The current status of the Redskins o-line.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 

And he said he heard some folks say good things about Geron. It may have just been Theismann 

Based on what I've seen, it had to have been Theismann.  I don't want watch Case Keenum play football anymore than the next man, but I'd rather watch him get ragdolled than Haskins.

[Malapropismic Depository]

Flowers has been uprooted from LT and re-planted at LG.

Is it possible that Flowers has found a new home where he can blossom at LG ?

 

 

[volsmet]

It appears Flowers will be the best lg we have had in quite some time. Callahan deserves to have a Taco Bell in his office.

 

[RandyHolt]

Nice.... hold!?

 

We were all too fixated at seeing our best run in 9 months.

 

Yes I want a guy that is good at cheating.

 

I heard that Martin is so stocky and strong, that a coach or DL called him square.

 

Back in the day being square was a goody 2 shoes. Now someone square will ram your head through the european version of drywall.

 

[Malapropismic Depository]

31 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Nice.... hold!?

We were all too fixated at seeing our best run in 9 months.

Yes I want a guy that is good at cheating.

I heard that Martin is so stocky and strong, that a coach or DL called him square.

Back in the day being square was a goody 2 shoes. Now someone square will ram your head through the european version of drywall.

 

 

So if Flowers becomes solidified as Guard, Martin the becomes potentially an excellent backup to have at Guard, on a cheap rookie contract for several years.

I also wonder if Scherff doesn't resign, if it's possible Martin can move to his spot next year.

[PartyPosse]

I think Flowers doesn't have the mental skills to make quick decisions on the edge but inside where his job is more or less straight up interior protection i think he could become a real bonafide star. 

[Malapropismic Depository]

10 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

 i think he could become a real bonafide star. 

 

What a testament to Callahan that would be.

If I'm Snyder, I'd make him the highest paid Assistant Coach ever.

And make Tomsula the 2nd highest.

Lock them up in Washington for life.

And eager to see what difference that Horton makes, too.

[PartyPosse]

4 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

What a testament to Callahan that would be.

If I'm Snyder, I'd make him the highest paid Assistant Coach ever.

And make Tomsula the 2nd highest.

Lock them up in Washington for life.

And eager to see what difference that Horton makes, too.

Well, yes and no. The dude always had talent but he always had footwork problem and kept his head too low. Most of his draft reports stated he was probably better suited for guard so I just think he found a position more complimentary to his strengths. 

[bakedtater1]

That would be awesome if flowers handles that lg spot all season..

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

20 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I think Flowers doesn't have the mental skills to make quick decisions on the edge but inside where his job is more or less straight up interior protection i think he could become a real bonafide star. 

 

Come on man.

 

The most cerebral position on the o-line is in the interior.  It's the Center spot.  Inside play is all about quick decisions.  Guard included.  Flowers has his initial assignment based on playcall and defensive look pre-snap.  Then post-snap that changes more so inside than anywhere else.  Where's the IDL lined up, if it's 3 tech off your shoulder, that's more straight forward for the average protection call.  But if it's a 0, 1, or 2 tech then you've got more responsibilities.  You've now got your initial assignment on the IDL (might be solely responsible, might be a combo block, might ignore completely).  In some calls, you have to keep your head up while blocking, and be aware of what the ILB is doing, is he coming?  Yes/No.  Is there a stunt?  Yes/No.  Was there a call of two rushers on the Edge (blitzing Nickel, safety, whoever), and has that guy rushed?  Yes/No.  Has the IDL done anything that would muck up the protection call and it's now my responsibility to bail and try and pick up the free rusher?  Yes/No.  Can I even get my head around to see if there's a free rusher with this IDL hitting my opposite shoulder?  Yes/No.  Can I afford to bail now on the off chance that extra rusher on the Edge is actually coming?  Yes/No.

 

OT's are more valuable because they control the Edge, and they're going to be isolated with less help more often.  So they need to be more talented.  But the interior is all about quick decisions.

 

One thing that Flowers showed in Week 2, was a quality quick decision.  You've probably heard the phrase "Guard's have to look for work."  Well, here's a post in the Haskins thread that shows Flowers making a quick decision.

 

For reference that's the 1st play in this youtube video here:

 

I can't quite tell where the NT for the Bengals is lined up, let's say it's the 1 tech towards Flowers side.  Based on what happens immediately post-snap, here's my guess for Flowers thought process is for what the blocking assignments seem to be:

 

Pre-Snap

- Center has to pick up the NT, but I need to stay close.

- ILB threatens blitz, is he coming?  No he's backing off too far.

Ball is snapped

- Look left towards Edge opposite LT is he moving inside and I'll have to pick him up?  No, his path isn't towards me.

- Keep arm extended on NT engaged with Center, make sure Center isn't about to fail his block, do that while still keeping track of the Edge engaged with the LT.

- Realize the LT is losing the block with the Edge.  Make a decision to leave the Center 1-on-1 with the NT, peel off, and whack the Edge hard.

 

On that play, every other OL has a straight up blocking assignment pre-snap, Flowers is the lone guy on the line responsible for making quick decisions.  Now post-snap, that could stay the same (it did), or the 4 rushers could stunt, a delayed blitz could come, etc etc and others have to make decisions as well.

 

[desertbeagle85]

Is it me or did Morgan get blown up a few times tonight. Also this just in Skins cut Flowers, because he's a bum. At least I expect them to cut him. 

[carex]

1 hour ago, desertbeagle85 said:

Is it me or did Morgan get blown up a few times tonight. Also this just in Skins cut Flowers, because he's a bum. At least I expect them to cut him. 

 

the left side looked pretty good early on actually

[volsmet]

 

 

To his credit, Flowers did get in the way of the gentleman who torched our center. Must be a zone scheme.

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

[bakedtater1]

Well we got a couple weeks to get this thing worked out..not sure if Callahan needs to move bodies around or what but..umm face palm

[justice98]

Flowers just can't be allowed to play in a regular season game.  This is dead end. 

 

It's gonna have to be Martin and the next best guy that gets cut between now and the season.  

 

In a perfect world, if you truly thought he had enough there to work with, he would be a practice squad guy that you could work on for a year.  But since he's not eligible, to have him on the active roster is a no-go.  The juice isnt worth the squeeze.

[MartinC]

To be fair Flowers had looked halfway decent up until last night in preseason. Not making anyone forget Russ Grimm decent but at least serviceable. Last night was a step back for him - and he got himself deep in Gruden's doghouse with that hold at the 1 yard line that took a TD off the scoreboard. Just CAN NOT do that.

 

I still think he will start the season at LG but he will be on a very short chain.

 

Penn also looked meh as well. He was on roller skates in pass pro far too often. He looked decent run blocking though - and I think we will see a lot of running from the Redskins this season.

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

The dilema with Flowers is that Martin does not seem to be quite ready to start. I think they figure EF is their best option right now, which is scary. Martin whiffed on pass pro that got Haskins hit, and caused him to overthrow Sims on the crossing rout. 

 

The run game did appear to be way better last night then we’ve seen in a min, so there is that.

[MartinC]

7 minutes ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

The run game did appear to be way better last night then we’ve seen in a min, so there is that.

 

Guice was really really good. Going to be fun to watch that man play.

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

Geron looked solid on both sides yesterday btw. We gotta remember he’s working his way back from injury, but I think he’s better than many on here give him credit for. 

[Going Commando]

Flowers has balance issues.  He's got slow feet and he's a bit of a leaner and he just doesn't want to get his feet moved and reset and his weight back under him when it's time to adjust.  That's why he's always grabbing and holding and battling for his life on the rep.

 

He's a truck when he can run and he's got tremendous size and arm length when he actually hits the fit and gets himself set for the block.  But I just don't think he has the speed and coordination to be consistently good.  Martin is a lot quicker and steadier and he's got far better contact balance.  Sacrifice size for speed.

1 hour ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

The dilema with Flowers is that Martin does not seem to be quite ready to start. I think they figure EF is their best option right now, which is scary. Martin whiffed on pass pro that got Haskins hit, and caused him to overthrow Sims on the crossing rout. 

 

That was his one bad rep in pass pro, and it was a failed blitz pick up.  It might not have all been on him.  The rest of his reps he was an anchor who gave up nothing.

[MartinC]

1 minute ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Flowers has balance issues.  He's got slow feet and he's a bit of a leaner and he just doesn't want to get his feet moved and reset and his weight back under him when it's time to adjust.  That's why he's always grabbing and holding and battling for his life on the rep.

 

He's a truck when he can run and he's got tremendous size and arm length when he actually hits the fit and gets himself set for the block.  But I just don't think he has the speed and coordination to be consistently good.  Martin is a lot quicker and steadier and he's got far better contact balance.  Sacrifice size for speed.

 

No question Martin will take that spot at LG at some point. I think they will start with Flowers though while they give Martin more time to get up to speed. If he gets another holding call on the 1 yard line however ...

 

[Chachie]

Flowers gets the holding call after letting the defender get by him and tackling the rusher. Next thing we see is Erek arguing with Gruden on the sideline. Really looking fwd to the season with this guy. 😐

[Going Commando]

10 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

No question Martin will take that spot at LG at some point. I think they will start with Flowers though while they give Martin more time to get up to speed. If he gets another holding call on the 1 yard line however ...

 

 

I kind of wish Martin had been playing with the first string since day one and getting a ton of reps with Rouiller and Christian to give the line a better chance.  They need all of the help they can get.  But I suppose the Flowers experiment needed to be played out.  Maybe it still does.  But I don't think it's going to work.  I just have this feeling about him.  He's slow footed and perhaps even a little lazy and he's not the kind of aggressive, dialed in competitor that I want.  I just feel like he's lackadaisical in style and you aren't really going to get through to him.

 

Martin is a worker.  He works like a machine, and you're getting the concentration and effort you want from him each snap.  There will be misreads and blown assignments, but that's why I was hoping he'd get a more prominent and consistent role earlier in the process.

 

As far as depth goes, #66 looks serviceable to me, but I like Pierschbacher more.  I would use Pierschbacher as a swing guard/center back up maybe even ahead of Flowers on the depth chart.  I know that having two rookies activated on your game day roster is a potential failure, but the line is just so bad without Trent that I think they're the best options we have.

 

The free agent market for offensive linemen is usually awful too (hence why we took the chance on Flowers).  We're really going to have to figure some stuff out next spring.  This is the current list at guard: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2020/all/guard/

 

Deceptively good because probably most of the ones you want that will be healthy are going to sign extensions with their teams.  Probably only going to end up being like three or four guys total that you could sign and trust to come in and start for you.  The tackle market is always thin too, hence the Donald Penns and Andrew Whitworths and Jason Peters of the league holding down starting jobs still.

 

Not to mention we still have to figure all of this out while spending over 10% of our cap on Alex Smith.

 

So Pierschbacher and Martin need to work out and we need immediate hits on our free agency signings and draft picks for this line to be any good next year.

[MartinC]

51 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

So Pierschbacher and Martin need to work out and we need immediate hits on our free agency signings and draft picks for this line to be any good next year.

 

I think Martin, Pierschbacher and Christian will be the depth on O'Line. I think Bergstrom will stick as well to give some veteran depth. That's the 9 with the 5 current starters. Given our history (and Penns age) its likely everyone of those 9 will take snaps at some point (and Martin will likely take Flowers job at some point as well). Plus I would be looking at late camp cuts but I agree with you pickings are normally slim.

 

I think we have to draft a tackle high next year - two probable top 10 tackles coming out. And I think it's likely we will be picking in that 8-14 range. Then I would keep adding one or two picks a year in the lower rounds. With the state of O'Line play in the NFL these days anyone even half-way decent does not hit free agency unless there is a buyer beware stamp on them for some reason.