2019 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[JSSkinz]

12 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

Exactly this. There is data. Don't believe everything you think. Just because the Redskins built a team on the backs of OL 30 years ago, doesn't mean we should eschew better players to draft OL. 

 

Except he is slow for a small CB and he didn't run the cone drills, why wouldn't he do those drills, Tyrann did.

 

Is it wrong to think its because once people found out he doesn't have the ability to quickly switch directions that it would hurt his status coupled with him being small and slow for a 5-10 CB?

 

This is a question, not an attack on your assessment.

[The Consigliere]

15 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

 

 

15 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

Outside of veryoldschool it seems like erry budy would be livid if we went o line at 15..I'm not a draft guru and from what I've seen it's edge d line linebackers and qbs that seem to be the most popular but if there's an o linemen there that has jumped up the charts I wouldn't be upset if the skins went that route...than again any bright new shiny toy is a joy to Dawn the burgundy and gold!

If 1 or 2 OL Prospects are there that I really like at 15, that fall there, I'd definitely take one. I don't disagree w/certain aspects of old school's points, and keeping your OL at top level shape and being ahead of the game w/it is always advisable. Additional Silverback is getting old, and as such is getting injuries more frequently and drafting his successor so our future young QB prospect has protection on his blindside makes sense.

 

There's lot of directions to go at 15, and to me, the ones that make the most sense are best DL/Edge available, OL, WR, QB, or trade down/out (I would 1000% be behind trading down and adding a '20 1st in exchange for the movement and a 2nd if that's possible, the '20 draft should be loaded, and it gives us ammo for a QB trade up). The problem is the F.O. and coaching staff won't make forward looking decisions like that which is why they should've been fired. You never allow a F.O. on the edge of the plank to make decisions that hinder your potential long term future for short term gains and we're doing just that. Anyway regardless, my interests lay in best DL/Edge/OL/QB or a trade down for any of those plus WR/CB (seems like WR/CB will not start falling off the board until near the 20 slot). Trading out or down makes the most sense unless a top 10 guy falls to us, and again, if it's OL, that's fine w/me. If you want to successfully develop a young QB, you HAVE to give them a solid to elite OL or you may end up ruining them. I think our OL when healthy is good to very good, but our best OL is getting less healthy and older, so drafting his eventual replacement, and potential cover for injuries at RT/LT makes sense. I wouldn't mind trading down for a Guard either, or taking one at slot if we think he won't be there at 20-35. 

14 hours ago, sportjunkie07 said:

I agree with you on the state of the oline and likely it is the biggest reason for our demise over the last two seasons. 

 

I disagree on taking not taking a more bpa approach though.. 

 

I believe weve got a more than a few things to iron out as a franchise in order to achieve long term success. Improving other units with a potentially elite player (let's say edge rusher or tight end) over an above average offensive lineman is the right move in the long term and could pay dividends faster than one thinks. 

 

Yes, although we have the wrong F.O./Coaching Staff to do it, playing this draft for 2-3 years down the road is the best view point. We aren't competing for squat next year and decisions about W/L's should not trump long term team building efficacy. We need a lot: WR, TE, OG, OT Replacement, QB, Edge, CB. Plenty of needs. We should take the picks based on the best available player that makes the most cap value return sense at slot (typically QB, OT, OG, CB, WR, Edge, DT) and then fill in around the edges as we go. The higher hit rate w/OL's and the cap benefits of hitting suggest going after the position when value is there, not waiting till later because only 55% of them bust say compared to 65% of them busting w/other positions in say round 4. Smart, Good Process is what we need. So please for the love of god, fire the GM.

[Anselmheifer]

13 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

Except he is slow for a small CB and he didn't run the cone drills, why wouldn't he do those drills, Tyrann did.

 

Is it wrong to think its because once people found out he doesn't have the ability to quickly switch directions that it would hurt his status coupled with him being small and slow for a 5-10 CB?

 

This is a question, not an attack on your assessment.

You are right to question why he sat out the drills. That always gives me pause. I don't think he has difficulty changing directions. Go back and look at all of the combine coverage. Murphy looked better than all of the other corners in the field drills. His back pedal and hips looked great. I did a quick search and the first link I clicked was below. You have to have a plan for Murphy though. You are right. He probably should be in a zone scheme. I wouldn't line him up in press man on a WR that runs a 4.3. 

Also, you are right that Tyrann is probably a bad comp, in that they really are playing different positions. I should clarify and state that I think Tyrann is his comp only in terms of ball skills, instincts, and ability to influence the game with those things and some physicality. Another link I am posting below compares him to Asante Samuel. That might be a good comparison, except for the fact that Byron Murphy is very physical and will stick you. God, I hope he doesn't go to the Eagles or New England. He would be the quintessential NE pick. 

 

"Washington's Byron Murphy also didn't blaze on the 40 with a 4.55-second time, but he showed in the drills why many people think he's the top guy in the class. He showed great footwork ability to transition on the pedal-and-react and the W drills, but also flashed strong hands every time the ball was in the air. As long as you don't expect him to stay with burners deep, he has everything you want at the position. "

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2019-nfl-combine-results-greedy-williams-shuts-it-down-after-fast-40-byron-murphy-and-juan-thornhill-excel/

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-path-to-the-draft/0ap3000001024973/Pro-comps-for-Washington-CB-Byron-Murphy

 

[nonniey]

15 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

Outside of veryoldschool it seems like erry budy would be livid if we went o line at 15..I'm not a draft guru and from what I've seen it's edge d line linebackers and qbs that seem to be the most popular but if there's an o linemen there that has jumped up the charts I wouldn't be upset if the skins went that route...than again any bright new shiny toy is a joy to Dawn the burgundy and gold!

Think you missed on that.  OL would be my preference if we stay at pick 15 if the value is there and there are 2-3 players on the OL that would be great to pick up at 15. Difference with old school is he wants an OL with the 1st 2 picks no matter what there value. I get the impression if we Drafted OL players X and Y in the 3rd round after drafting other positions in the 1st 2 round he'd be furious but if we draft the the same exact same OL players X and Y with our 1st and 2d he'd be ecstatic.

[The Consigliere]

8 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

Interior line play needs to be the top priority for Washington. Teams who can’t protect up the middle don’t win football games. Luck became a new man after Indi finally prioritized the middle of the line ... and then they got crushed when their youngsters couldn’t handle Chris Jones. QB’s become a lot better when they have clean underwear.

 

 

 

I have no problem w/going after the #1 Guard prospect at 15 or trading down and taking one. I agree w/you, a ton of scheme design over the past decade really since that 2007 Super Bowl shocker has been to bring interior pressure at pocket passers, not just pressure from the edge. Guards are a lot more important than they used to be which is why they get a lot more money in FA than they used to. 

12 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

Which member here posted so much on WR breakout age? I've been super busy, but I found that extremely interesting and...it makes total sense. Essentially, WR's are basketball athletes. In the NBA draft, there is almost no player that isn't good as a freshman or sophomore that goes on to be something. Players that really have it, show that they are players as freshman. WR's are similar run/jump athletes, but also have to have the ball skills and feel for the game. 

Looking at the draft using that paradigm, I'm much less inclined to like Hakeem Butler and much more fond of N'Keal Harry. That being said, I want Marquise Brown on the team. I wish there a way to add Brown and a defender. 

 

I think people are looking at Murphy the wrong way. He's not an elite boundary CB. I think he's a Tyrann Mathieu type player. A physical ball hawk that will be versatile and make a real impact. Murphy has slightly better size than Mathieu. Similar workout numbers. Byron Murphy had more turnovers and passes defensed in college. He is super physical. Versatile. He didn't have nearly the number of collegiate tackles as Mathieu, but I think is the superior player in coverage. Murphy will be able to line up and cover in the slot, and should also be able to cover outside. He has legit value at 15 and will be a steal for someone in the 20's. I agree with Mcqueen's evaluation of Murphy. Also, where is Mcqueen recently? In any case watch the physicality and ball skills and feel for the game in the video below. 

 

That would be me borrowing ideas from others like Matt Kelley and rotoviz. They've done the hard labor (re: math), and it's been underlined 10x over. Breakout age, and production markers when young are more predictive than anything other than draft slotting when it comes to future success in the NFL. If you scroll down through the leagues top 30-40 WR's you will find about 85-90% of them showed it very early in college. It's why Butler scares the hell out of me. Have no doubt he could be a star, but that would be breaking against the odds and history, he would be a major outlier if he's successful.

[The Consigliere]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah Foster is a beast but he does get banged up a lot and hopefully can stay out of trouble off the field.  Also if you team up Bush and Foster at MLB that's a ton of speed.  Sean Dion Hamilton is a bit undersized weight-physique wise at Mike MLB and I know Keim has said before they have concerns about that.  Mason Foster is slow.  So wonder if they are tempted to add Bush who can play Mike and is apparently a really smart dude who can call plays, leader too.  Reuben judging by his off field activities and very low Wonderlic score doesn't seem to be a rocket scientist albeit a missile as a Mo (weakside) MLB.   My point is Reuben might flourish even more with a dude like Bush playing right next to him. 

 

I'm really confused as hell about Foster's off the field record. It looks as if all the pro incidents w/women have been reneged upon and it was really bad press more than anything that got him in trouble, but that also reminds of two factors.

 

#1 The league clearly doesn't give a crap about domestic violence/violence against women unless it's caught on video hence McCoy getting away with murder, no suspension so far for Tyreek Hill (and the Chiefs pretending they care about domestic violence when they kept Hill on the roster (no tape, plays a more valuable position) and ejected Hunt (there was video, and he plays a less valuable position) Rice and Hunt there was video and their careers possibly wrecked (Rice yes, Hunt not exactly), and now Foster avoiding severe punishment.

 

#2 Did the women in these stories make this up? Or have they wised up? Did they see what happened to Rice and Hunt and realize their is no money train if they get their guy's career derailed? Or is Foster innocent of everything except for taste in honest women. I have no idea. Does anyone have clarity in the stories? 

 

It's exceedingly confusing with Foster.  

[Anselmheifer]

22 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

 

That would be me borrowing ideas from others like Matt Kelley and rotoviz. They've done the hard labor (re: math), and it's been underlined 10x over. Breakout age, and production markers when young are more predictive than anything other than draft slotting when it comes to future success in the NFL. If you scroll down through the leagues top 30-40 WR's you will find about 85-90% of them showed it very early in college. It's why Butler scares the hell out of me. Have no doubt he could be a star, but that would be breaking against the odds and history, he would be a major outlier if he's successful.

Solid work then. That's why this board is awesome. You have me convinced. I think Josh Doctson also fails the breakout age analysis. 

I'd be curious to see how it applies to other positions. For instance, I was considering Ben Banogu as a potential steal/sleeper that could blow up in the league given his physical traits. I questioned whether  Banogu might be a lower risk in the 3rd or 4th than Brian Burns in the first. Then I noticed that Burns is 20 and Banogu is 23. A 23 year old ought to be killing it against 19 and 20 year old kids. Burns stepped in as a true freshman and posted 8.5 sacks. I suspect that although breakout age is huge at WR, it should be more closely looked at for all positions. 

 

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/brian-burns-2.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/ben-banogu-1.html

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

Interior line play needs to be the top priority for Washington. Teams who can’t protect up the middle don’t win football games. Luck became a new man after Indi finally prioritized the middle of the line ... and then they got crushed when their youngsters couldn’t handle Chris Jones. QB’s become a lot better when they have clean underwear.

 

 

 

Agree.  I am sort of in between Veryoldschool's take and the BPA take.  In theory, I am a BPA guy so I agree with all the counter points to his argument.  But if i am looking at this team purely from the prism of this season -- it's tough for me to see how competitive they can be if they don't upgrade their O line.    It's not just the hole at LG but the depth on the O line is terrible IMO coupled with some injury prone players who start that likely test that depth.  Plus its compounded by having poor blocking wide receivers and mostly poor blocking tight ends.  Though Doctson improved as a blocker in the 2nd half of the season.  

 

I thought it was funny to hear Doug Williams talk in the off season saying that you don't have a smallish guy like Paul Richardson play Z in this scheme because the Z in this offense has to block.  Well, Doug, Richardson actually did play Z in the offense. 😀   So what the heck is he talking about? But it brings home the point that  with Crowder and Richardson in the scheme the blocking wasn't hot.  And as I've said on this thread many times, Jay's offense is heavily dependent on the TEs to block in the run game.  So its weird that we don't have the right horses to execute the scheme. And that's before delving into the whole telegraphing run pass based on the TE personnel on each play. 

 

So the issues with blocking runs deep.  If they took for example Hockenson in the first and Risner or Lindstrom in the 2nd (though I doubt any of those players fall that far.   Maybe Deiter?  That could fix most of this.   Maybe Jonah Williams in the first and then a guy like Knox or Irv Smith or Sternberger (I think Sternberger is a better blocker than some here give him credit for) in the 2nd or third.  

 

The problem is this team has so many needs so if you go in one direction then it hurts you in the other direction.  Looking at value it begs for them to go defense at 15 unless Hockenson falls and i am not opposed to Jonah Williams either at 15.

 

It would be interesting if Jonah Williams drops to 15 and a team like the Texans desperate for an O lineman lets say offer their first rounder (23rd pick) and 2nd to trade up.  Do we take it?  If we did it would likely take us out of the top tier range of pass rushers but it would put us in range for the first receiver off the board, or someone like Risner, Cody Ford.  

 

Right now its really tempting for me to stay put at 15 for the following players:  Sweat (doubt he's there), Burns, Hockenson, Bush.  And maybe Jonah Williams and Clelin Ferrell. 

 

 

[Anselmheifer]

19 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

rap about domestic violence/violence against women unless it's caught on video hence McCoy getting away with murder, no suspension so far for Tyreek Hill (and the Chiefs pretending they care about domestic violence when they kept Hill on the roster (no tape, plays a more valuable position) and ejected Hunt (there was video, and he plays a less valuable position) Rice and Hunt there was video and their careers possibly wrecked (Rice yes, Hunt not exactly), and now Foster avoiding severe punishment.

 

 

This is clearly true. Look at Big Ben. Look at Jeffery Simmons, who is still projected to go in the 1st, even though he has a torn ACL. I think he falls further than that, but not because of his domestic violence history. 

[The Consigliere]

3 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

Two LBs, as explosive as Foster & Bush, along with our rugged gentlemen in the middle, would give us more options to create a pass rush. Foster, Bush & Collins can all get to the QB in a hurry while our big boys are eating up blocks - we’ll need to be creative to help cover our limitations in the secondary & at olb.

 

You can do more with Devin Bush than you can with Clelin v the pass & in keeping Barkley/Elliot I’m check.

 

Ah, to have Derwin with those two, how nice it would be.

Thoughts of us passing on Derwin make me physically ill. Thought I’d gotten rid of my Draft ptsd after cerrato was finally s canned.

[Skinsinparadise]

38 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

 

I'm really confused as hell about Foster's off the field record. It looks as if all the pro incidents w/women have been reneged upon and it was really bad press more than anything that got him in trouble, but that also reminds of two factors.

 

#1 The league clearly doesn't give a crap about domestic violence/violence against women unless it's caught on video hence McCoy getting away with murder, no suspension so far for Tyreek Hill (and the Chiefs pretending they care about domestic violence when they kept Hill on the roster (no tape, plays a more valuable position) and ejected Hunt (there was video, and he plays a less valuable position) Rice and Hunt there was video and their careers possibly wrecked (Rice yes, Hunt not exactly), and now Foster avoiding severe punishment.

 

#2 Did the women in these stories make this up? Or have they wised up? Did they see what happened to Rice and Hunt and realize their is no money train if they get their guy's career derailed? Or is Foster innocent of everything except for taste in honest women. I have no idea. Does anyone have clarity in the stories? 

 

It's exceedingly confusing with Foster.  

 

Yeah I don't know.  But there is enough smoke that Foster has some character concerns.  I recall Saban said Foster needs a really good support system to keep him calm or something like that.  Doug when he talked about the acquisition in the mix of an interview on 980 said one of Foster's teammates told him that Foster is a bit of a con artist.  Then we got the weird blow up at the combine when he got into an altercation with medical staff and was asked to leave the combine.   If I recall a failed drug test.  And an incident with a gun which if I recall he got absolved on. 

 

As for this woman-incident -- I saw Keim say the fact that Foster already missed 5 games last year weighed into the decision since in effect he already was suspended.  And the fact that he got docked two pay checks in addition to that doesn't give the vibe that the NFL was completely happy with what happened.  

 

I liked Foster before that draft.  He wasn't one of my top guys though -- there were others here higher on him.  But the dude clearly can fly and is potentially a stud.  But I am not totally confident we are out of the woods with off field stuff plus he had injury concerns coming out of college which have bleed into the pros thus far.

 

It's an apples to oranges situation but it makes me think some about Sean Taylor having a mentor in Ryan Clark.   Position players spend a lot of time with each other.  So I wonder if spending time with a high character smart MLB like Devin Bush might be a really good thing for Foster albeit Bush is younger than him. 

 

If you team up Bush and Foster that's one heck of a tandem in terms of speed. 

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26508022/redskins-foster-suspended-nfl

he has committed to a comprehensive accountability plan developed by the league, the NFLPA, and the Washington Redskins to help him grow personally and avoid future misconduct. Foster was advised that any future incidents will likely result in more substantial discipline."

 

 

 

[Anselmheifer]

14 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

Thoughts of us passing on Derwin make me physically ill. Thought I’d gotten rid of my Draft ptsd after cerrato was finally s canned.

 

This is exactly why you don't draft for need. I like Payne. We could have had Derwin James, Maurice Hurst and Tim Settle and been going into an epically good DT draft this year with a shot at still another DT. Now we are going into a great DT draft, still don't have a FS, and even though I like Landon Collins, likely overpaid for Swearinger's replacement.

 

I also don't think the financial aspect makes sense in terms of drafting a guard super high. There was just that article analyzing how it is best to spend your money in the salary cap era and it definitely isn't at guard. Your best case scenario drafting a guard, that he is a pro-bowl caliber player, then means that you either let him go, or invest too much money at a position that doesn't give you the most juice for the squeeze. If you are drafting using analytics, which every team should be, to some degree, all of these things have to be factored in. 

[Skin'emAlive]

Derwin is a beast for sure. But pairing Payne and Allen together worked out much better than our record indicates. We are in a division with 2 of the top 3 running backs in the league. Elliot and Barkley are absolute bruisers who can take it to the house at any time, and are fed early and often. Payne and Allen shut them down last year (up until the mass casualties). Conversely, LA Chargers lost last year because they couldnt stop the New England power rushing game. Sony Michelle put up 130 and 3 tds. There is no doubt they will draft a DT in this draft. Simmons or Lawrence will be the target in the 1st. Otherwise, Tillery or Saunders will be the target in the 2nd.

[Anselmheifer]

I love all of the MLB breakdown, guys. I think I've been sleeping on Bush because of his relative lack of productivity in terms of being the tackling machine that Devin White is. White's production has been superlative, and I would rather have him, but that doesn't mean that Bush lacks solid instincts.

 

Watching Bush, he is going to be a sideline to sideline terror. He can blitz and rush the passer. He also I think is a little more physically violent than Devin White in terms of being a hitter. I think Bush winds up going before 15, but if not, he might be my favorite defensive player who is likely to be available at 15. Can anybody that has watched a little more of Devin Bush comment in a little more detail about his coverage ability?

 

 

 

I also think there is going to be some talent later in the draft at LB. Cashman Germaine Pratt and Jahlani Tavai could all represent solid value if they fall a little bit. In particular, I really think Germaine Pratt is being overlooked. He used to play FS, is great in coverage, but also was very productive as a blitzer this year, producing 6 sacks. Cashman seems to be getting an appropriate amount of love, and it looks like we brought him in to DC as one of our visits. 

 

Devin White

||
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/devin-white-1.html

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/devin-white?id=32195748-4939-9982-dafe-8aace4ba0d48

 

Devin Bush

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/devin-bush-2.html

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/devin-bush?id=32194255-5323-1883-1a34-05cf13caa3d4

 

Germaine Pratt

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/germaine-pratt-1.html

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/germaine-pratt?id=32195052-4163-5713-12ab-3117ec02a181

 

Jahlani Tavai

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/jahlani-tavai-1.html

no workout

 

Blake Cashman

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/blake-cashman-1.html

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/blake-cashman?id=32194341-5331-6185-2b37-0d7120bc9212

Leighton Vander Esch

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/leighton-vander-esch-1.html

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/leighton-vander esch?id=32462018-0002-5602-32a6-0b4e5b5e883e
 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

Watching Bush, he is going to be a sideline to sideline terror. He can blitz and rush the passer. He also I think is a little more physically violent than Devin White in terms of being a hitter. I think Bush winds up going before 15, but if not, he might be my favorite defensive player who is likely to be available at 15. Can anybody that has watched a little more of Devin Bush comment in a little more detail about his coverage ability?

 

 

I haven't dived in deep but have gone past the shallow end of the pool on Devin.  So from what I've seen so far, I think he has good instincts as for coverage.  Some actually differentiate Bush from White by saying Bush has better coverage ability.  To that point, White seems more likely to be fooled by play action than Bush.  Bush you can see back peddles quickly when he's initially fooled by play action or misdiagnoses the play.  Bush seems to guess the pass-run dynamic correctly a lot which I think is half the battle.

 

I noticed they often used him to defend running backs when they lined up wide for a pass.  So its funny it almost looks like Bush is actually covering wide receivers some times because he's lined up wide like a CB versus 4 receiver plus sets but am pretty sure that's just him covering the running back who is lining up for a pass.  Typically, a MLB on a RB is a mismatch but it doesn't look that way with Bush because of his athleticism and speed.   I think he would be a good tool against Barkley since the Giants use him so much as a passing weapon.

 

He doesn't seem to be a playmaker though in coverage as to turnovers though like Mack Wilson for example.   The things that jumps at me so much about Bush is how much the dude flies around the field at a speed that our defense doesn't have right now whether its going sideline to sideline to stuff a runner, chase a RB in coverage or to sack a QB.   I keep reading how his intangibles are off the charts.  So for me he's very intriguing.   

 

 

[Anselmheifer]

Regarding Blake Cashman, I have watched every snap vs Iowa State and Ohio State and Ohio State. I can no longer find the video vs. Iowa State to post.

 

After watching every snap of the Iowa game, I thought he strictly a nickel LB for now. He looked like he lacks functional strength. There were multiple plays where he just fell off of David Montgomery and Hakeem Butler against Iowa State.

 

He looked much better against Ohio State.  I don't know how to make a gif, so this won't be a Skinsinparadise style gif fest, but I'll point out the notable plays so you don't have to watch the whole video. 

 

 

 

1st play of the game: Destroys the RB trying to pass block. 

 

2:45 - It's 4th and 2. Cashman has a chance to make the tackle in the backfield, but goes for the feet of the RB, falls off, and Ohio State makes the first. 

 

5:03 - Shows some of what he can do in coverage though. gets an adequate drop and then stops the WR immediately to prevent the 1st down. 

 

5:17 - Fourth and short, bursts through the line and gets an immediate stop preventing the 1st down. 

 

6:35 - Lines up covering the slot WR, I think PARRIS CAMPBELL, and makes a nice play stopping him for about a 5 yard gain. 

 

10:07 - TFL. Sorts through trash and drops the RB in the backfield. 

 

10:14 - Sheds a blocker and tackles the receiver for a short gain. 

 

10:50 - Missed tackle. Goes for KJ Hill's feet and falls off. 

 

11:20- Flows to the ball and stops the RB for minimal gain

 

12:57 - Plays Haskins perfectly, containing the run, and then batting the pass when Haskins tries to pass the ball. 

There are still a couple missed tackles against Ohio State, and I think you are going to see that with Cashman in the NFL. He doesn't match up well against power backs and he isn't the best at wrapping up and sticking to tackles. On the other hand, he is super fast and drops well into coverage. I wouldn't be unhappy if we took him, but I think his value is in the 4th or later, and I worry that he is going to go much higher than that. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Depending on who's reporting it, Giants either like Lock or Jones.  Schrager who seems pretty plugged in seems to think its Lock.  Wonder if they'd take him though at 6?

 

Kiper on his podcast said that Hockenson is going top 10.  That would definitely fit recent mocks that are coming out. 

 

 

 

[JaxJoe]

On 4/11/2019 at 1:24 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

He’s not like the fastest guy but this dude knows how to run routes. He’s (expletive) physical and his ball skills are off the charts.

I’d like to put things in perspective. JJ Arcega Whiteside runs a 4.50 40 (draftscout.com) whereas Deebo Samual is 4.48 and AJ Brown is 4.49. One to two-one hundredths of a second slower shouldn't give a guy the condescending label “not the fastest guy.”  

 

But what really stands out to me is Whiteside’s uncanny ability to get his body between the defender and the ball. And that I think is his true great value. How long has it been since we’ve had a legitimate red zone tbreat?  Years!  I think Whiteside helps fix this. Defenses will have to double him with inside safety help, too. I’d love it if we could draft him in the 2nd round. 

[Skinsinparadise]

33 minutes ago, JaxJoe said:

I’d like to put things in perspective. JJ Arcega Whiteside runs a 4.50 40 (draftscout.com) whereas Deebo Samual is 4.48 and AJ Brown is 4.49. One to two-one hundredths of a second slower shouldn't give a guy the condescending label “not the fastest guy.”  

 

But what really stands out to me is Whiteside’s uncanny ability to get his body between the defender and the ball. And that I think is his true great value. How long has it been since we’ve had a legitimate red zone tbreat?  Years!  I think Whiteside helps fix this. Defenses will have to double him with inside safety help, too. I’d love it if we could draft him in the 2nd round. 

 

Sure.  I had two posts about Whiteside.  In the other one I touted the 4.49 speed.  It doesn't make him a burner but its good speed.  In a way there are some similarities to Doctson profile wise as to their strengths in college.  They are about the same height and speed -- Whiteside is thicker.  Whiteside's strength arguably is his acrobatic ball skills coupled with his ability to win contested catches.  Ditto Doctson at TCU.   I think Whiteside plays tougher and likely separates better than Doctson does -- albeit Whiteside IMO isn't great at separating. 

 

I liked Doctson coming out of the draft.  Looks like I was wrong about him.  In retrospect, I wished I watched some interviews of Doctson.  Cooley likes to say a key X factor as to whether a player succeeds or not is whether they love football and in turn willing to put in the time to be great.

 

Cooley might have gone too far with it but he challenged early on about whether Doctson loved football.  Though Cooley said he heard that from someone at Redskins Park.       I've watched some Whiteside interviews and while the dude doesn't seem full of personality, he does have some personality.  And he was team captain.  So I think he might have the intangibles that Doctson arguably is missing. 

 

Your post gave me an excuse to post some of the highlights I liked of Whiteside.  I didn't post it back then when I wrote about him because for some reason that day the thread wasn't allowing me to post video.   I'd be cool with Whiteside.  I don't love him.  But I do like him.  I'd be cool if we took him outside the first round.  PFF loves him.  

 

 

[JaxJoe]

18 hours ago, Califan007 said:

Imagine adding Collins, Reuben Foster, and an elite edge rusher all in the same offseason. 

And maybe Darnell Savage in the 3rd who I think would be a perfect compliment to Collins. Savage can also play slot corner and then having him on the line, a safety blitz. 

[mhd24]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I haven't dived in deep but have gone past the shallow end of the pool on Devin.  So from what I've seen so far, I think he has good instincts as for coverage.  Some actually differentiate Bush from White by saying Bush has better coverage ability.  To that point, White seems more likely to be fooled by play action than Bush.  Bush you can see back peddles quickly when he's initially fooled by play action or misdiagnoses the play.  Bush seems to guess the pass-run dynamic correctly a lot which I think is half the battle.

 

I noticed they often used him to defend running backs when they lined up wide for a pass.  So its funny it almost looks like Bush is actually covering wide receivers some times because he's lined up wide like a CB versus 4 receiver plus sets but am pretty sure that's just him covering the running back who is lining up for a pass.  Typically, a MLB on a RB is a mismatch but it doesn't look that way with Bush because of his athleticism and speed.   I think he would be a good tool against Barkley since the Giants use him so much as a passing weapon.

 

He doesn't seem to be a playmaker though in coverage as to turnovers though like Mack Wilson for example.   The things that jumps at me so much about Bush is how much the dude flies around the field at a speed that our defense doesn't have right now whether its going sideline to sideline to stuff a runner, chase a RB in coverage or to sack a QB.   I keep reading how his intangibles are off the charts.  So for me he's very intriguing.   

 

 

 

Here's a nice scouting report on Bush (also includes reports on Gary and Winovich):

 

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/4/11/18305298/michigan-defense-nfl-draft-prospects-devin-bush-rashaan-gary-chase-winovich

 

Denver, Cinci, and GB could all take Bush.  Doubt ATL and Miami take him.  So, if slips by GB (who take o-line instead) and Cinci (who takes QB, DT, or Edge) then he could be there at 15.

11 minutes ago, JaxJoe said:

And maybe Darnell Savage in the 3rd who I think would be a perfect compliment to Collins. Savage can also play slot corner and then having him on the line, a safety blitz. 

 

 

Doubt Savage lasts till the 3rd.  He's a 2nd rounder at least (with some talk of him going late 1).

[Skin'emAlive]

I wanted to post some of those Whiteside videos in the mock draft thread. This guy is a mismatch in the redzone every time. He knows exactly how to box out and keep the ball in a position that only he can catch. He has good hands, and can target and attack the ball. For as big as he is, he's not the greatest blocker, but he isnt terrible either Doesnt have much of a rumble ability either for a bigger guy. So dont look for him to bowl over anyone. But he does have break away speed due to his strides. He was a leader in the deep threat game last year. He also has an array of head fakes and quick feet at the line of scrimmage that allows him to get a step on his man at times. However its his box out ability and height that causes the step.

 

Set up the fade on the back shoulder a few times, and you will start catching the db cheating to the outside to try to stop it. Whiteside has the ability to recognize the db cheating on option routes, and has the quick feet and burst ability fake the fade and take it deep. Its a simple strategy, but it works. If you pair him with a qb that can hit touch passes, and go routes, he will thrive.

 

Id really like him here in DC, depending on the QB drafted. I dont think he would pair well with Lock.

[Skin'emAlive]

 

This is what Im talking about right here. Whiteside absolutely abused Oregon on this night, and after a handful of bully ball, the db cheats inside to try to contest, and JJ recognizes this and takes an easy one to the corner. He does this every game, and this translates well to the NFL.

This is the exact same play, but the db doesnt completely take the bite on the head fake. But it doesnt matter, because now JJ has the step, and boxes his man out the rest of the route.

[Skin'emAlive]

Here is the exact same play again, but JJ takes it to the inside, and boxes his man out for an easy post option route. Once he establishes inside dominance, its over.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I effin' love this thread lol...I don't have to go searching for draft analysis, I just come here and read everyone's write-ups, they're as good as most out there anyway.

 

Kudos, gentlemen (and ladies if I missed any).