But if he's worried enough about pass rushers coming from the right where he false starts like crazy to get an edge -- imagine on the left where you are dealing typically with the opponent's best pass rusher.  

 

Yeah run blocking wise according to PFF, this isn't a hot unit. It's not a bad unit either but by their metrics its so so to slightly above average.  Ironically according to their metrics their top run blocking O lineman was Ty Nsekhe who was the only one to score 70 or above on run blocking.   Aside from Christian ironically in his limited stint but he was atrocious as a pass blocker so not sure I'd take that trade off from a tackle. 

[Veryoldschool]

12 hours ago, carex said:

 

This is not the 80s or 90s, you cannot just spend high draft picks on people to sit on the bench for years.  We come into this year needing one new starter and some depth.  We worked to acquire that

 

If you're right and we do get a third season of this crap, good news next season we can give you what you want.    Let Scherff go as a free agent cut Trent and Moses and save almost 18 mil, spend our 1st and 3rd on some OL and sign a couple free agents.  Cause that's the way you deal with injury prone players in this era.  You get them off the roster, and get new starters, you don't just have players who are just as good sitting on the bench to replace them

 

Sitting on the bench?  It has been Trent Williams sitting on the bench, Moses was there when he wasn't playing with 2 gimpy ankles and last year Scherff got hurt also.  Had we drafted 2 or 3 OL high with the first picks as I wanted I think they would be starting by midseason in 2019.  On the other had Snyder and company could be right, it could happen sometime, it's possible some year, why not this year.

[carex]

43 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Sitting on the bench?  It has been Trent Williams sitting on the bench, Moses was there when he wasn't playing with 2 gimpy ankles and last year Scherff got hurt also.  Had we drafted 2 or 3 OL high with the first picks as I wanted I think they would be starting by midseason in 2019.  On the other had Snyder and company could be right, it could happen sometime, it's possible some year, why not this year.

 

until it happens you don't know.  That's not BPA OR picking for need, that's picking for POTENTIAL need and no one drafts that way.  If you are that insecure about your players, you get them off the roster

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

@Veryoldschool

 

I agree with those who liked this last draft and push the BPA approach.  If they think Dwayne Haskins is a franchise QB than IMO indeed take the dude because good QBs are hard to find.  Ditto pass rushers, etc.  I agree with you from the stand point that the O line needs some upgrading and can easily foil this season.  I lean more towards your point when I take the whole drill of this is about winning now narrative that the beat guys have talked about and Jay has echoed.    If it's truly all abut winning now then the O line IMO can easily be the house of cards that derails the season.   And yes arguably it would be the same house of cards 3 seasons in a row. 

 

Edit

 

My only disclaimer on that point is if the 4th round pick Wes Martin ends up being a stud.  As for judging the FO, if they said hey we can't fix it all at once.  We are still rebuilding and this isn't a win or else season -- then I'd have no qualm with their off season as to O line. But that doesn't seem to be the rap.  I'd give them a break if they talked hey we are rebuilding.  In my mind, they are rebuilding so I am not panicked about the O line because for me if they end up 6-10 or whatever it's not something that would surprise me.  However, from their point of view, I got zero sympathy if we are watching Bruce for the third year in a row talk about how snake bitten they are and have been hit with rotten luck.  To me it's not about rotten luck it's about having a fragile unit health wise without much behind it.   It doesn't matter to me how many state of the art recover centers they bring to the facility on that front. 

 

Edit

 

I pretty much agree with everything. But in fairness has the tam actually said they are in Win Now mode other than the normal we always want to win? This is certainly fan sentiment or at least fan evaluation. But I am not sure the team has said that. 

 

I have not seen anything from the team that says Bruce, or Jay or anyone else is gone if the team doesn't ________ (fill in the blank). Again, the fans have been saying this must win or Jay of gone or win or Bruce is gone, or they both may be gone. 

 

But this has all been fan speculation or "reports" from the local writers, at least that I have seen. The reason I say this is at least some of the moves - or lack of moves could be seen as validation the FO feels no pressure to win now or else. 

 

If you have something tangible from the team i would be interested in seeing it. But for me I am just seeing that kind of sense of urgency from the FO. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

I pretty much agree with everything. But in fairness has the tam actually said they are in Win Now mode other than the normal we always want to win? This is certainly fan sentiment or at least fan evaluation. But I am not sure the team has said that. 

 

 

I get your point.  But as you know, it's not something you put out in a press release as for it being a win now season -- aside from the platitude of every season is win now.   Teams if anything tend to obfuscate the idea that a coach or personnel person is in peril even when it becomes obvious that they are under the gun -- that's where its become a joke when an owner gives a coach or GM the famous "vote of confidence" saying their job isn't in danger -- considering that is often followed by a firing soon after.

 

So at that point it's a matter of us fans to decide if we are going to trust the outlets we have on that front.

 

A.  Multiple beat reporters who claim to have sources.

B.  Hints (because that's all you are going to get typically at best) from team spokespeople

C.  Just your gut based on knowing how ownership over the years have operated

 

It's the same issue really for anything going on behind the scenes.  Is the 2015-2017 starting QB and the FO really at an impasse in their contract?  Yeah Mike Jones, Finlay and just about everybody who covers the team says that's what people within the FO are privately telling them.  But heck do we really know?  The QB at the time wasn't talking.   Bruce is saying people are making it more complicated than it really is and is saying all is fine.  So what do we really know?  Well, for me if I hear something from a myriad of people who cover a team -- I'd put money that they are more likely right than wrong.  If it's mixed, then I hesitate.    It's not that I trust they will have every fact or even the correct angle behind the story right.  But if 7-8 different people are converging with the same general vibe.  Good chance there is some smoke to the fire. 

 

As I talked about in other threads, I have direct experience year after year in my own work to see how often reporters get things right.  And if I had to quantify it, they rarely get a story 100% right. It's usually give or take about 80% on the money.  Sometimes they will get it 100% wrong but rare.  Sometimes 100% right but rare.  If 5-6 reporters have more or less variations of the same story then good chance they are at least on the right tract.   It's almost impossible to get a story 100% right because different perspectives, different biases influence sources.  Plus what could be right today could be wrong tomorrow based on context and changing circumstances.

 

As for this issue specifically what do we have?

 

A. Every beat reporter that I can think of converging on Dan seeing this as a win now season.  

B.  And they have different angles for it.  All which make sense to me especially the one that Dan knows he can't allow a trend for TV ratings and stadium attendance decline and needs to reverse that ASAP -- especially in the midst of a stadium quest where he is trying to sell to governments that a stadium means good business for them.

C.  Bruce himself talking up their hot start last season and talking about injuries derailing it

D.  Multiple beat reporters saying they hear that behind the scenes the FO things they have a winning roster

E.  Jay himself twice referring to win now.  Once when talking about the draft.  The 2nd time in jest about Hard Knocks.

 

The only ambiguity I've noticed is the angle of why Dan sees it as a win now season.  But to me that doesn't matter.  Different sources can see it differently.  I am more interested in what's the aggregate emotion.  The narrative that seems strongest to me is the declining TV-stadium situation coupled with them chasing a stadium.  I am close with someone who has worked on some stadium deals in Florida and have talked to them specifically about the Redskins.  Their take is its a disaster to essentially try to be selling to any local government that a brand that looks to be declining will be a revenue winner for them.  That goes double in this current stadium environment where governments have become more wary and cynical about their economic value.  So for me the point is intuitive that Dan would see this as a win now season.  i am not sure he has the luxury of having another season of declining fan interest.

 

Could all these sources be playing the reporters?  Yeah anything is possible. Doubt it though.  To me the more likely thing if this doesn't end up true is all about context. By that meaning, something happens that turns the sale upside down.    Dan might see it as win now season at the moment.  But lets say they start off 2-6 and then bring in Haskins then end up 6-2 -- could that change the narrative?  Sure.  

 

I went off on a tangent so am not saying you are on the opposite side of these points.  I am just explaining why I am very confident that they beat reporters are on the money from what they've heard.  

[goskins10]

50 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I get your point.  But as you know, it's not something you put out in a press release as for it being a win now season -- aside from the platitude of every season is win now.   Teams if anything tend to obfuscate the idea that a coach or personnel person is in peril even when it becomes obvious that they are under the gun -- that's where its become a joke when an owner gives a coach or GM the famous "vote of confidence" saying their job isn't in danger -- considering that is often followed by a firing soon after.

 

So at that point it's a matter of the subject -- us fans to decide if we are going to trust the outlets we have on that front.

 

A.  Multiple beat reporters who claim to have sources.

B.  Hints (because that's all you are going to get typically at best) from team spokespeople

C.  Just your gut based on knowing how ownership over the years have operated

 

It's the same issue really for anything going on behind the scenes.  Is the 2015-2017 starting QB and the FO really at an impasse in their contract?  Yeah Mike Jones, Finlay and just about everybody who covers the team says that's what people within the FO are privately telling them.  But heck do we really know?  The QB at the time wasn't talking.   Bruce is saying people are making it more complicated than it really is and is saying all is fine.  So what do we really know?  Well, for me if I hear something form a myriad of people who cover a team -- I'd put money that they are more likely right than wrong.  If it's mixed, then I hesitate.    It's not that I trust they will have every fact or even the correct angle behind the story right.  But if 7-8 different people are converging with the same general vibe.  Good chance there is some smoke to the fire. 

 

As I talked about in other threads, I have direct experience year after year in my own work to see how often reporters get things right.  And if I had to quantify it, they rarely get a story 100% right. It's usually give or take about 80% on the money.  Sometimes they will get it 100% wrong but rare.  Sometimes 100% right but rare.  If 5-6 reporters have more or less variations of the same story then good chance they are at least on the right tract.   t's almost impossible to get a story 100% right because different perspectives, biases influence sources.  Plus what could be right today could be wrong tomorrow based on context and changing circumstances.

 

As for this issue specifically what do we have?

 

A. Every beat reporter that I can think of converging on Dan seeing this as a win now season.  

B.  And they have different angles for it.  All which make sense to me especially the one that Dan knows he can't allow a trend for TV ratings and stadium attendance decline and needs to reverse that ASAP -- especially in the midst of a stadium quest where he is trying to sell to governments that a stadium means good business for them.

C.  Bruce himself talking up their hot start last season and talking about injuries derailing it

D.  Multiple beat reporters saying they hear that behind the scenes the FO things they have a winning roster

E.  Jay himself twice referring to win now.  Once when talking about the draft.  The 2nd time in jest about Hard Knocks.

 

The only ambiguity I've noticed is the angle of why Dan sees it as a win now season.  But to me that doesn't matter.  Different sources can see it differently.  I am more interested in what's the aggregate emotion.  The narrative that seems strongest to me is the declining TV-stadium situation coupled with them chasing a stadium.  I am close with someone who has worked on some stadium deals in Florida and have talked to them specifically about the Redskins.  Their take is its a disaster to essentially try to be selling to any local government that a brand that looks to be declining will be a revenue winner for them.  That goes double in this current stadium environment where governments have becoming more wary and cynical about their economic value.  So for me the point is intuitive that Dan would see this as a win now season.  i am not sure he has the luxury of having another season of declining fan interest.

 

Could all these sources be playing the reporters?  Yeah anything is possible. Doubt it though.  To me the more likely thing if this doesn't end up true is all about context. By that meaning, something happens that turns the sale upside down.    Dan might see it as win now season at the moment.  But lets say they start off 2-6 and then bring in Haskins then end up 6-2 -- could that change the narrative?  Sure.  

 

I went off on a tangent so am not saying you are on the opposite side of these points.  I am just explaining why I am very confident that they beat reporters are on the money from what they've heard.  

 

Thanks for the response. I ask because there are at least a few moves that would suggest a longer term thinking - which if guys were worried about their jobs - and this is the crux right - they would make desperation moves. And maybe that's where I am having trouble. To me when I see people say "Win now mode" I see, they are scared for their jobs and are desperate. So they will do all they can to win this season and worry about the rest later if they are still here. 

 

The following to me are not the actions of a FO that is desperate: 

Not trading up for Haskins is a sign of incredible restraint for a team that is "win now" mode and had to have a QB. 

Drafting Bryce Love is a virtual lock to not have any impact on this season. 

The lack of urgency for the Oline - it is possible they have convinced themselves they did have a sense of urgency but we fans think otherwise. 

Not being aggressive in trying to do something with Alex's contract that opens CAP space now but makes life hell later. Then use that CAP space to get as few high priced 1 or 2 season FAs - like a S or a WR or an ILB. 

 

I am not saying the reports are all wrong. I think they may be a bit exaggerated to get people interested. Is the FO not concerned at all? I don't see that either. I guess for me this idea that the FO and Jay are in some kind of desperation mode due to an edict from Dan - either literally or implied - just seems a bit overly dramatic and is probably somewhere in between. 

 

I know fans do not want to hear this but the team being basically .500 the last 3 seasons likely gives Jay a little more stability than people think and Bruce too. But that does not mean there is no pressure to win. 

 

Here is a follow-up question - If it's "Win now", what constitutes "winning" for the season? Another .500 season? 10-6 with or without a PO? Screw the record just make the playoffs? Making the POs are not good enough they need to win at least one game? Is it NFC Championship or bust? SB or bust? What is success this season? What do we think this means to Dan since he is the one who gets to make the call?

 

The local beat guys have hit the Win Now drum but are they saying what Win Now means? 

[JSSkinz]

It may be a "win now" season for Jay and even Bruce to save their jobs but you have to read in between the lines on this.  The FO and ownership are not going to say anything negative when just about everything that surrounds the team is already negative.

 

Regardless of Bruce or Dan's antics and mishaps they aren't stupid and they know at best this is maybe a fringe wildcard team which Bruce eluded to on camera during the offseason and he didn't do it with the utmost confidence.

[goskins10]

12 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

It may be a "win now" season for Jay and even Bruce to save their jobs but you have to read in between the lines on this.  The FO and ownership are not going to say anything negative when just about everything that surrounds the team is already negative.

 

Regardless of Bruce or Dan's antics and mishaps they aren't stupid and they know at best this is maybe a fringe wildcard team which Bruce eluded to on camera during the offseason and he didn't do it with the utmost confidence.

 

That's the thing, I am reading between the lines and I am not reading desperation. That's kind of the whole point of my comment. Should there be? Probably. Just seems lioek they are not making desperation moves. 

 

In the end I just hope they win. But I think people are kind of reading more into it than there is. They don;t want Jay or Bruce here anymore so they desperation where there may not be any. Don't get me wrong, if there is a way for Bruce to be gone, I would live through whatever that is. I do think Jay is vastly under-rated in here and by fans in general. But even then, if losing Jay meant we could also get rid of Bruce, I am all in. 

 

Anyway, I guess time will tell.  

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Thanks for he response. I ask because there are at least a few moves that would suggest a longer term thinking - which if guys were worried about their jobs - and this is the crux right - they would make desperation moves. And maybe that's where I am having trouble. To me when I see people say "Win now mode" I see, they are scared for their jobs and are desperate. So they will do all they can to win this season and worry about the rest later if they are still here. 

 

The following to me are not the actions of a FO that is desperate: 

Not trading up for Haskins is a sign of incredible restraint for a team that is "win now" mode and had to have a QB. 

Drafting Bryce Love is a virtual lock to not have any impact on this season. 

The lack of urgency for the Oline - it is possible they have convinced themselves they did have a sense of urgency but we fans think otherwise. 

Not being aggressive in trying to do something with Alex's contract that opens CAP space now but makes life hell later. Then use that CAP space to get as few high vpriced 1 or 2 season piese - like a S or a WR or an ILB. 

 

I am not saying the reports are all wrong. I think they may be a bit exaggerated to get people interested. Is the FO not concerned at all? I don;t see that either. I guess for me this idea that the FO and Jay are in some kind of desperation mode due to an edict from Dan - either literally or implied - just seems a bit overly dramatic and is probably somewhere in between. 

 

 

The beat guys for the most part aren't saying this is their speculation.  They are mostly saying this is what they are actually hearing from the people who they talk to within the FO.   As for what win now means -- it seems to be playoffs unless there is a late season surge with Haskins which Jay might be able to sell.  Seems to be more smoke that Jay is in danger as opposed to Bruce.  I actually share your take on Jay so this isn't me talking up what I want to happen but talking up what's being said. 

 

I'll run with Russell's and Sheehan's combined narrative to mostly answer your specifics.  I am not saying they are right but just saying among the narratives there are some that address your point.  That narrative being that Dan is in a panic about the brand being in danger.  But he was sold behind the scenes from Bruce and others that they are on track and would have won the division if it weren't not for the injuries.  So he just needs to hang and trust the process.   If the FO-Bruce did anything wildly different this off season it would refute the idea that they were fine in the first place in 2018.   So they are going to roll like they typically roll.

 

Bruce has flat out said this off season "they are close".  Doc asked him on his radio show what he means by that and he said get to the playoffs.   He's openly spoken about injuries derailing the season.  Jay like I said has referred to win now in multiple ways.  So to me there is enough out there for me to think the beat reporters sources to the FO might be on to something at this moment in time.   So with all that noise its hard for me to see for example Dan being sold this is a rebuild year.   But like I said in my previous post, something can be true today that's not true tomorrow.  Mood changes.  Motivations change.  Context changes. 

 

As for Haskins being an anomaly in the win now quest.  Maybe.  But that's arguable considering the QBs in house aren't the types that are earth shattering.  The more important point though might be selling tickets.  Keenum isn't bringing people to the seats.  And some of the beat guys have said Dan's win now vibe is a lot about declining sales and TV ratings.  So drafting Haskins flows very well as part of the narrative.  In other words, the vibe i get listening to this narrative isn't that its about lets say an 8-8 season in a vacuum but its about 8-8 season coupled with declining ticket sales and TV ratings.  So yeah if its an 8-8 team but with a great buzz about it where the stadium is packed and TV ratings are good - I'd presume Dan would be satisfied.  I doubt though an 8-8 season plays out that way unless Haskins ends up as a promising part of the narrative. 

 

This part isn't directed at you at all.  But just explaining why I go through the trouble of explaining media accuracy.   It's funny for me to say this because in my job I typically hate the press and if anything I fear them.  😀  But at the same time, I've noticed some (not all) of the FO defenders (you clearly are not a FO defender to say the least so you aren't in this group) uses the media's inability to get all their stories right as proof that maybe we should question the predominant vibe we get on the aggregate about Dan and Bruce.   So I end up defending the local media for that reason because yeah if you read lets say 50 stories about Bruce and Dan over the years and hear various narratives they are going to get some of it wrong -- its impossible not get stuff wrong about any story over time -- but it doesn't make it all wrong or even make most of it wrong.  The picture that's painted about a public figure (especially their personalities) if it goes long and deep is typically mostly on the money.  But if the media is held to standards that they have to be 100% right otherwise all should be questioned -- then people shouldn't bother reading any newspaper or listening to any narrative.  😀

 

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

That's the thing, I am reading between the lines and I am not reading desperation. That's kind of the whole point of my comment. Should there be? Probably. Just seems lioek they are not making desperation moves. 

 

In the end I just hope they win. But I think people are kind of reading more into it than there is. They don;t want Jay or Bruce here anymore so they desperation where there may not be any. Don't get me wrong, if there is a way for Bruce to be gone, I would live through whatever that is. I do think Jay is vastly under-rated in here and by fans in general. But even then, if losing Jay meant we could also get rid of Bruce, I am all in. 

 

Anyway, I guess time will tell.  

 

If I had to add my own cynicism and speculation to the narrative it would be something like this.   😀

 

I'll start with I don't think it's an accident that we heard those stories of Dan trying to recruit Gregg Williams and Todd Bowles after the season.   We heard one narrative that Dan had a marathon meeting with a bunch of people after the season finale sans Jay.  Chris Russell to me has been the most on the money about the FO in recent years and he more or less said Dan is in a panic primarily about season ticket sales and a fan base losing interest. 

 

Others have said that Bruce though reassured Dan that the FO has been rocking with the right plan but has been derailed by bad luck.  Just stick with the program.  I don't know if Bruce was ever in danger but for him to sell his job he can't really say anything else could he?  Could he say he's in year 10 now but they are still in rebuilding mode so Dan bear with him for another year or two, etc?  He's really forced into selling a narrative that he and that FO rocks and they have a playoff roster but those pesky injuries have foiled it.  And as for fan interest -- maybe he goes Lafemina was part of the problem and Dan will see the fans will come to see this playoff roster next season.

 

Bruce regardless of what he really thinks probably has to sell a narrative like that.  And as much as I don't care for Bruce -- I don't blame him to sell something like that.  In any job, if you are looking to protect it, you sell that you are doing a good job.  I can't see how he can sell he's doing it all right in his 10th year and at the same time sell Dan that they need another season or two for rebuilding. 

 

I get the impression that Bruce's job security has nothing to do with their 8-8 runs but that Dan has relies on him to do it all.  He represents him in owner meetings.  He runs the football and business operation.  He's leading the charge for the stadium.  As guys like Brewer said if Dan dumps Bruce who would he replace him with that he trusts? 

 

 

[goskins10]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The beat guys for the most part aren't saying this is their speculation.  They are mostly saying this is what they are actually hearing from the people who they talk to within the FO.   As for what win now means -- it seems to be playoffs unless there is a late season surge with Haskins which Jay might be able to sell.  Seems to be more smoke that Jay is in danger as opposed to Bruce.  I actually share your take on Jay so this isn't me talking up what I want to happen but talking up what's being said. 

edit

 

As for Haskins being an anomaly in the win now quest.  Maybe.  But that's arguable considering the QBs in house aren't the types that are earth shattering.  The more important point though might be selling tickets.  Keenum isn't bringing people to the seats.  And some of the beat guys have said Dan's win now vibe is a lot about declining sales and TV ratings.  So drafting Haskins flows very well as part of the narrative.  In other words, the vibe i get listening to this narrative isn't that its about lets say an 8-8 season in a vacuum but its about 8-8 season coupled with declining ticket sales and TV ratings.  So yeah if its an 8-8 team but with a great buzz about it where the stadium is packed and TV ratings are good - I'd presume Dan would be satisfied.  I doubt though an 8-8 season plays out that way unless Haskins ends up as a promising part of the narrative. 

 

edit

 

 

 

Fair enough. Still for me it feels like it may not be as desperate. But good point on if they sold him everything is OK, jsut stay the course then they would be contradicting themselve if they did not something irrational or that looked like desperation. . 

 

i do want to clarify one thing. I do not see Haskins as anamoly to win now. But i do see them not trading up and being very aggressive. if they were really worried about this year, they would sold the house to get the QB they wanted. But I could also see them taking Haskins at all as seeming a bit desperate. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

Fair enough. Still for me it feels like it may not be as desperate. But good point on if they sold him everything is OK, jsut stay the course then they would be contradicting themselve if they did not something irrational or that looked like desperation. . 

 

i do want to clarify one thing. I do not see Haskins as anamoly to win now. But i do see them not trading up and being very aggressive. if they were really worried about this year, they would sold the house to get the QB they wanted. But I could also see them taking Haskins at all as seeming a bit desperate. 

 

 

My point is I think its likely Bruce talked him off the ledge so Dan doesn't feel desperate anymore.   He's likely still anxious about ticket sales.  But otherwise he might be convinced this is a playoff team and all will be right once the season starts.    Like most people, Dan might have mixed emotions where everything isn't binary.  But Dan is likely being sold by everyone around him that this team is on the cusp of great things or at least the playoffs as opposed to it being a rebuilding year. 

 

My theory which granted I am extrapolating from what I've heard is this:

 

Dan is likely going into the season feeling as good about it as anyone albeit with some apprehension.  It's not Dan thinking doom.  I think it's Dan being optimistic.  And he was sold into the optimism.  I think he gets shocked that the season doesn't unfold the way Bruce explained to him it likely will.  And I've made this same point before.  

 

I think you can argue Haskins either way.  Some beat guys said part of Jay's hesitation about Haskins was he was desperate about a pass rusher for this season not so much a QB and he wanted to fill multiple needs.  If they traded up it would have made the win now drill tougher to accomplish because they'd have less picks.  Also I'd add it would also be a different way for them to do business than in recent years so if they are selling Dan to stay the course then act like that's indeed what they are doing.   You can argue by giving up a high 2020 pick (that's unlike how they've done business recently) and got the QB -- they served all masters.  

 

It wouldn't surprise me if deep down Bruce didn't think this is a playoff roster.  Jay ditto.  But I'd be surprised if Bruce didn't sell Dan that is indeed a playoff a roster.  I think that will end up being the underpinning of some possible tension during the season if things go poorly. 

 

Bringing this back to the O line, I think if the season goes south that position spot might likely be what derails it.  And if so can Bruce sell to Dan they have a playoff roster but just have been snakebitten three seasons in a row? 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

https://247sports.com/nfl/washington-redskins/Article/Redskins-Practice-Notes-Jacobs-Back-in-Action-104237945/

ESPN names the veteran who could be cut by the Redskins

By JORDAN DAJANI7 hrs

• 
   

In the coming months, some NFL teams will make surprise cuts, which will leave a few veterans scrambling to find work before the beginning of the 2019 season.

It happens seemingly every year, and they are almost impossible to predict. That being said, ESPN's NFL reporters decided to try their hand at predicting the veterans who could be cut by each NFL team, and for the Washington Redskins, John Keim selected a guy who quite literally just arrived at Redskins' Park: offensive lineman Ereck Flowers....

"In truth, he'll be hard to cut because the Redskins have little depth at tackle; he also has $1.5 million in guaranteed money. Plus, there are questions about Trent Williams: Will he demand a trade or release regardless of whether he receives a new deal? Williams' health is always a concern, and he is coming off a surgical procedure to remove a growth from his head. Flowers has not played well in the past, and he did not look great in the spring. 

[Wildbunny]

7 hours ago, carex said:

 

until it happens you don't know.  That's not BPA OR picking for need, that's picking for POTENTIAL need and no one drafts that way.  If you are that insecure about your players, you get them off the roster

On a side note, I feel more secure with Scherff than with both Williams and Moses. Scherff was a fluke injury. I'm not expecting him to end on IR once again.

Williams and Moses, not so much, even if Moses tends to plays through injury.

 

Anyway, I feel sorry for whoever who will be our QB, because it's gonna be a long season for them... Mark Sanchez should probably not move to far away from DC, he'll get a call soon...

[Vanguard]

21 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

 

Anyway, I feel sorry for whoever who will be our QB, because it's gonna be a long season for them... Mark Sanchez should probably not move to far away from DC, he'll get a call soon...

 

After what I saw from Mark.  It blows my mind that our head coach thought he was our best option.

[DWinzit]

On 6/17/2019 at 5:00 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

https://247sports.com/nfl/washington-redskins/Article/Redskins-Practice-Notes-Jacobs-Back-in-Action-104237945/

ESPN names the veteran who could be cut by the Redskins

By JORDAN DAJANI7 hrs

• 
   

In the coming months, some NFL teams will make surprise cuts, which will leave a few veterans scrambling to find work before the beginning of the 2019 season.

It happens seemingly every year, and they are almost impossible to predict. That being said, ESPN's NFL reporters decided to try their hand at predicting the veterans who could be cut by each NFL team, and for the Washington Redskins, John Keim selected a guy who quite literally just arrived at Redskins' Park: offensive lineman Ereck Flowers....

"In truth, he'll be hard to cut because the Redskins have little depth at tackle; he also has $1.5 million in guaranteed money. Plus, there are questions about Trent Williams: Will he demand a trade or release regardless of whether he receives a new deal? Williams' health is always a concern, and he is coming off a surgical procedure to remove a growth from his head. Flowers has not played well in the past, and he did not look great in the spring. 

Funny there's talk of Flowers taking Trents place. Wasn't Trent being here part of the reason Flowers wanted to come to Washington?

While it seemed like a big gamble bringing him in, I have always had a hard time seeing him making it. I sure hope he does but I just here his name and envision a turnstile.

I still wish they had selected an OL before the end of the 4th round.  While I never had heard of him prior to the draft, I find myself very upbeat about Martin and hope is one of the steals of the draft and takes over at LG

[bakedtater1]

Really hope things work out for Trent to stay here..I know he's getting a little long in the tooth but hoping for maybe 3 more years of his service..^^^but reading the above leaves me thinking we could be ****ed..

[bowhunter]

https://nypost.com/2018/05/04/landon-collins-knows-why-ereck-flowers-is-mad-but-has-no-pity/

This article is from 2018. I think it gives a fairly good insight of what Flowers brings. Mixed bag. Willing to work hard but also subject to phoning it in. I don't know how much of this is mental makeup, self discipline, coaching,  or simply the result of being in a toxic NYG O-line environment. I do think TW could be an inspirational teammate for him and that Callahan might be the right motivator. But overall, I'm not optimistic that Flowers is a true champion. We'll see. 

   One a positive that I drew from that article is that Landon Collins really seems to be a great teammate.

 

[evmiii]

On 6/17/2019 at 4:00 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

https://247sports.com/nfl/washington-redskins/Article/Redskins-Practice-Notes-Jacobs-Back-in-Action-104237945/

ESPN names the veteran who could be cut by the Redskins

By JORDAN DAJANI7 hrs

• 
   

In the coming months, some NFL teams will make surprise cuts, which will leave a few veterans scrambling to find work before the beginning of the 2019 season.

It happens seemingly every year, and they are almost impossible to predict. That being said, ESPN's NFL reporters decided to try their hand at predicting the veterans who could be cut by each NFL team, and for the Washington Redskins, John Keim selected a guy who quite literally just arrived at Redskins' Park: offensive lineman Ereck Flowers....

"In truth, he'll be hard to cut because the Redskins have little depth at tackle; he also has $1.5 million in guaranteed money. Plus, there are questions about Trent Williams: Will he demand a trade or release regardless of whether he receives a new deal? Williams' health is always a concern, and he is coming off a surgical procedure to remove a growth from his head. Flowers has not played well in the past, and he did not look great in the spring. 

 

 

Callahan says he is on the path to be our starting guard, he surely knows more about OL than any of us.  If it works out, we have several young dudes as backups.  They will have the Trent issue resolved before the season starts.  I think the Oline will be solid on opening day; staying that way is a completely different story.

[goskins10]

 

Here is confirmation they want Flowers at LG - Callahan seems to think he can make it work. 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001034152/article/redskins-planning-to-start-ereck-flowers-at-left-guard

 

[redskinss]

22 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

To me the ticket sales and fannies in the seats

Could you elaborate?

 

I cant imagine you think that starting flowers is going to sell tickets. 

[bakedtater1]

So flowers bombed at left tackle for the Giants and he went to the jags didn't he play Right guard there?.. and so if he's starting on a new spot at left guard maybe third time's a charm?

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, redskinss said:

Could you elaborate?

 

I cant imagine you think that starting flowers is going to sell tickets. 

 

Lol.  That was left over from another comment I deleted.  I will delete. No relevance here at all.