2019 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[RWJ]

55 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Ferrell isnt my top choice at 15. But I wouldn't mind them taking him at all. I haven't watched Ferrell in quite some time so I'd need to refresh. But I recall liking what I saw.

 

Yeah I do think he totally fits how they operate of late in the first round.

 

High floor player.

 

Well rounded - they typically prefer edge players who can stop the run and are typically power rushers as opposed to speed rushers.

 

Big time-winning school

 

Fills a need

 

Leader, high character type. This isn't a must it seems for them but it wouldn't surprise me if it puts him over the top.

 

If you compare him to Burns for example. Burns is arguably higher ceiling but lower floor. He isn't hot at stopping the run. He isn't as highly regarded as to leadership. And FSU isnt as a prestigious as Clemson right now as to their football programs.

 

So I can see them preferring Ferrell over Burns. But who knows. That's just my guess.

 

 

Afternoon, SIP.   Curious as to who your top choice is at #15.

[Est.1974]

Unless we see someone drop to us at #15 in the same context as Jon Allen where he becomes a sure fire must have pick, for me we simply have to move back. Acquire a couple of extra picks through day two / or one plus claw back a fourth rounder. Too much talent available picks 20-100.

 

OL,WR,DB,QB,Edge and TE or ILB in any particular could be added. 

[RWJ]

2 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

Unless we see someone drop to us at #15 in the same context as Jon Allen where he becomes a sure fire must have pick, for me we simply have to move back. Acquire a couple of extra picks through day two / or one plus claw back a fourth rounder. Too much talent available picks 20-100.

 

OL,WR,DB,QB,Edge and TE or ILB in any particular could be added. 

I will say this 74, I've cooled on sending AZ our #15 for Rosen but would send our 2nd round pick.  If Sweat fell to #15 I'd take him all day long.  Other than that, I'm with you.  Trade down.

[mhd24]

1 hour ago, Master Blaster said:

Jonah Williams is the solid but non-sexy pick. 

 

Kind of like when the board got upset the Redskins drafted Scherff instead of Leonard Williams.   Hindsight it was a good move. 

 

Take Williams and plug him in at LG. Maybe he eventually replaces TW. Hard to say but gives a solid five on the o-line which will make up for deficiencies elsewhere on offense more than a WR will. 

 

I don't think Jonah Williams will be there.  Jags could take him over Taylor at 7, Bills could take him at 9, Jets could take him if they trade down (to a team wanting Q. Williams), Cinci could take him at 11 (unlikely), Gb could easily take him at 12, Miami could take him at 13 (to replace the departing James at RT), ATL could take him at 14 (to replace the cut Schroeder).

[PlayAction]

29 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

Unless we see someone drop to us at #15 in the same context as Jon Allen where he becomes a sure fire must have pick, for me we simply have to move back. Acquire a couple of extra picks through day two / or one plus claw back a fourth rounder. Too much talent available picks 20-100.

 

If there's no sure-fire player then other teams are unlikely to want to trade up.  As you said - - too much talent available at picks 20-100.  Only 14 players get selected before the Skins so any of the ones listed could be available.  Some are more likely than others.  I think the choice seems to come down to Jonah Williams OT; Ferrell or Burns (Edge),  or Hockenson. I'd be happy with Williams or Hockenson.  I'd be happy if the Skins select an Edge.  Ferrell versus Burns would be an easier decision if I knew how the Skins intend to use the player.  The analysis on Ferrell sounds like he'd be better as DE.  Burns has potential to be more of the OLB rush and cover hybrid player.   Front office needs to be on the same page as coaches.     

[Ghedrick]

2 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

Ferrell would be the quintessential Redskins pick of recent history. High motor. Big time college program. Has won championships. Has production. 

 

I'm not sure I would like the pick at 15. I think Ferrell is a nastier Preston Smith. He has a lower ceiling because he lacks the speed. Watching him, I don't think he's as fast as Ryan Kerrigan. There is a reason he didn't run the 40 or do the vertical or broad jumps at the combine or at his pro day. Those numbers weren't going to help him. He also played on an utterly stacked line the whole time he was at Clemson. Clelin's natural draft range to me is as a second rounder. I couldn't help but notice that in Kiper's most recent 3 round mock, Clelin falls to the second. 

I feel the quintessential Redskin pick of recent history is the only thing this team has going for them.The 2016 draft they went for playmaking ability instead of sticking to the script and it has cost big time.Doctson and Cravens have ability to make big plays but they lack work ethic and heart that most of all our recent top picks.Take Ferrell all day over some guy with that makes splash plays.The floor for Ferrell is a tremendous run defender with 7-10 sacks a year I'll take it.I feel he has zero bust potential.Compared to someone like Burns.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, RWJ said:

Afternoon, SIP.   Curious as to who your top choice is at #15.

 

OK, I'll give you my take as to my favorites but I'll do it based on what I think are realistic expectations as for who will be there. 

 

if we stay at 15

1.  Hockenson (I doubt he falls but there is a shot he does)

2.  Brian Burns  (I think a speed rusher would help make our D line special)

3. D. Bush (this is a very recent man crush for me)

4. J.  Williams

5. C. Ferrell

6. Drew Lock

 

If we trade downs to the 20s

1. Ferrell (I think there is a chance he's still there. It actually reminds me a lot of last year where I felt Payne would still be there if they traded down some)

2. Marquise Brown (only if they are confident about his health)

3. Cody Ford (I think the dude is a beast) 

4. D. Risner (I haven't watched him yet but love everything I've read and heard)

 

 

Here's how I did the math.  I'd say 0 shot at group A.  

 

A Group

Q. Williams

J. Bosa

D. White

J. Allen

J. Taylor

K. Murray

 

These guys are looking likely to go before 14

 

B Group

Sweat

Hockenson

Haskins

Lock

J. Williams

R. Gary

E. Oliver

D. Bush

 

C Group.  Wildcards that sometimes creep into that range

Daniel Jones

Greedy Williams

C. Wilkins

D. Lawrence

DK Metcalf

A. Dillard

B. Burns

 

D. Group  Mega wildcards that on very rare occasions show in that range

Noah Fant

C. Ferrell

M. Brown

 

That's not me ranking my favorite players in categories but purely going on mock drafts and gossip from draft geeks on podcasts, etc.  It's impossible to sort what is correct or not.  But I'd say this is the common version of overlap takes on the draft.  If the mocks are correct then Group A seems slam dunk going before 15.  Group B players are likely going before 15.   Group C are guys that on occasion I see creep into the top 15.  Group D -- on very rare occasion I see in the top 15.  Ferrell to me is on the edge of group C and group D as for how often of late I see him top 15.  Early in the process he was almost always top 15. 

 

All that has to happen is one player from group C or D to break that top 14.  And I'd say chances are good that it goes down.  Then one of the Group B guys will be within reach.  Among them I think the most likely to drop is J. Williams or D. Bush.  D. Bush is a recent climber in mocks -- and i don't know if that's based on any reality but it makes sense to me so i am buying it because I love the player.  I like Sweat a lot but doubt he's realistic but you never know.  I've read the Giants love him and might take him at 6. 

 

[Est.1974]

1 hour ago, PlayAction said:

 

If there's no sure-fire player then other teams are unlikely to want to trade up.     

 

I disagree. There are always teams wanting to snag a specific player.

1 hour ago, RWJ said:

I will say this 74, I've cooled on sending AZ our #15 for Rosen but would send our 2nd round pick.  If Sweat fell to #15 I'd take him all day long.  Other than that, I'm with you.  Trade down.

 

My trade idea for Rosen was #15 for him plus their #33, and I agree, I've cooled on that too. I think I'm at a 3 this year and conditional 3 next year at this stage.

[Going Commando]

6 hours ago, mhd24 said:

Was listening to Tony Pauline and he LOVES Ferrell.  Compares him to Payne in the sense that he was super underrated last year.  Pauline has Ferrell as his 7th best player.  I'm pretty sure Ferrell will be there at 15.  SkinsinParadise has repeatedly said that Ferrell is the FO type of player (leader, safe pick, from the area, etc).  

 

He's one of my favorite players in the class.  He was a good and precocious talent at Clemson, impact player as a freshman, good enough to go in the first round of he'd come out last draft, and now a two time champ.  He was a leader for arguably the greatest college football class in the history of the sport, along with Wilkins.  And despite all of that, I think his best football is ahead of him.  He's got quite a bit of untapped upside IMO.  I have him as a top ten talent too, and he and Byron Murphy are my two favorite choices at 15 if Haskins is gone.

[Going Commando]

Ferrell is Everson Griffen with more size and power and better instincts.  He's all natural talent and instincts right now.  Comes to the line to speed rush, minimal development of counters, very underdeveloped rush plan, and a body that has not yet been sculpted for the NFL.  When I see him work through his counters, I see a lack of comfort and I see a player thinking and falling behind the rep.  I see a guy who gets stymied after the failure of the initial move.  These are common weaknesses in raw prospects.  And you can project improvement in them.  You can also project him to lose his sloppy weight and become more athletic on a more mature diet and in an NFL conditioning regime.

 

I think he'll end up being the third best edge player from the class after Allen and Bosa.

[RWJ]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK, I'll give you my take as to my favorites but I'll do it based on what I think are realistic expectations as for who will be there. 

 

if we stay at 15

1.  Hockenson (I doubt he falls but there is a shot he does)

2.  Brian Burns  (I think a speed rusher would help make our D line special)

3. D. Bush (this is a very recent man crush for me)

4. J.  Williams

5. C. Ferrell

6. Drew Lock

 

If we trade downs to the 20s

1. Ferrell (I think there is a chance he's still there. It actually reminds me a lot of last year where I felt Payne would still be there if they traded down some)

2. Marquise Brown (only if they are confident about his health)

3. Cody Ford (I think the dude is a beast) 

4. D. Risner (I haven't watched him yet but love everything I've read and heard)

 

 

Here's how I did the math.  I'd say 0 shot at group A.  

 

A Group

Q. Williams

J. Bosa

D. White

J. Allen

J. Taylor

K. Murray

 

These guys are looking likely to go before 14

 

B Group

Sweat

Hockenson

Haskins

Lock

J. Williams

R. Gary

E. Oliver

D. Bush

 

C Group.  Wildcards that sometimes creep into that range

Daniel Jones

Greedy Williams

C. Wilkins

D. Lawrence

DK Metcalf

A. Dillard

B. Burns

 

D. Group  Mega wildcards that on very rare occasions show in that range

Noah Fant

C. Ferrell

M. Brown

 

That's not me ranking my favorite players in categories but purely going on mock drafts and gossip from draft geeks on podcasts, etc.  It's impossible to sort what is correct or not.  But I'd say this is the common version of overlap takes on the draft.  If the mocks are correct then Group A seems slam dunk going before 15.  Group B players are likely going before 15.   Group C are guys that on occasion I see creep into the top 15.  Group D -- on very rare occasion I see in the top 15.  Ferrell to me is on the edge of group C and group D as for how often of late I see him top 15.  Early in the process he was almost always top 15. 

 

All that has to happen is one player from group C or D to break that top 14.  And I'd say chances are good that it goes down.  Then one of the Group B guys will be within reach.  Among them I think the most likely to drop is J. Williams or D. Bush.  D. Bush is a recent climber in mocks -- and i don't know if that's based on any reality but it makes sense to me so i am buying it because I love the player.  I like Sweat a lot but doubt he's realistic but you never know.  I've read the Giants love him and might take him at 6. 

 

As always, thanks for your input.   I can't wait for draft night. 

[Going Commando]

I watched Voch Lombardi's video on Montez Sweat and he made the comparison to Danielle Hunter, and it clicked for me.  That's who I've been seeing with him too.  That's his best case scenario IMO.  That said, I'm not sure he's as instinctive as Hunter, and I don't think he'll end up making as many plays in the run game.

 

I think Voch did a good job of highlighting Sweat's weaknesses and areas for improvement.  Some of the same problems Ferrell has--gets by on athleticism alone, doesn't have an arsenal of counters, underdeveloped rush plan.  But I think Sweat is a weaker prospect.  He looks even stiffer than Ferrell, he doesn't have the same level of functional power (although he's not exactly a weakling), and he's not as explosive as Clelin is.

 

Montez's 40 time was pretty shocking because he doesn't play very fast at the DE position.  He's a very gifted long strider who runs like a basketball athlete.  That showed up in the blazing 40 time.  But he doesn't have any twitch, which shows up on the football field.  The first step is a big step down from Clelin, which is why I'd draft Clelin ahead of him.

 

He's a definite first round talent though.  He's very raw, but like Hunter, the upside is pretty huge if you can successfully develop him.  And in two seasons as a starter, he had 22 sacks, so it's not like he wasn't productive.

[Anselmheifer]

20 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I like Arcega-Whiteside too and had him with a first roundish grade initially, but he is a lot shorter than his bull**** listing.  There is a big difference in value between a 6'2 red zone specialist and a 6'4-6'5 one.  He's a second rounder IMO.

 

As far as the OLs go, there are no real studs in this year's class to glom onto at 15.  Dillard is good, but not really anything special.  Same for Taylor and Ford and Williams.  There is quite a bit of first round value, but the top DLs are way, way better than all of the OLs this year.  And it's not close.  That's where the value will be at 15.  That or corner or quarterback.

 

Guards are valuable, but not close to as valuable as edge rushers and corners are.  And not as valuable as dominant A and B gap rushers either.

 

Not a big fan of Devin Bush at all.  Undersized stack linebackers who don't produce aren't worth first round picks.

 

Neither are 160 pound receivers with a Lisfranc injury.  Brown is an extremely dynamic player who absolutely does not have an NFL body and who will spend as much time out with injury as Chris Thompson.

 

Byron Murphy is a stud.  He's not just a zone corner either, this kid is a competitor who battles in single coverage and can play press and off.  He does it all.  He's average sized, Baker is a small corner.  And he's about a thousand percent more physical than Greedy despite the difference in their size. 

 

So much good stuff in here. Completely agree about Byron Murphy. 

I don't think Devin Bush is undersized. He was 1 inch shorter and 3 pounds lighter than Devin White at the combine, and essentially had the same hand size and arm length. He's 3 inches shorter than Germaine Pratt, but only 6 pounds lighter and has longer arms and bigger hands. Unlike Blake Cashman, Devin Bush plays big in terms of his tackling. He will stick a bigger running back in the hole and stone him. I love the idea of Devin Bush playing next to Foster and behind Allen and Payne and Kerrigan and Ioannidis. Imagine this defense with the addition of Foster and Bush and Landon Collins. The front 7 would be soooo good. One thing I can't speak to regarding Bush, is how he plays through trash and defeats blocks, so maybe someone with a better eye could speak to that. 

 

I don't know about Marquise Brown. Not only is he injured, but he is tiny. On the other hand, someone just posted an article from a medical journal that showed that over 90% of NFL players that experienced a lis franc injury, returned to play with no statistical decrease in production. Brown is dynamic. I'd love him on the team, but the problem is that there are 5 or 6 guys I'd love on the team at 15. I do think that Brown has a chance to be a Desean Jackson or Tyreek Hill type player. I've seen him projected to Indianapolis lately. That is really scary for everyone else in the AFC. There are going to be multiple really good players available when Indianapolis picks. If they get Johnathan Abram, or Marquise Brown, I will be green with envy. 

I agree about OL being underwhelming at 15. I think there will be value at OL beginning at the top of the 2nd. 

Regarding your later post Montez Sweat, I just rewatched a bit of his film, and I like him more than I did. I haven't watched enough of Danielle Hunter to comment on that comparison. The thing I like about Sweat upon rewatching his film, is his speed to power. I think Sweat actually does play fast, but struggles with stiffness. He certainly looks much faster than Ferrell. He looks much slower than Burns, which is ironic given their testing results. Sweat just plays like a strong guy however. He reminds me of Kerrigan in that way. He can get to the edge, but also push you back and disengage and get to the QB. 

 

I think everyone should now go and watch Juan Thornhill broad jump. 

 

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/juan-thornhill?id=32195448-4f54-9495-af73-48eb17033beb

[Anselmheifer]

9 hours ago, Ghedrick said:

I feel the quintessential Redskin pick of recent history is the only thing this team has going for them.The 2016 draft they went for playmaking ability instead of sticking to the script and it has cost big time.Doctson and Cravens have ability to make big plays but they lack work ethic and heart that most of all our recent top picks.Take Ferrell all day over some guy with that makes splash plays.The floor for Ferrell is a tremendous run defender with 7-10 sacks a year I'll take it.I feel he has zero bust potential.Compared to someone like Burns.

I half agree with you, and I didn't exactly mean it in a bad way. I think that as a whole, we have been drafting very well. Last year, I thought we reached terribly on Geron Christian and Troy Apke. Especially Troy Apke. But, every team has misses. I almost can't imagine liking rounds 5-7 more than Tim Settle, SDH, Greg Stroman and Trey Quinn. I honestly think that those are 4 players that all have an honest chance to be starters, at some point. 

I do think that drafting for safety and need are problematic. We could have has Derwin James, Maurice Hurst, and Tim Settle last year, instead of Payne, Apke and Settle. That isn't hindsight on my part. Many on the board were screaming for those players. Sure, we missed on Doctson and Cravens, but that wasn't even the current regime. WR's have a high bust rate. That is just going to happen sometimes. And I'd rather swing and miss on a playmaker in the 2nd than draft Trent Murphy or Ryan Anderson. Jesus. I like Anderson, but those guys were always what all of the fans on this board said they were, low ceiling players. Their likely best case scenario didn't justify a 2nd. I don't like Ben Banogu until the 3rd this year, but give me a Ben Banogu over a Murphy/Anderson any day. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Just in case it wasn't mentioned yet in the thread...

 

Josh Norris‏Verified account @JoshNorris

I'm told Alabama State OL Tytus Howard is visiting the #Redskins on Monday

 

 

Report: Redskins met with Boston College OL Chris Lindstrom

https://www.thezonereport.com/report-redskins-met-with-boston-college-ol-chris-lindstrom/

 

[skinny21]

I don’t love the value of the olinemen at 15, but trade down to the 20’s and you’ve got a shot at Ford, Lindstrom, Risner, Dillard, etc.  The idea of adding a legit starter to the oline (impacting Guice/AP and our qb) and also adding a pick or two between the 2nd-4th is very appealing to me.  

[Skinsinparadise]

From Breer today

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/04/15/packers-matt-lafleur-aaron-rodgers-russell-wilson-draft-risers-sliders-sleepers-tiger-woods-masters?xid=socialflow_twitter_si&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sinow

2. One thing I always find interesting is how coaches intertwine themselves into the process this time of year, and how their assessments of players can affect those players’ stock. So I’ve got three guys here who, from what I understand, have benefitted from the coaches’ involvement. One is Missouri quarterback Drew Lock, as we mentioned in Thursday’s Game Plan column—he’s sharp, and has good presence, and talent to work with. Another is Michigan linebacker Devin Bush. The consensus is that the smallish Bush is behind LSU’s Devin White as the second off-ball linebacker in the class, but some coaches actually like the son of former NFL safety of the same name better. And a third is Boston College guard Chris Lindstrom, a smart, clean prospect with the versatility to play center (a Falcons contingent including GM Thomas Dimitroff, assistant GM Scott Pioli and coach Dan Quinn worked him out on campus a couple days ago. Atlanta is picking 14th).

 

 

 Bush’s Michigan teammate Rashan Gary is a good bet to go a little lower than some expect—especially for someone with his athletic profile—and I’m told teams further down in the first round are doing work on him to prepare for the possibility he falls. Gary came in at 6’5” and 277 pounds in Indy, ran a 4.58 40, posted a 38-inch vertical and a 10-foot broad jump. He can play inside or out. And he plays hard. But questions have persisted about the former No. 1 overall high school recruit’s production. He’s still raw, and that may cause questions about coaching, except that the guy who played opposite him at Michigan—Chase Winovich—was a very technically sound and evolved defensive lineman, and more productive than Gary. “Clearly, the coaching was available to him,” said one scout. So the difficulty teams have had in seeing the gap between talent and impact is leading some teams to backing off of Gary. At one point he was a top-10 lock. At this point that’s definitely not the case. In fact, it seems like there’s a decent chance Bush goes ahead of him.

 

4. On Lock, I had a college scouting director tell me the other day that he believes the Missouri quarterback has been helped by the success of Patrick Mahomes. What did he mean? “There’s a narrative there,” he said. “The way this guy plays, the way he throws from different body positions, he’s an athlete. He’s throwing sidearm, slinging it while he’s bouncing around. You may not be sure how you’d coach it up, but he can make it work. And then you take the attitude and demeanor, he’s really smart like Pat was. He’s not Mahomes, but that Mahomes has this success without traditional mechanics should help him.” I wouldn’t be surprised to hear this again about the more freewheeling quarterback prospects in the years to come.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

I don't think Devin Bush is undersized. He was 1 inch shorter and 3 pounds lighter than Devin White at the combine, and essentially had the same hand size and arm length. He's 3 inches shorter than Germaine Pratt, but only 6 pounds lighter and has longer arms and bigger hands. Unlike Blake Cashman, Devin Bush plays big in terms of his tackling. He will stick a bigger running back in the hole and stone him. I love the idea of Devin Bush playing next to Foster and behind Allen and Payne and Kerrigan and Ioannidis.

 

Me too.  And as Finlay pointed out today in the article below.  I said the same thing yesterday on another thread.  Foster is a bit of a wildcard both in terms of behavioral issues that extend beyond the recent incident and he also has an injury history.   So having Bush provides some insurance on that front among other things.

 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

I don't know about Marquise Brown. Not only is he injured, but he is tiny. On the other hand, someone just posted an article from a medical journal that showed that over 90% of NFL players that experienced a lis franc injury, returned to play with no statistical decrease in production. Brown is dynamic. I'd love him on the team, but the problem is that there are 5 or 6 guys I'd love on the team at 15. I do think that Brown has a chance to be a Desean Jackson or Tyreek Hill type player. I've seen him projected to Indianapolis lately. That is really scary for everyone else in the AFC. There are going to be multiple really good players available when Indianapolis picks. If they get Johnathan Abram, or Marquise Brown, I will be green with envy. 
 

 

The dude if healthy IMO will be a star.   There are a lot of receivers I like in this draft.  But the one dude who would scare me and I really don't want to see play for another team in the NFC East is Brown.  Sometimes i use that metric to judge who i like.  That is, what player wouldn't I like seeing play against us.   Among the receivers for me that dude is Brown.  I wouldn't take him at 15.  But if his medicals check out, I'd consider him in a trade down. 

 

10 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

I agree about OL being underwhelming at 15. I think there will be value at OL beginning at the top of the 2nd. 

 

 

I agree with you and Stevemcqueen on a lot but not this point.  Jonah Williams at 15 IMO would be a really good pick.  He's not even my top choice at 15 but I'd like it if they took him.  It seemed to be played up by some about Ferrell getting him for a sack in the championship game.    Beyond that what did Williams give up like one sack all year?  I don't recall his stats but I do recall it was ridiculously good. 

 

He has quick feet and hands.  He can both run block and pass block well.   He gets to the 2nd level well.    If you read about him he also has ridiculous intangibles.  Studies like mad and supposedly even helped Alabama with their offensive game planning. 

 

I doubt he's there at 15 but if he is, I'd be happy if they took him.  If they traded down a little I also love Cody Ford and started to watch Risner and I like him, too.  I think its a good draft in the first round for guard.   It wouldn't be what I'd do with the pick.  But to me I wouldn't be unhappy if they came out of the first round somehow with one of those players. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PlayAction]

After three months of talking about flashy players and what-ifs, teams go back to the tried-and-true.  If he's available at 15 the choice for me comes down to OT versus Edge.  Williams and Wiliams on the left side - - - that's a nice fantasy but not likely for many reasons.  Any player rising means that someone is falling.  I just hope that history repeats itself and the QBs all go early as that leaves more options for the Skins.  

[Going Commando]

I think 15 is decent value for Jonah Williams.  But I have Christian Wilkins, Byron Murphy, and Clelin Ferrell ahead of him.

 

Jonah is the cleanest guard prospect, but Jawan Taylor is more talented than him, and Cody Ford is a better athlete than him too.

 

Jonah will be able to start as a rookie.  He gets the job done, and he is a really nice lateral mover and runner for his size.  But I am not inspired by his physicality and toughness... He's not necessarily soft like Rashan Gary.  He's just got no nasty in him.  And getting his butt kicked by Clelin Ferrell in his last game was not a good look.  It showed that he'll get big boyed by the real elite players who bring true nastiness and power to the table.

[mhd24]

37 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I think 15 is decent value for Jonah Williams.  But I have Christian Wilkins, Byron Murphy, and Clelin Ferrell ahead of him.

 

Jonah is the cleanest guard prospect, but Jawan Taylor is more talented than him, and Cody Ford is a better athlete than him too.

 

Jonah will be able to start as a rookie.  He gets the job done, and he is a really nice lateral mover and runner for his size.  But I am not inspired by his physicality and toughness... He's not necessarily soft like Rashan Gary.  He's just got no nasty in him.  And getting his butt kicked by Clelin Ferrell in his last game was not a good look.  It showed that he'll get big boyed by the real elite players who bring true nastiness and power to the table.

 

 

OL tend to rise in the draft day (See Mcglinchey and Kolton Miller last year).  I don't see Jonah Williams getting to 15 anyways.  Taylor, Williams, and Dillard could all be gone by 14 (which would help an impact defender fall to us).  Jags, Bills, Cinci, GB, Miami, and ATL could all draft o-line.

[Going Commando]

8 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

I don't think Devin Bush is undersized. He was 1 inch shorter and 3 pounds lighter than Devin White at the combine, and essentially had the same hand size and arm length. He's 3 inches shorter than Germaine Pratt, but only 6 pounds lighter and has longer arms and bigger hands. Unlike Blake Cashman, Devin Bush plays big in terms of his tackling. He will stick a bigger running back in the hole and stone him. I love the idea of Devin Bush playing next to Foster and behind Allen and Payne and Kerrigan and Ioannidis. Imagine this defense with the addition of Foster and Bush and Landon Collins. The front 7 would be soooo good. One thing I can't speak to regarding Bush, is how he plays through trash and defeats blocks, so maybe someone with a better eye could speak to that. 

 

The short answer to your quesion is: "not great."  He's a natural chase and hit weakside linebacker/box safety who, surprisingly, isn't great playing downhill.  He just kind of passive when he isn't blitzing.  He will either patty cake with blockers or take the long way around, which becomes a problem when he gets fooled because those A and B gaps open up big.

 

I do not believe it's an issue of physicality or strength.  I believe that it's an issue of instincts and length.  He's a read and react player that doesn't have the best feel for the position.  And I also think he's a cog in the machine type of player who is content to just catch runners in his area or chase them down when he's clean, rather than a leader and tone setter that's going to go out and get his a la Reuben Foster.  He's just not big enough to play through blockers and eat their punches while keeping his eyes in the backfield, and take sharp angles to the ball.

 

I view Devin White as small for the position, too, and Bush is undersized.  White is a much more active and aggressive player than him though, which is where the difference in their production really stands out.  As an aside, I think White is being overrated as top ten pick, and that his real value is in the teens.  But back to Bush, his frame looks maxed out to me, especially in the lower half, and I do not think he'll be able to add bulk without losing speed.  I think 5'11 ~230 is what you get with him, and at that size, there will be issues with gap control.

 

If he had superb instincts to get ahead of the rep on a consistent basis like London Fletcher did, then I could see him being far more productive despite the size disadvantage.  But his play doesn't show those kind of instincts.

 

I think he'll be confined to a box safety or weakside stack role where you mainly scheme for him to blitz or man cover Ys and running backs.  But I also think projecting him to be an elite cover guy at the position involves assuming a lot of growth because I thought he was just OK in coverage this season.  The hips and footspeed are about as elite as it gets for a LB--truly special stuff--but the technique and route recognition were average, or perhaps below average.  But for the purposes of determining his draft value, let's say we can clean him up and project him to be an elite man coverage guy at the position--that still wouldn't give him first round value for me.  His size and instincts limit his production and versatility, as well as reliability in run defense.  I don't see him being well suited to an A gap fill role, and I'd feel better about him playing off to the weakside if he didn't get fooled by misdirection so much.

 

IMO he has second round value, but that is based on his athleticism and assumes growth in his play recognition skills that might never materialize.  And if we look at him in the context of the Redskins instead of in a vacuum, that hurts his value further IMO, because we spent so much on Collins that we can't really afford to invest a first round pick on box safety depth, and I don't think he can beat out Reuben Foster for the weakside stack job.  I think Reuben is definitely better than him.  So for me to draft Devin, it has to be a scenario where he is far and away the BPA, and I don't think we reach that situation until the second or third round.

 

If we're going to draft a smallish stack linebacker with the intent to eventually play him next to Reuben, I like the value of taking Te'Von Coney 100-140 a lot more than White at 15 or Bush at 46.  I think he's a noticeably better run defender than both of them, and I think he made strides in his coverages this year to the point where he won't crap his pants if he has to guard a flat or curl.

[Skinsinparadise]

27 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

OL tend to rise in the draft day (See Mcglinchey and Kolton Miller last year).  I don't see Jonah Williams getting to 15 anyways.  Taylor, Williams, and Dillard could all be gone by 14 (which would help an impact defender fall to us).  Jags, Bills, Cinci, GB, Miami, and ATL could all draft o-line.

 

Agree.  I just looked at Brugler's final top 100 board for the first time.  I don't always agree with Brugler (especially this year as to QBs) but often I do.  He has Jonah as the 4th best player on his board.  I think J. Taylor is a given top 15.  Jonah probably too.  Wouldn't shock me if Dillard makes it too.   I don't agree with some of this order wise.  However, I'll give Brugler that he does his homework.  His draft guide which I just downloaded IMO is the best out there as for detail and by a mile.  And the dude is willing to go against convention. 

 

For those interested his top 14 -- going with 14 since its below our pick

1. Bosa

2. Q. Williams

3. Josh Allen

4. Jonah Williams

5. Ed Oliver

6. TJ Hockenson

7. Montez Sweat

8. Christian Wilkins

9. Andre Dillard

10.  Devin Bush

11. Brian Burns

12.  Devin White

13. Rashan Gary

14. Jawaan Taylor

 

As for some of the guys we've recently discussed here:

C. Ford #19

B. Murphy #20

Ferrell #21

N. Fant #23

DK Metcalf #27

Marquise Brown #28

 

 

[Going Commando]

20 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

OL tend to rise in the draft day (See Mcglinchey and Kolton Miller last year).  I don't see Jonah Williams getting to 15 anyways.  Taylor, Williams, and Dillard could all be gone by 14 (which would help an impact defender fall to us).  Jags, Bills, Cinci, GB, Miami, and ATL could all draft o-line. 

 

You're right that they tend to rise.  That's probably more true for guys projected to play tackle, but that also might include Taylor and Williams. as teams will probably try and keep them there before moving them to guard.

 

I think 15 is fair value for each of the three guys you mentioned, and I wouldn't cry about taking them there.  They're each good.  But I don't think any of them would be the BPA at 15, because I think both Byron Murphy and Clelin Ferrell will be there.  And I think Christian Wilkins in a one gap scheme is better than Taylor and Williams too.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

Redskins meeting with their share of big name O lineman for what's it worth

 

 

On another note, just listened to Craig Hoffman, he said there are concerns about Foster in the building in terms of him being a good professional where he does his job and shows up to work every day.  I know there are concerns about his off field stuff and injuries but the professional stuff -- that's the first I've heard about that.  Hopefully, having his pals on this team helps keep him on the right path.  I've heard multiple times he's close with Ryan Anderson.  It makes me think again about Devin Bush.  Bush supposedly is very high character, leader type.  He likely would be a good influence on Reuben among other things.

 

 

“He’s always that type of guy that you always want to be around because he’s going to push you to be the best that you can be. He knows the expectations that need to be achieved, and he’s making sure everybody’s doing their job to achieve them,” says Michigan defensive end Rashan Gary

https://steelersdepot.com/2019/03/the-person-behind-the-player-potential-steelers-draft-target-lb-devin-bush/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter