is Trumpism helping or harming the position of Christianity in America?

[TheGreatBuzz]

3 minutes ago, Epochalypse said:

You're fine with what exactly?  Being grouped with people you vastly disagree with just because you share a common label or trait?  If that is what you mean, why would you be fine with that?

With describing a group as something when a vast majority match the label, even if it isn't every single one in that group.  It makes for easier conversations.  Example:  not EVERY single person whose ancestors came to America from Africa are black.  Yet when we say African Americans,  what do we generally mean?

 

6 minutes ago, Epochalypse said:

Also, the overwhelming majority of humans are hypocrites, Christians aren't any different in that respect.

True.  But not all of them try to come off as holier than thou.  Christians are by far the most hypocritical religious group I am aware of.

 

8 minutes ago, Epochalypse said:

My issue is that Christians should be humble enough to recognize when they are called on it and ask forgiveness.

That is a good issue to have.  Because they aren't. 

 

9 minutes ago, Epochalypse said:

You point out people will rush to defend their own while casting a wide net over others.  That's exactly what you just did.  In response to a post where I was specifically calling out false Christians.

What group do I belong to that I rushed to defend?  At this point I am pretty sure the only "group" I can be put in is "people called Buzz".

 

 

[Epochalypse]

1 minute ago, thegreaterbuzzette said:

Couldn't decide....

 

Jesus pic

 

Definitely not Jesus pic

Thank you for at least putting Jesus first.

1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

With describing a group as something when a vast majority match the label, even if it isn't every single one in that group.  It makes for easier conversations.  Example:  not EVERY single person whose ancestors came to America from Africa are black.  Yet when we say African Americans,  what do we generally mean?

 

True.  But not all of them try to come off as holier than thou.  Christians are by far the most hypocritical religious group I am aware of.

 

That is a good issue to have.  Because they aren't. 

 

What group do I belong to that I rushed to defend?  At this point I am pretty sure the only "group" I can be put in is "people called Buzz".

 

 

Wow.

 

I'll just let your post be my last exhibit.

 

Good luck with that calling out hypocrisy thing.

[Renegade7]

My girl goes to church every Sunday, its African, none of them are Trumpers.  I've never seen this issue in any black church really, this isnt an across the board Christianity issue.  327 million Americans, 70% identify as Christian while only 62 million people voted for Trump, which no one can say were all Evangelicals.  Are there hypocrites? Sure, but I have trouble with the idea either neither follows all the values or the ones that do are brain dead Trumpers.  Dems need to wake up and target Evangelicals kids for their votes instead of giving up because they can't get their parents money.

[thegreaterbuzzette]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

My girl goes to church every Sunday, its African, none of them are Trumpers.  I've never seen this issue in any black church really, this isnt an across the board Christianity issue.  327 million Americans, 70% identify as Christian while only 62 million people voted for Trump, which no one can say were all Evangelicals.  Are there hypocrites? Sure, but I have trouble with the idea either neither follows all the values or the ones that do are brain dead Trumpers.  Dems need to wake up and target Evangelicals kids for their votes instead of giving up because they can't get their parents money.

None? That's a pretty bold statement. There's got to be at least one "I thought he liked me, tho" voter that is scared he'll be busted. Probably the one screaming the loudest about hating him now.

[Renegade7]

Just now, thegreaterbuzzette said:

None? That's a pretty bold statement. There's got to be at least one "I thought he liked me, tho" voter that is scared he'll be busted. Probably the one screaming the loudest about hating him now.

Negative, it's a small church.

[thegreaterbuzzette]

3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Negative, it's a small church.

How small?

 

Like "my son is the valedictorian!".......since he's home schooled, small?

 

Because if so, that was a misleading arguement. Very Trump-Like tactic.

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Are there hypocrites? Sure

Note that I did say just being a hypocrite did not make them bad people.  There are a million things that "good Christians " do that make them hypocritical.  But many are still good people when judged on a wide scale.  My point was in responding to someone who said you can't be Christian and support this president (or something to that affect).  Really???  How about you can't be Christian and support a denomination that covers up ****ing little boys.  Or cheating on your spouse.  Or hating gays.  Or cheating on your taxes.  Or any one of a million other ways Christians show how hypocritical they are.  You can totally be Christian and support this President.  The majority of the followers are ones that say they believe one thing but do another.  Why stop now?

11 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I have trouble with the idea either neither follows all the values or the ones that do are brain dead Trumpers

I never said that.

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, thegreaterbuzzette said:

How small?

 

Like "my son is the valedictorian!".......since he's home schooled, small?

 

Because if so, that was a misleading arguement. Very Trump-Like tactic.

 

Like pretty much all the adults are first generation glad to even be here small.  I prefer churches that have trouble with their electronics or making sure the utilities work, a lot less " holy them thou" and more "how do we get through this".  This is Manassas, btw, not Sterling.

6 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Note that I did say just being a hypocrite did not make them bad people.  There are a million things that "good Christians " do that make them hypocritical.  But many are still good people when judged on a wide scale.  My point was in responding to someone who said you can't be Christian and support this president (or something to that affect).  Really???  How about you can't be Christian and support a denomination that covers up ****ing little boys.  Or cheating on your spouse.  Or hating gays.  Or cheating on your taxes.  Or any one of a million other ways Christians show how hypocritical they are.  You can totally be Christian and support this President.  The majority of the followers are ones that say they believe one thing but do another.  Why stop now?

 

If you show me in the Bible where it says any of that is okay, maybe, but that's not what's really happening here.  Most haven't read the whole thing and just use it to justify their own ignorance and intolerance. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Like pretty much all the adults are first generation glad to even be here small.  I prefer churches that have trouble with their electronics or making sure the utilities work, a lot less " holy them thou" and more "how do we get through this".  This is Manassas, btw, not Sterling.

 

If you show me in the Bible where it says any of that is okay, maybe, but that's not what's really happening here.  Most haven't read the whole thing and just use it to justify their own ignorance and intolerance. 

When you say "happening here" do you mean on ES?  Because I wasn't saying it was.  A reference was made to Christians that support trump as a whole.  There really aren't many trump supporters here.  And no clue if either one of them are Christians. 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2019 by TheGreatBuzz

[Renegade7]

12 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

I never said that.

 

It's not like I quoted you.

1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

When you say "happening here" do you mean on ES?  Because I wasn't saying it was.  A reference was made to Christians that support trump as a whole.  There really aren't many trump supporters here.  And no clue if either one of them are Christians. 

 

No, organized religion in general.

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

It's not like I quoted you.

No but you mentioned hypocrites so I assumed you were replying to me.  If not, my bad.

 

3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

No, organized religion in general.

Oh then I'd argue it is happening "here".  Whether it is adultry, stealing, bigotry, etc.  At least one thing Christianity says you shouldn't do is happening "here' in most cases.

[Renegade7]

11 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

No but you mentioned hypocrites so I assumed you were replying to me.  If not, my bad.

 

Ya, this isn't the first religious thread so I kinda just said what was in my mind again.  I saw what you said, then felt how I felt without clarifying, my bad.

 

Quote

Oh then I'd argue it is happening "here".  Whether it is adultry, stealing, bigotry, etc.  At least one thing Christianity says you shouldn't do is happening "here' in most cases.

 

I'd argue a lot of people don't follow Christian values because they dont know what they are.  And taking it word for word versus thinking about why its really in there is just as dangerous as claiming you know what's in there without reading it at all, imo.

 

In a country that doesn't emphasize critical thinking in education until maybe college, this won't change anytime soon.  Bae knows there's no way Moses wrote the first five books if the last one describes his death, I don't need to tell her that, which is one less thing I gotta worry about.

 

One of my coworkers is from Pakistan, him and his wife are Muslim, and he mentioned how even though he grew up in the states one day he wanted to go through the Quran and almost blew a gasket trying to figure out how to follow it word for word or if that was the right thing to do.  His dad told him to pump breaks and just try to be a good person, if you see something in there that helps you do that, good.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Renegade7

[TheGreatBuzz]

4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I'd argue a lot of people don't follow Christian values because they dont know what they are.  

I'm sorry but that's a cop out.  I'm not talking about someone going against ancient scripture from the old testament.  I'm talking about basic ****.  Adultry, stealing, "love thy neighbor", etc.  The last one is always the easiest to spot a phony.  Pre-marital sex is always an easy one.  Everyone does it, and there can be a theological debate as to if the bible condemns it or not.  But I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a church when asked if it is acceptable,  they respond with "**** yes, pound it!"  (Obvious exaggerating)

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

You know what you guys are? Anti-dentites!!

[Renegade7]

11 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I'm sorry but that's a cop out.  I'm not talking about someone going against ancient scripture from the old testament.  I'm talking about basic ****.  Adultry, stealing, "love thy neighbor", etc.  The last one is always the easiest to spot a phony.  Pre-marital sex is always an easy one.  Everyone does it, and there can be a theological debate as to if the bible condemns it or not.  But I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a church when asked if it is acceptable,  they respond with "**** yes, pound it!"  (Obvious exaggerating)

 

What are saying here, that people know enough but don't follow it anyway? 

 

The love they neighbor is a tough one for me because early Isrealites conquered their neighbor in order to get the holy land.  Jesus actually meant that. I'm more concerned about people trying to use what's in the Bible to justify their wickedness or justify Trumps actions then people not following word for word, a book from a completely different millennium and culture.

 

As for the banging thing, I'm still learning and trying to understand it, but find it interesting the part of 1 Chorintians chapter 7:5-9.  At least I found it funny and look forward to reading Songs of Solomon : )

[PeterMP]

If we define a hypocrite as somebody that has ever done something they think is bad, wrong, etc., then the word loses any real meaning because everybody is essentially a hypocrite.

 

If somebody says committing adultery is wrong and bad, and then commits adultery, I'm not sure that makes them a hypocrite.  They messed up and made a mistake.

 

I'm also not sure that makes them not a Christian.

 

Somebody that tells other people that adultery is wrong and bad and they shouldn't be doing it, but regularly commits adultery is a hypocrite and not really a Christian.

 

Somebody that says you should love your neighbor, but occasionally (but rarely) gets mad and even seeks revenge against their neighbor isn't really a hypocrite and I wouldn't really say not a Christian.  We all make mistakes.

 

Somebody that is regularly mean to their neighbor and vindictive towards their neighbor while preaching love your neighbor is a hypocrite and not really Christian.

 

Somebody that occasionally (but rarely) is attracted by Trump's (fake) toughness and stick to "them" (whoever the "them" is in that case) can be a Christian.  But after years of seeing his meanness, lies, vindictiveness, and self-centeredness and will still call themselves a Trump supporter isn't really Christian.

[twa]

Sounds judgmental. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

8 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

What are saying here, that people know enough but don't follow it anyway? 

Yes.

 

8 hours ago, PeterMP said:

Somebody that says you should love your neighbor, but occasionally (but rarely) gets mad and even seeks revenge against their neighbor isn't really a hypocrite and I wouldn't really say not a Christian.  We all make mistakes.

 

I'd argue there is no clear line.  And I bet you agree with that.  As for love thy neighbor, I don't take it in a literal sense as the person next door to you.  But even if you do, the people that have homosexuals next door would often end up being hypocrites.  NOTE:  I'm not saying all or even most Christians, just a large chunk.

 

As for adultry, I'd still call you a hypocrite IF you claim to be a good christian.  After all, Jesus said not to do it.  And my understanding is he's kind of a big deal.  We can run through a few other commandments also if you'd like.  Point being, religious people in general tend to not hold themselves to the standards they claim to believe in.

 

FOR CLARITY, I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS EVERY RELIGIOUS PERSON.

[@DCGoldPants]

Trump is the result of bad actors in that faith using that faith for their own personal wealth and goals. "But he gives us our judges" they say....... as they also know he's an adulterer, likely a pedophile, couldn't quote a bible verse to save his life, and privately mocks their beliefs. 

[No Excuses]

Trump probably hasn’t spent a single minute of his life praying or identifying as a Christian. He’s probably an apathetic atheist. I think he’s probably the least religious president this country has ever had, which makes his association and denigration of Christianity through association all that more interesting. 

[LD0506]

Yanno, for the longest time the cautionary adage was "Two things you never talk about- religion and politics". I'm actually kinda glad I've lived to see the time where that falls by the wayside. Nothing ever gets better by not talking about it. Evil festers in places without notice or discussion. Not the Big E forked tail evil, but the everyday selfish, greedy, fearful evils that ruins lives. So well done!

 

Religion has held itself up as the repository of morality since the dawn of time, and there are underlying psychological reasons for it, but now we are actually looking at the reality of it in the light of day and it ain't as pretty as the marketing claimed, is it?

 

But we still need to be able to have these conversations without triggering anyones anxieties about their beliefs. If nothing else it ought to encourage people to take a serious look at what they believe and why, and find the strength to openly admit it. IMO that applies to religion or politics or society or anything. If you "believe" because you feel that it is what others want you to do, or you do it to fit in or gain some advantage, then just maybe you need to take a closer look at it.

 

If religion is to survive in the future of mankind then it will be forced to see itself objectively and find some way to make its core dogma reality. If not?

 

[@DCGoldPants]

34 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

Trump probably hasn’t spent a single minute of his life praying or identifying as a Christian. He’s probably an apathetic atheist. I think he’s probably the least religious president this country has ever had, which makes his association and denigration of Christianity through association all that more interesting. 

 

You could put him a Church and ask him to recite his favorite passage and he'd fail.

 

You could put him in front of an NRA crowd and ask him to show everyone who to properly load and unload a gun and he'd fail.

 

 

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Yes.

 

I'd argue there is no clear line.  And I bet you agree with that.  As for love thy neighbor, I don't take it in a literal sense as the person next door to you.  But even if you do, the people that have homosexuals next door would often end up being hypocrites.  NOTE:  I'm not saying all or even most Christians, just a large chunk.

 

As for adultry, I'd still call you a hypocrite IF you claim to be a good christian.  After all, Jesus said not to do it.  And my understanding is he's kind of a big deal.  We can run through a few other commandments also if you'd like.  Point being, religious people in general tend to not hold themselves to the standards they claim to believe in.

 

FOR CLARITY, I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS EVERY RELIGIOUS PERSON.

 

First, Jesus says not just love your neighbor, but love your enemy.  So we need to get beyond really just talking about who is your neighbor because it is really irrelevant in Christianity.  Jesus (knowingly) calls us to do what is impossible for humans.

 

Jesus converted the sinful not by attacking them, but by being friendly with them, teaching them, and understanding them and allowing them to understand him.

 

In terms of people that would not listen to his message Jesus told his disciples:

 

"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet."

 

This idea of regularly attacking (attacking might be too aggressive of a word here, but whatever you want to call it) a group or community is not Biblical.  Much of the modern evangelical community does not practice evangelism in the nature/style that Jesus taught.

 

(If you're regularly protesting outside of a Planned Parenthood with pictures of aborted babies that doesn't seem to match what Jesus instructed in terms of dealing with the sin or evangelism).

 

Jesus has given us an impossible task.  There is no such thing a as perfect Christian.  I will generally agree that where to draw the line is difficult and really unknowable.  But if the only sin you've ever committed is adultery once, you're doing pretty good (and not to under sell the significance of adultery, but still if one case of adultery is your only flaw, I'd say you've done a great job as a Christian).

Edited July 11, 2019 by PeterMP

[@DCGoldPants]

8 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Jesus has given us an impossible task.  There is no such thing a as perfect Christian.

 

But you have Erick Erickson talking like he is one. 

[LD0506]

When the best evidence for letting religion die out is its own adherents, I have to think that someone is fighting a losing battle.............................