FrFan Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 Democratic socialism = ruin of a once proud nation for decades to come (France) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 It amazes me the amount of millionaires and billionaires that post on this forum and the internet who can attest to how strong unregulated capitalism is. So many wealthy people. wake up and stop supporting things that are not in your best interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted August 18, 2018 Author Share Posted August 18, 2018 @BenningRoadSkin are to reading the thread? I think you and @FrFan should sit down and have beer or something 37 minutes ago, thebluefood said: Short answer: could mean a couple things. It just depends on what it takes to get there. I'll read some more before I ask more questions, but I'll say if this may need an actual revolution to pull off, I probably can't get behind it. Economies are fragil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 I find it mind boggling that some people on the left want to the government to have more power in the age of Trump. I still do support medicare for all. I am up for more education investments too but I think free college is kind of dumb when the K-12 system is a complete train wreck in a substantial portion of the country. Outside of healthcare and education, the role of any sensible government should be regulating the rules of our market. We don't have to go to the extreme end of the Republican dream of unchecked capitalism. Private ownership is great and we should ensure as many people as possible have the means of pursuing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 3 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said: It amazes me the amount of millionaires and billionaires that post on this forum and the internet who can attest to how strong unregulated capitalism is. So many wealthy people. Wake up and stop supporting things that are not in your best interest. Socialism isn’t in your best interest. Wake up and stop supporting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 3 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said: wake up and stop supporting things that are not in your best interest. The bootlicker dynamic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Popeman38 said: Socialism isn’t in your best interest. It may be. You don't know how lazy he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 There's a difference between realizing that capitalism has run amok and needs checks and thinking socialism is the answer. Neither pure capitalism nor pure socialism works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 2 hours ago, bearrock said: There's a difference between realizing that capitalism has run amok and needs checks and thinking socialism is the answer. Neither pure capitalism nor pure socialism works. This is the correct answer. Capitalism and socialism are just dumb labels (unless you're talking about true socialism which I don't think a lot of people actually mean when they say "socialism" nowadays). Almost every developed nation on the planet is capitalist and socialist at the same time. There are times when it's quite beneficial for citizens to give money to the government and have them use that money to provide services like military protection, schools, and roads. The idea that there is this socialism boogeyman out there is very often used to manipulate people into voting against their own self-interests.... like when it come to healthcare for example. edit: I also find it interesting that the argument from both sides of the debate is essentially the same... Socialism sucks. Poor people take advantage of the system. Capitalism sucks. Rich people take advantage of the system. How about this? A certain percentage of human beings, regardless of their income level, are going to try to take advantage of the system.You try to make decisions with the goal of doing the greatest good and then when you see how people are exploiting it, try to close the loopholes that are allowing that to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted August 19, 2018 Author Share Posted August 19, 2018 47 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said: This is the correct answer. Capitalism and socialism are just dumb labels (unless you're talking about true socialism which I don't think a lot of people actually mean when they say "socialism" nowadays). Almost every developed nation on the planet is capitalist and socialist at the same time. There are times when it's quite beneficial for citizens to give money to the government and have them use that money to provide services like military protection, schools, and roads. The idea that there is this socialism boogeyman out there is very often used to manipulate people into voting against their own self-interests.... like when it come to healthcare for example. edit: I also find it interesting that the argument from both sides of the debate is essentially the same... Socialism sucks. Poor people take advantage of the system. Capitalism sucks. Rich people take advantage of the system. How about this? A certain percentage of human beings, regardless of their income level, are going to try to take advantage of the system.You try to make decisions with the goal of doing the greatest good and then when you see how people are exploiting it, try to close the loopholes that are allowing that to happen. I agree with most of your post, but got to say that this is an extreme generalization of the people that don't want democratic socialism, especially since their are conservatives that don't want it, and I'm a liberal who started this thread. Does public services like the Military, Schools, and Roads really fall under the government taking control of an industry? I think that's a little different then taking over industries like Health Care or Oil Production. I'd be fine seeing more Tennessee Valley Authorities in the US, apparently its running a surplus right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 12th Commandment Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Renegade7 said: Does public services like the Military, Schools, and Roads really fall under the government taking control of an industry? I think that's a little different then taking over industries like Health Care or Oil Production. I'd be fine seeing more Tennessee Valley Authorities in the US, apparently its running a surplus right now. You only see it as different because it's been going on so long. Most roads used to be toll roads. Most military used to be privately owned and most kids didn't used to go to school. Granted you have to go back varying times in history to see a time before those varying things changed but they all have, and all of those changed in the last couple hundred years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 11 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said: It amazes me the amount of millionaires and billionaires that post on this forum and the internet who can attest to how strong unregulated capitalism is. So many wealthy people. wake up and stop supporting things that are not in your best interest. Socialism hasn’t proven nearly as effective at eradicating poverty as it has at eradicating democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 3 hours ago, Renegade7 said: Does public services like the Military, Schools, and Roads really fall under the government taking control of an industry? I think that's a little different then taking over industries like Health Care or Oil Production. But why, other than that this is the way we are currently doing things? Why would healthcare not be a public service? Profitability should not be a factor affecting the number of people we're able to make well or keep from dying. There's no logic to that. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the government taking over the healthcare industry is really on the table. What we're looking at is government funding of healthcare services provided by private companies. Now, there is one aspect of our healthcare system that is truly socialized medicine where the government both pays for and provides the services and that would be the VA. So, how do we reconcile this idea that socialized medicine is so bad but at the same time, it's the system we use to take care of our military veterans? Do we hate our veterans or is it actually that the idea of socialized medicine being this big evil boogeyman is just a bunch of bull**** being fed to us by people who want to keep lining their pockets? I'm voting for the latter. Now, I understand that there isn't a perfect solution with absolutely no problems. You can point to negative consequences that absolutely would occur if there were a major transition like that in our healthcare system. But, the way we're doing it now isn't the answer. On almost every measure, we should be doing a better job of taking care of our citizens while at the same time, our healthcare costs grossly exceed every other country on the planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 2 hours ago, Destino said: Socialism hasn’t proven nearly as effective at eradicating poverty as it has at eradicating democracy. It's not true. There are plenty of examples of both good and bad implementation / results. I could say the same for capitalism. Socialism, capitalism, progressivism, conservatism... none of them are inherently good or evil. Just like Joe Gibbs can coach with love and Bill Belichick can be an emotionless robot but they can both win multiple Super Bowls. There isn't one right way to do things. It's the people themselves and the way they work within their philosophy that determines success or failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 2 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said: Now, there is one aspect of our healthcare system that is truly socialized medicine where the government both pays for and provides the services and that would be the VA. So, how do we reconcile this idea that socialized medicine is so bad but at the same time, it's the system we use to take care of our military veterans? Do we hate our veterans or is it actually that the idea of socialized medicine being this big evil boogeyman is just a bunch of bull**** being fed to us by people who want to keep lining their pockets? I'm voting for the latter. It's funny the way people view the VA. I prefer to use the VA as the perfect example of why I DON'T want government run health care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 We need a two sentence definition of what we are talking about here. Greed is bad. Sharing is good. Is that the essence of what we are saying? 3 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said: It's not true. There are plenty of examples of both good and bad implementation / results. go on... trying to come up with a good lasting example of socialism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Quote Socialism sucks. Poor people take advantage of the system. Capitalism sucks. Rich people take advantage of the system. How about this? A certain percentage of human beings, regardless of their income level, are going to try to take advantage of the system.You try to make decisions with the goal of doing the greatest good and then when you see how people are exploiting it, try to close the loopholes that are allowing that to happen. Socialism sucks. Bureaucrats take advantage of the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Capitalism and free trade has been one of the greatest achievements of humanity. The world is categorically better from the wealth created through capitalism. Simultaneously, it is true that rules for our markets in the US are heavily tilted to favor a very small percentage of the wealthy population. Nothing about capitalism says that it should be be this way. Change the rules, not the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 9 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said: This is the correct answer. Capitalism and socialism are just dumb labels (unless you're talking about true socialism which I don't think a lot of people actually mean when they say "socialism" nowadays). Almost every developed nation on the planet is capitalist and socialist at the same time. There are times when it's quite beneficial for citizens to give money to the government and have them use that money to provide services like military protection, schools, and roads. Eh, i’m not sure. Here, elizabeth river tolls is a private company and they built a new tunnel and flyover ramp, changed over all the lighting to led, and made the interstate real nice. Now traffic moves a lot faster, and only the people who use the interstate have to pay for it (in the form of tolls). Also, the public school system is better than nothing, but it’s just OK. Anyone who has the resources to the their kid to a private school does it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 @BenningRoadSkin I see you are a fan of socialism, does that mean you support trumps tariffs? Tariffs are not a capitalist philosophy, they are socialist. Meant to prop up the worker in said country. Socialist countries have higher tarriffs than capitalist ones... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 18 minutes ago, No Excuses said: Capitalism and free trade has been one of the greatest achievements of humanity. The world is categorically better from the wealth created through capitalism. Could you please explain 1). The definitions you're using, to divide wealth into "caused by capitalism" and "not caused by capitalism"? 2). The moment at which you believe the "caused by capitalism" numbers began to accumulate? (Your answer to 1 might answer #2). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 50 minutes ago, Larry said: Could you please explain 1). The definitions you're using, to divide wealth into "caused by capitalism" and "not caused by capitalism"? 2). The moment at which you believe the "caused by capitalism" numbers began to accumulate? (Your answer to 1 might answer #2). Spread of wealth through free trade from capitalist countries to the developing world has led to severe reductions in global poverty, less war and major gains in health outcomes. Typing this from an uber but the data on this isn’t hard to find. I would be happy to link it when I’m on a computer. Most of it can be found in two books from Harvard Professor Steven Pinker: Enlightenment Now and The Better Angels of our Nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 7 minutes ago, No Excuses said: Spread of wealth through free trade from capitalist countries to the developing world has led to severe reductions in global poverty, less war and major gains in health outcomes. Typing this from an uber but the data on this isn’t hard to find. I would be happy to link it when I’m on a computer. Most of it can be found in two books from Harvard Professor Steven Pinker: Enlightenment Now and The Better Angels of our Nature. Observing that you did not come remotely close to answering either of my questions. Unless I'm correctly reading that you are dividing the world into "capitalist" and "poor", then asserting that all trade between the two is caused by the former. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: go on... trying to come up with a good lasting example of socialism. Our transportation infrastructure: highways, airports, etc The USPS NASA Social Security Agricultural subsidies Environmental regulations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 13 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said: Our transportation infrastructure: highways, airports, etc The USPS NASA Social Security Agricultural subsidies Environmental regulations No. Not cherry picking. Governments. Countries. Not a few programs in a capitalistic country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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