What is Democratic Socialism???

[Renegade7]

So I know you've seen it, heard it, few politicians are even running on it now.  But every time I see it come up, I never really hear it explained or differentiated from socialism itself.  I'm not claiming to complete understand what it is, but I want to start the conversation because:

 

1. we need to all be on the same page about this since some of us say we want it

2. not being on the same page about this is at minimum going to tear apart the democratic party, maybe even country itself 

 

So I'm going to post some stuff that looks to me like a good start, and there's a poll at the top for us to decide if this is what they want for our country (it's private, we don't need that kinda drama).  From what I can tell, this is familiar to the absolute frustration with capitalism that gave birth to socialism itself, and honestly, sounds personal AF for what's supposed to be an economic system to help as many people as possible.  There are aspects of Social Democracy (basically saving capitalism from itself), that Democratic Socialsim wants, but they just want to go further.  It's not good enough, Capitalism in their eyes needs to go (if I'm wrong, please prove it, I want you to and need you to).  

 

From Wikipedia:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

 

Quote

Democratic socialism is a political philosophy that advocates political democracy alongside social ownership of the means of production^[1] with an emphasis on self-management and democratic management of economic institutions within a market socialist, participatory or decentralized planned economy.^[2] Democratic socialists hold that capitalism is inherently incompatible with what they hold to be the democratic values of liberty, equality and solidarity; and that these ideals can only be achieved through the realization of a socialist society. Democratic socialism can be supportive of either revolutionary or reformist politics as a means to establish socialism.^[3]

 

The term "democratic socialism" is sometimes used synonymously with "socialism", but the adjective "democratic" is sometimes used to distinguish democratic socialists from Marxist–Leninist-inspired socialism which is viewed as being non-democratic in practice.^[4][5]Democratic socialists oppose the Stalinist political system and Soviet economic model, rejecting the authoritarian form of governance and highly centralized command economy that took form in the Soviet Union in the early 20th century.^[6]

 

Democratic socialism is further distinguished from social democracy on the basis that democratic socialists are committed to systemic transformation of the economy from capitalism to socialism, whereas social democracy is supportive of reforms to capitalism.^[7] In contrast to social democrats, democratic socialists believe that reforms aimed at addressing social inequalities and state interventionsaimed at suppressing the economic contradictions of capitalism will only see them emerge elsewhere in a different guise. As socialists, democratic socialists believe that the systemic issues of capitalism can only be solved by replacing the capitalist system with a socialist system—i.e. by replacing private ownership with social ownership of the means of production.^[3][8]

 

This last line is what terrifies me about this approach, because it sounds like they want some of the same stuff as Social Democrats want (a lot of common sense ****) so its easy for people to get confused into thinking they want Democratic Socialism.  The clear difference is that many of the common sense stuff isn't good enough, they want to go further, and they are feeding off of people's anger against the 1% without explaining the fine print.  

 

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/8/1/17637028/bernie-sanders-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-cynthia-nixon-democratic-socialism-jacobin-dsa

 

Democratic socialism, explained by a democratic socialist
It’s not just New Deal liberalism.

 

Quote

As long as a handful of elite capitalists get to call the shots in the economy and society, the playing field will be tilted in their favor. They’ll always be the ones who come out on top.

 

Many observers see groups like DSA pushing for policies like Medicare-for-all and decide that we must actually be something like New Deal liberals who are simply confused about the meaning of socialism. That’s not true. Our goal is not to rein in the excesses of capitalism for a few decades at a time — we want to end our society’s subservience to the market.

 

 

And now for the part that makes me angry.  I went to the website of the largest Democratic Socialist organization in the country (also conicidentally the largest Socialist organization in the country) and you can tell even on their main page that they are totally beating around the bush on their long game:

 

https://www.dsausa.org/what_is_democratic_socialism

 

Quote

Democratic socialists believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically—to meet public needs, not to make profits for a few. To achieve a more just society, many structures of our government and economy must be radically transformed through greater economic and social democracy so that ordinary Americans can participate in the many decisions that affect our lives.

 

Democracy and socialism go hand in hand. All over the world, wherever the idea of democracy has taken root, the vision of socialism has taken root as well—everywhere but in the United States. Because of this, many false ideas about socialism have developed in the US.

 

Like, WTF is that supposed to mean?  I get pissed off seeing Facebook groups like Millennials for Revolution pushing the adage that millennials want socialism, I've said repeatedly that we want our fair share, NOT a piece of everyone's pie.  This is socialism, they know its socialism, and they are taking over the progressive half of the democratic party through misinformation and feeding off of my generations emotions on what's happening to them and the country.

 

Like I said, I really want to make sure I understand what this is, so if there can be the type of conversation that I know we are capable of, we should all be able to come out of it clearly saying whether we do or do not support this.  I right now, based on what I understand the end goal is, do NOT support this.

[PleaseBlitz]

It is an attempt to move to Overton Window to the left as a counterweight to trickle down economics, which is equally stupid. 

[The 12th Commandment]

Democratic Socialism, as it's spoken about lately (as the right wing " " pejoritive de jour), is having your democratically elected representatives decide how much socialism we get into our capitalism.  Kinda like those old Reese's commercials.  You got your public schools and public highways in my free market! 

 

That we mix them is no secret to anyone who took 6th grade civics and paid attention.  To the Hannity's of the world it's become tantamount to mainlining left over Soviet nuclear waste.

 

That Overton Window is certainly being used racially.  Very sad.

[Popeman38]

Politicians and political parties prey on stupid. Look at the Vox article on Elizabeth Warren saving capitalism. The second paragraph describes socialism. Anyone who suggests that public ownership of the economy is the most efficient form of government has never actually studied history.

 

And to prove my point, look at the White House...

[Springfield]

Can I take my vote back?

 

I don’t thing that social ownership is the way, but **** if unchecked capitalism isn’t broken as ****.  What we need are more goddamn regulations so that corporate personhood doesn’t totally **** over our society.

[Bozo the kKklown]

Capitalism is destroying America.

[The 12th Commandment]

2 minutes ago, Springfield said:

Can I take my vote back?

 

I don’t thing that social ownership is the way, but **** if unchecked capitalism isn’t broken as ****.  What we need are more goddamn regulations so that corporate personhood doesn’t totally **** over our society.

Best described as Democratic Fascism no doubt.

[Bozo the kKklown]

 

I am identifying more as socialist but in reality a mixture of capitalism and capitalism  socialism is better for the people.

 

This current crap is not helping the world.

 

 

[PleaseBlitz]

7 minutes ago, Popeman38 said:

Politicians and political parties prey on stupid. Look at the Vox article on Elizabeth Warren saving capitalism. The second paragraph describes socialism. Anyone who suggests that public ownership of the economy is the most efficient form of government has never actually studied history.

 

And to prove my point, look at the White House...

 

I’ll note that one political party is screaming to the hills that democratic socialism is THE BIG NEW THING because one (1) person won one (1) house seat in Brooklyn.  There are 435 house seats. 

[Renegade7]

10 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

I am identifying more as socialist but in reality a mixture of capitalism and capitalism is better for the people.

 

This current crap is not helping the world.

I'm glad you showed up and I agree with you.  The concept of Social Democracy makes more sense, the amount of change that can come from campaign finance cannot be understated and what I want the country to be talking about instead of this trojan horse.

 

This discussion with my Trump friend lead to the realization that the countries in Europe so many idolize are running mixed economies, not socialism.

15 minutes ago, Springfield said:

Can I take my vote back?

 

I don’t thing that social ownership is the way, but **** if unchecked capitalism isn’t broken as ****.  What we need are more goddamn regulations so that corporate personhood doesn’t totally **** over our society.

We've known this for well over a century in this country, stuff like "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair was not a joke.  I just can't get down with people saying that capitalism is unfixable, that's scary AF when you really think about it.

[Going Commando]

10 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

I am identifying more as socialist but in reality a mixture of capitalism and capitalism is better for the people.

 

This current crap is not helping the world.

 

 

 

Capitalism is good at rapidly driving innovation while chewing up people in the process.

 

It's kind of a race to create the technologies needed to mollify the people enough to stay ahead of the resentment that comes from profound inequality and exploitation.

Democratic Socialism is the reason that Western and Northern Europeans live significantly better lives than we do and I would give anything to see Americans live like the Danish.  Those places are Utopias compared to what we've got here.  They have dusted us in quality of life and they're also going to be far more competitive than we are on a per capita basis.  They already are.

[Going Commando]

22 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Capitalism is destroying America.

 

The death of authentic patriotism and willingness to sacrifice for society + increasing population mobility/ubranization and the breakdown of the physical community + and the secularization of America and the abandonment of church teachings have led to a period of unchecked capitalism and reckless consumption and greed that are destroying our society.  We've backslid.  We've got Republicans pushing a ****ing 19th century vision of America, succeeding in rolling this country back to pre-New Deal pre Teddy Roosevelt norms.  They've fully embraced Robber Baron Crony Capitalism because it's nothing to sell this country out for petty personal gain now.

[Renegade7]

42 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Capitalism is good at rapidly driving innovation while chewing up people in the process.

 

It's kind of a race to create the technologies needed to mollify the people enough to stay ahead of the resentment that comes from profound inequality and exploitation.

Democratic Socialism is the reason that Western and Northern Europeans live significantly better lives than we do and I would give anything to see Americans live like the Danish.  Those places are Utopias compared to what we've got here.  They have dusted us in quality of life and they're also going to be far more competitive than we are on a per capita basis.  They already are.

 

Brah, did you read the OP?  That's not Democratic Socialism, the end goal is getting rid of capitalism entirely, which Denmark is not doing and has no intent on doing.

 

https://www.newsweek.com/denmark-hits-back-fox-slamming-socialist-country-1073912

 

Quote

The explanation is unlikely to satisfy many Danes, including center-right Prime Minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen, who has insisted that his country should not be mislabeled as socialist.

 

"I know that some people in the U.S. associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism,” he said at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government in 2015. “Therefore, I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy.”

 

He added, “The Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security for its citizens, but it is also a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish.”

 

 

What they are doing in several of those countries is they have a significantly better welfare system or more direct involvement of the government in forcing capitalism to take better care of their employees (or just outright taking over aspects of an industry like health care).  Democratic Socialist want to get rid of capitalism, that's their goal, the middle ground is not good enough for them, that's the difference between them and Social Democrats.  Those countries are streered forward economically via capitalism, they are Mixed Economies.

 

This is the current list of official socialist countries:

 

Loas

Cuba

Vietnam

China

 

That's it.

[PleaseBlitz]

Ive been to Cuba. It’s economy is 75% black market (AKA capitalism). 

[Bozo the kKklown]

33 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Capitalism is good at rapidly driving innovation while chewing up people in the process.

 

It's kind of a race to create the technologies needed to mollify the people enough to stay ahead of the resentment that comes from profound inequality and exploitation.

Democratic Socialism is the reason that Western and Northern Europeans live significantly better lives than we do and I would give anything to see Americans live like the Danish.  Those places are Utopias compared to what we've got here.  They have dusted us in quality of life and they're also going to be far more competitive than we are on a per capita basis.  They already are.

It was laughable when racist Trump said why aren’t more Norwegians immigrating to the US. Why would they when they live much better than we do? That doesn’t mean those places are perfect, like you said, but we basically live like crap here. Our healthcare suck, schools suck, no upward mobility unless you join the military, the economy only works for the rich, and more and more people only have their bodies as value. Oh yeah, and the wealthy think it’s okay to take money from the less fortunate and blame them for not being wealth, along with our current kleptocratic policies. And don’t forget our old friend Raymond Cism which our current economic system loves to use to divide us.

 

I am not saying we are living in a hellscape, but eff outta here telling me we could have it worse. No, we could have it much better and it’s time we start forcing that.

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

I’ll note that one political party is screaming to the hills that democratic socialism is THE BIG NEW THING because one (1) person won one (1) house seat in Brooklyn.  There are 435 house seats. 

And the media is falling into the same damn trap that got us Trump.

 

"Want to see something crazy?  Look at this. LOOK AT THIS! Crazy right?"

[PleaseBlitz]

10 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

And the media is falling into the same damn trap that got us Trump.

 

"Want to see something crazy?  Look at this. LOOK AT THIS! Crazy right?"

 

Meantime. 

 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/democrats-primaries-candidates-demographics/

[Warhead36]

11 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Democratic Socialism is the reason that Western and Northern Europeans live significantly better lives than we do and I would give anything to see Americans live like the Danish.  Those places are Utopias compared to what we've got here.  They have dusted us in quality of life and they're also going to be far more competitive than we are on a per capita basis.  They already are.

I'm with you here, but the population is so much smaller in those nations and there are deep rooted cultural norms in America that would basically make it impossible for us to adopt the same philosophy. Same reason why we have guns.

[Popeman38]

By definition, Democratic Socialism has no free market - all production is owned by either society or a coop. So any profit is redristributed to either everyone or everyone in the coop. Does anyone REALLY think that form of government will work? What value does money have? What value does work have? Why would anyone better themselves if by doing nothing they can reap the same rewards as everyone else?

 

It looks REALLY good on paper. But then you factor human nature into the equation...

[thebluefood]

Socialism: an economic system in which private property has been abolished and the means of production and existence are held in common (though that can take on a variety of forms, like cooperative, democratically structured worker's councils) 

 

Democratic: implementing that system through parliamentary means vs. revolutionary means

 

The prior is more important than the latter if you want to classify someone as a DemSoc. If they're just offering universal healthcare and free university education, they're not a Socialist (they'd probably be Social Democrats, though).

 

I'd consider myself a syndicalist by nature but syndicalism is inherently democratic (if you want to find out more, here's a link: http://libcom.org/library/syndicalism-introduction). Any socialist worth their salt, including revolutionary minded socialists, are democratic socialists (which is one of the reasons why I'm weary of Marxist-Leninism and its dependence on a vanguard party of "professional revolutionaries") 

[TheGreatBuzz]

3 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I'm with you here, but the population is so much smaller in those nations and there are deep rooted cultural norms in America that would basically make it impossible for us to adopt the same philosophy. Same reason why we have guns.

I often wonder how much time people have actually spent in many of these nations that are supposedly superior to us in quality.  I haven't been everywhere but I am probably more traveled than 95% of the population.  Many of these places that seem so great aren't as sweet when you get past the post card scene.  For example, I was really surprised when I realized how prejudiced many Europeans are toward whatever sect they have decided they don't like.  And aside from mass transit, much of their infrastructure and living quarters pretty much suck compared to the US.  I'm not trying to sound overly patriotic or something but I haven't been to anywhere else I'd like to settle down outside of here.  And last time I counted, I've been to something like 30 different countries.

 

Now that isn't to say we don't have some seriously major issues here................

[Renegade7]

33 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I often wonder how much time people have actually spent in many of these nations that are supposedly superior to us in quality.  I haven't been everywhere but I am probably more traveled than 95% of the population.

 

I'd say that's what happens when you are separated from most of the world by two oceans and only share borders with two countries.  You're absolutely right, though, and our TV News is dominated by what occurs in our country, same with our history books.  Granted, we're one of the largest countries in the world so we have more then enough of our own news, but comparing CNN to BBC its obvious what I'm talking about.  I'd say closest you'd get to walking distance to a country that's similar to what some of what Western Europe is like is Canada, but their health care system isn't as similar to say the UK as some might think.

4 hours ago, Popeman38 said:

It looks REALLY good on paper. But then you factor human nature into the equation...

 

Typical excuse I see on this one is "no one is doing it because no one is doing it right".

 

[Renegade7]

@thebluefood  What do you mean by this? (from your link):

 

Quote

Syndicalists therefore advocate decentralised, federated unions that use direct action to get reforms under capitalism until they are strong enough to overthrow it.

 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

Sadly I think it’s taken on the meaning of anyone that wants a higher social net of responsibility from the government. 

 

Im fine with capitalism but capitalism that is unregulated without any protections for the people combined with a society that doesn’t help or empower its people gets us where we are now: A massively underpaid work force, a shrinking middle class, unhappiness and increased depression among the country’s citizens and an unprecedented wealth gap that continues to grow. 

 

-Universal basic income 

 

-Universal health care 

 

-A shift in structure of a typical work week and time off ability (for example, a 32hr standard full time work week. For every 4 people, you can now hire someone else. Less unemployment and more opportunity. This will likely become even more important as automation and tech begin to replace many jobs on a larger basis) 

 

just those first three would improve the quality of life in this country so much. Pay people more, take away the stress of healthcare and give them more time off removing the “work to death each week mindset” of the American worker Imagine how happy people could be.  

 

An empowered and well off society of people drives capitalism. Imagine how much more innovation and opportunity exists for this America when people are

free to focus on creating new tech, displaying their ideas etc because they might have a little extra money in their pocket or aren’t saving for those medical bills or can actually afford to take a day off work for a business meeting 

 

If you add in college tutoring reform and public school funding and you are creating a well educated and opportunistic society that will continue to support itself through capitalism. 

 

The people are both protected and empowered by the governemnt which is what I’ve always believed is the governments responsibility. 

[thebluefood]

10 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

@thebluefood  What do you mean by this? (from your link):

 

 

Well, what I believe the author meant could be reinterpreted as "creating a new society within the shell of the old." That could mean a full-on, armed social and political revolution like we saw in Paris in 1871, Moscow in 1917, Catalonia in 1936, or Derry in 1969 (more on that later). But ideally (and I think, despite the fiery discourse, this is what most socialists of all stripes want), that could mean the establishment of an alternative economic system in various places around a nation or continent that becomes so large and powerful that it does, indeed, overcome and replace capitalism. 

 

It's referred to as "dual power"

 

Quote

The anarchist conception envisions the steady creation of mechanisms of self-management separate from the state apparatus. This strategy aims to create a libertarian socialist economy and polity by means of incrementally establishing and then networking institutions of direct participatory democracy to contest the existing power structures of state-capitalism.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power_(leftist_theory)

 

It refers specifically to state-capitalism but its also applicable to our more liberal capitalist system in the U.S. We're seeing a bit of that now in Chapas, Mexico with the EZLN but we also have a bit of that here in the states with campaigns like Cooperative Jackson in Mississippi.

 

https://cooperationjackson.org/

 

Now, unfortunately, a peaceful transition to a worker run society that syndicalists and other socialists want is highly unlikely but that's not exclusive to socialism. Serfdom and the Divine Right of Kings in Europe and the Americas didn't give way to liberal capitalism and republicanism peacefully. Those, at least in part, through armed rebellions and full-scale revolution. The Spirit of '76 wasn't pacifistic by any means and 1848 is famous for its many revolutions across Europe. 

 

Short answer: could mean a couple things. It just depends on what it takes to get there.