is Trumpism helping or harming the position of Christianity in America?

[Momma There Goes That Man]

1 hour ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

You could put him a Church and ask him to recite his favorite passage and he'd fail.

 

We did. He failed and blamed it on being personal. 

 

 

Then there was this:

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2019 by Momma There Goes That Man

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

Jesus has given us an impossible task.  There is no such thing a as perfect Christian.  I will generally agree that where to draw the line is difficult and really unknowable.  But if the only sin you've ever committed is adultery once, you're doing pretty good (and not to under sell the significance of adultery, but still if one case of adultery is your only flaw, I'd say you've done a great job as a Christian).

 

I really don't think we are that far apart on opinions.  Honestly look around and ask yourself are the majority of christians living a "good christian life"?  I don't think so.  I think we may also be vearing off topic.  My intention wasn't to nit pick each little sin.  My point was more of a christians don't actually do most of the things they claim to believe in.

[PeterMP]

7 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

I really don't think we are that far apart on opinions.  Honestly look around and ask yourself are the majority of christians living a "good christian life"?  I don't think so.  I think we may also be vearing off topic.  My intention wasn't to nit pick each little sin.  My point was more of a christians don't actually do most of the things they claim to believe in.

 

There is no doubt that Christianity is suffering a huge crisis right now, and I suspect it is going to get worse (and hopefully, at some time, it gets better).

 

And it really is on multiple fronts.  You have the evangelical community largely/heavily going all in on the culture wars (supporting somebody like Trump because of abortion and gay rights).  You have the rise of the prosperity gospel.  And you have the failure of the Catholic Church in terms of the pedophilia scandal/crisis.

 

The future of Christianity, right now, doesn't look good.

Edited July 11, 2019 by PeterMP

[Epochalypse]

46 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

When the best evidence for letting religion die out is its own adherents, I have to think that someone is fighting a losing battle.............................

You are confusing the tenets with the people who are failing to apply them.

 

The problem isn't Christianity's message of love, truth and service to others.

 

The problem is people saying they are Christians but don't love, speak or seek the truth, and serve only their own interests.

 

The other issue is that Christianity already tells us how this all ends here on Earth; it goes down in flames.  Which necessarily means Christians will fail to save the world.  But that was never the requirement.  The requirement was for Christians to do their best to follow inherently impossible demands and bring as many people with us to salvation before the world around us collapses.

[bearrock]

Christianity is suffering a crisis because people are trying to do everything but trying to do what the bible says and anybody with half a brain can smell the hypocrisy from a mile away.  Their argument will often fall back on a biblical principle as justification and when someone points out that you choose to disregard these other choice, inconvenient passages that would actually require you to change the way you live, they come up with some BS justification.

 

As an example, I read this fascinating (not really fascinating) passage the other day.  Judge not lest ye be judged.  A simple instruction that every Christian would do well to take to heart.  But that would require big segment of Christians to drop their favorite pastime, so this lovely author came up with this 

 

https://theblazingcenter.com/2017/11/judge-not.html

 

Quote

Notice the reason Jesus warns against judgment. The danger in passing judgment on someone is that we’ll have our own standard come back to haunt us, like the spirit of judgments past.

When I condemn someone’s behavior, whether it’s blatantly sinful or just different than my own, I almost NEVER use the proper standard of judgment. I pass judgment according to my own strengths and opinions.

....

How Should We Then Judge?

 

It seems to me that there is a middle ground between Westboro Baptist judgment and Unitarian “we are the world” acceptance.

That middle ground is compassionate judgment.

When I see someone sinning, I can acknowledge that it’s sin in need of repentance, but I can also say, “Tell me more.”

 

Excuse me while I go look for my eyes that have rolled right out of my sockets. (Yes, Jesus said those who have not committed adultery cast the first stone, not those who haven't sinned.  Actually that might be wrong, but it seems like Christians don't read the bible so who cares)

 

Anyone who takes Christianity with an ounce of sincerity can't possible seek to apply biblical principles to real world policies beyond their own personal life (not just because it would be a gross misuse of the purpose of the bible).  Use of biblical principles in law and policy has many root reasons, most (none?) of which has anything to do with trying to help/coerce/force people to lead a more "biblical" life.  

 

Jesus gave a fairly condensed message with an ultimate purpose of leading everyone to admit that they are fundamentally flawed (can also read "screwed") beings and need the grace of God to be saved.  Then people spent 2000 years nitpicking every passage in the bible to try to justify why they are a little better than the assholes down the street and how their life is a little more worthy of God's grace (the answers is no on both fronts).

 

which leads to my favorite meme (the safe version anyway)

 

 

 

@Epochalypse I get your sincerity, I really do.  I'm a believer whose opinion of those who misuse faith for their own nefarious purposes ranks below my opinion of pretty much everyone else on the planet.  I don't think anyone has a problem with Jesus' message as corrupt or evil (people may not believe, but they'd probably say, whatever floats your boat as long as you don't bother me with it).  But that's not what Christianity is to people.  To many Christianity represents the 2000+ years of abuse of power, greed, and corruption by individuals and organizations that sought to force their will and crimes on the masses by claiming some special insight to divine power from above.  Unfortunately, I don't think it's all that unfair.

[PleaseBlitz]

Christianity has made the same mistake that so many other businesses have (and make no mistake, religion is a business).  They've focused on short term return on investment and neglected their long-term market position.  They leveraged their current power to elect Trump, which gives them a tremendous amount of influence in the short term.  In doing that, they announced to the world that their reason for existence (providing their followers with a set of values to live by) doesn't matter anymore.  Therefore they are going to rapidly lose market share and therefore their influence is going to disappear in the long-term.    

[Epochalypse]

@bearrock I agree which is why I made that post yesterday.

 

But by not speaking up and pointing out what separates actual Christian beliefs from people claiming to be Christians only allows the hypocrisy to continue and drives more people away from actual Christian beliefs which would, if adhered to, correct the problem.

 

Also allowing comments from posters that declare that they are fully justifiied when they lump people using labels, tying those trying to correct the issue with people causing the issue, does nothing but further divide the country and prevent the type of discourse that could work towards correcting the issue.

[Epochalypse]

7 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Christianity has made the same mistake that so many other businesses have (and make no mistake, religion is a business).  They've focused on short term return on investment and neglected their long-term market position.  They leveraged their current power to elect Trump, which gives them a tremendous amount of influence in the short term.  In doing that, they announced to the world that their reason for existence (providing their followers with a set of values to live by) doesn't matter anymore.  Therefore they are going to rapidly lose market share and therefore their influence is going to disappear in the long-term.    

Christianity didn't make the mistake.

 

Fake Christians are using Christianity to advance their selfish ends.  Christianity as a faith suffers for it, and frankly since the perpetrators were fake Christians in the first place, the perpetrators don't really have a problem with that long term either.

 

The only ones who care are people who see what is happening to their message of love, truth and service.

[PleaseBlitz]

11 minutes ago, Epochalypse said:

Christianity didn't make the mistake.

 

Fake Christians are using Christianity to advance their selfish ends.  Christianity as a faith suffers for it, and frankly since the perpetrators were fake Christians in the first place, the perpetrators don't really have a problem with that long term either.

 

The only ones who care are people who see what is happening to their message of love, truth and service.

 

Yep, I wasn't clear. 

 

I meant Christianity as the collection of people calling themselves Christian.  Christianity the group, not the religion.  Whether people consider them fake or not doesn't really matter.  

[bearrock]

15 minutes ago, Epochalypse said:

@bearrock I agree which is why I made that post yesterday.

 

But by not speaking up and pointing out what separates actual Christian beliefs from people claiming to be Christians only allows the hypocrisy to continue and drives more people away from actual Christian beliefs which would, if adhered to, correct the problem.

 

Also allowing comments from posters that declare that they are fully justifiied when they lump people using labels, tying those trying to correct the issue with people causing the issue, does nothing but further divide the country and prevent the type of discourse that could work towards correcting the issue.

 

I think you and I largely hope for the same goals.  I do think, however, that your efforts are better spent working to encourage change of behavior from Christians and trying to live a life that would evidence that not all Christians behave like psychopathic hypocrites.  Telling people who've seen the mass hypocrisy up close and personal that they should ignore what they saw and experienced is unlikely to be very effective.  If enough people and organizations lead a good life, eventually it'll outweigh (hopefully) the hypocrites.  But until then, the one's that should be called out are the so-called Christians who try their hardest to besmirch the gospel, not the people who look at the behavior and think "they are so messed up".  

[mcsluggo]

14 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I'm sorry but that's a cop out.  I'm not talking about someone going against ancient scripture from the old testament.  I'm talking about basic ****.  Adultry, stealing, "love thy neighbor", etc.  The last one is always the easiest to spot a phony.  Pre-marital sex is always an easy one.  Everyone does it, and there can be a theological debate as to if the bible condemns it or not.  But I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a church when asked if it is acceptable,  they respond with "**** yes, pound it!"  (Obvious exaggerating)

 

those are fairly standard moral guidelines that almost everyone pays lip service to adhering to... but you are perfectly happy saying Christians are THE hypocrites if they fail to meet the grade... but everyone else is off the hook.   Overall.. the position you have taken in the last page or so is pretty clearly (and easy to define) bigotry, and would obviously look and sound (and be perceived) very harshly if it was applied to almost any OTHER grouping in the country (muslims, or the blacks, or the queers or the ...whichevers)  

 

.... it is the sort of position that gives the kernel of truth inside the incredibly irritating "we christians are the persecuted ones..." that allows that crap to continue.   If someone only listened to you, then they would have to conclude that Christians really ARE the poor persecuted downtrodden of America 

Edited July 11, 2019 by mcsluggo

[mcsluggo]

2 hours ago, LD0506 said:

When the best evidence for letting religion die out is its own adherents, I have to think that someone is fighting a losing battle.............................

 

you are really failing to grasp (or at least adhere to...)  the difference between  "I dislike what that person did... "  vesus   "  I dislike everyone from that group because of what some person from that group did ..."  

 

 

the second one is the clear and obvious definition of racism when it is applied on race grounds, or misogyny when applied on gender grounds, ,or jingoism (often to the point of racism) when applied to country of origin.....      it should be OBVIOUS that it is really problematic to apply it to religion as well.  Even when it is applied to the majority religion (where most of the power in the country rests) 

[Epochalypse]

27 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

I think you and I largely hope for the same goals.  I do think, however, that your efforts are better spent working to encourage change of behavior from Christians and trying to live a life that would evidence that not all Christians behave like psychopathic hypocrites.  Telling people who've seen the mass hypocrisy up close and personal that they should ignore what they saw and experienced is unlikely to be very effective.  If enough people and organizations lead a good life, eventually it'll outweigh (hopefully) the hypocrites.  But until then, the one's that should be called out are the so-called Christians who try their hardest to besmirch the gospel, not the people who look at the behavior and think "they are so messed up".  

I'm not sure how you came to the idea that I was telling people to ignore Christian hypocrisy based on my posts, but I'll try to clear up that right now.

 

I'm pleading for people to call out Christian hypocrites by pointing out what they are doing is not Christian.  It is racism, elitism, etc using Christianity as its cover.

 

My goal is for people to separate Christianity as a system of faith from these hateful beliefs and attack the hateful beliefs themselves.

 

I want people to confront these folks with "What you are saying isn't Christian and it's not Christian because Christianity says this..."

 

What I want to stop happening is people confronting them with "Typical Christian..."

[bearrock]

14 minutes ago, Epochalypse said:

I'm not sure how you came to the idea that I was telling people to ignore Christian hypocrisy based on my posts, but I'll try to clear up that right now.

 

I'm pleading for people to call out Christian hypocrites by pointing out what they are doing is not Christian.  It is racism, elitism, etc using Christianity as its cover.

 

My goal is for people to separate Christianity as a system of faith from these hateful beliefs and attack the hateful beliefs themselves.

 

I want people to confront these folks with "What you are saying isn't Christian and it's not Christian because Christianity says this..."

 

What I want to stop happening is people confronting them with "Typical Christian..."

 

Non-Christians don't care enough to confront hypocritical Christians (and I'm not sure why they should).  Christian hypocrisy's response is likely to degenerate into something along the lines of "well, that's because you don't really understand the scripture, which if you did, you would concede that you're wrong and I'm right".   Confronting hypocritical Christians and telling them to stop twisting the Word of God is a job for other Christians.  At some point along the last 2000 years, we've lost the right to say that "yeah, but those crazy kooks are such a small segment of Christians".  

 

EDIT: Just wanted to clarify, when I said ignore in my previous post, I meant in the context of ignore what they saw and experienced in forming their opinion about Christians and Christianity at large.  I know you weren't saying people should ignore hypocrisy of Christians and not confront it.

Edited July 11, 2019 by bearrock

[TheGreatBuzz]

3 hours ago, Epochalypse said:

The problem isn't Christianity's message of love, truth and service to others.

 

This can't be said enough.  Today, as a devote atheist, I still like a lot of the lessons religion can teach.  I like to compare it to the story of the boy that cried wolf.  Do I think there really was a boy that did what the story tells?  No.  But is still teaches a very valuable lesson.  Do I think there was a man named Jesus who is the son of god?  No.  But there are still a lot of good lessons in hearing the stories.  I just believe them to be fictional stories.

 

2 hours ago, mcsluggo said:

.... it is the sort of position that gives the kernel of truth inside the incredibly irritating "we christians are the persecuted ones..." that allows that crap to continue.   If someone only listened to you, then they would have to conclude that Christians really ARE the poor persecuted downtrodden of America 

 

Well then I'd say the comparison of them to how people who still identify as Republicans are treated was spot on.  No one has a problem throwing shade on that entire group.

[bearrock]

3 hours ago, mcsluggo said:

 

those are fairly standard moral guidelines that almost everyone pays lip service to adhering to... but you are perfectly happy saying Christians are THE hypocrites if they fail to meet the grade... but everyone else is off the hook.   Overall.. the position you have taken in the last page or so is pretty clearly (and easy to define) bigotry, and would obviously look and sound (and be perceived) very harshly if it was applied to almost any OTHER grouping in the country (muslims, or the blacks, or the queers or the ...whichevers)  

 

.... it is the sort of position that gives the kernel of truth inside the incredibly irritating "we christians are the persecuted ones..." that allows that crap to continue.   If someone only listened to you, then they would have to conclude that Christians really ARE the poor persecuted downtrodden of America 

 

You have to take into consideration that many Christians invite this "persecution".  The conclusion of Christians, regardless of the particular details of their respective tenets of faith, is that Christians are saved and are gonna live happily ever after in La La Land while the rest of the unbelieving masses are screwed for all eternity.  That's fine.  That's the belief, no doubt about it.  But it's certainly not because Christians are any better than anyone else.  That's where the break starts to happen.  Instead of admitting that they haven't done a single thing to deserve salvation anymore than anyone else beyond having the right belief, many go even a step further and start to proclaim that society should codify their view of Christian beliefs and values into law and force everyone else to adhere to supposed values of your faith (and let's not pretend this is a recent invention either). 

 

So from the outside looking in, it looks a lot like "I'm saved and holy and you're screwed and destined for hell" while doing the same BS that all human beings are susceptible to.  If Christians had the basic integrity to admit that yeah, I'm just as messed up as you are, but I'm saved by grace alone, that would go a long way towards helping the rest of society's opinion of them.  

[AsburySkinsFan]

21 hours ago, LD0506 said:

When the best evidence for letting religion die out is its own adherents, I have to think that someone is fighting a losing battle.............................

No no, see those are just bad examples of the religion. See, me and the hidden ones practice the authentic Christianity. You'll never see us because the group is a fiction that Christians tell themselves to make themselves feel better when confronted with the reality that it's the Evangelicals who put a troll like Trump in power and it's them that are keeping him there. So as "authentic" Christian sits in her pew surrounded by active and passive Trump supporters she has to tell her that she's different, that there is a group like her who "get it right" where all of these others fail. It's this pursuit for the authentic Christianity that has caused EVERY split in the church. I was once that person, thinking god was speaking to me to voice the purity of His will. And what I found was that no one cares, and those that do spend most of their time debating about how their version is the right one, that true strain of authenticity that draws a line straight to Jesus' heart. Meanwhile a guy in Tennessee stands behind a pulpit preaching that cops should be arresting and killing homosexuals because that's what the Bible teaches and he's the voice of authenticity with the line to the will of God! In the end it's nothing more than a Rorschach Blot, liberals, moderates, conservatives all staring into the face of Jesus and praising his beauty without ever realizing the portrait before them is a mirror.

[Bozo the kKklown]

Miriam Adelson wants Book of Trump added to the Bible:

 

https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/miriam-adelson-a-time-of-miracles-1705255/

[No Excuses]

42 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Miriam Adelson wants Book of Trump added to the Bible:

 

https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/miriam-adelson-a-time-of-miracles-1705255/

 

Sure why not? It would be as factual and useful as the other ones. 

[Llevron]

 

I welcome it with open arms! I couldn't think of a more appropriate addition to the Bible than the book of Trump in all gold letters. 

[Larry]

And every verse is 140 characters or less. 

 

And contradicts the previous verses. 

[AsburySkinsFan]

9 minutes ago, Larry said:

And every verse is 140 characters or less. 

 

And contradicts the previous verses. 

You mean like God's ways don't change....except for eating shrimp....and stoning disobedient children.

God said it...I believe it...that settles it.

[bearrock]

2 hours ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

 In the end it's nothing more than a Rorschach Blot, liberals, moderates, conservatives all staring into the face of Jesus and praising his beauty without ever realizing the portrait before them is a mirror.

 

Well no wonder my Jesus was the best looking one!

[Renegade7]

2 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Miriam Adelson wants Book of Trump added to the Bible:

 

https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/miriam-adelson-a-time-of-miracles-1705255/

 

The last book already says not to change any of the previous ones, which we failed at miserably. How many different bibles are there now anyway?  I know some have more books then others, not even counting the Apocrypha.  You can argue Trump already has a book, its the last one.

[AsburySkinsFan]

46 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

Well no wonder my Jesus was the best looking one!

Exactly....and yes I get the joke, but still.....exactly.

25 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

The last book already says not to change any of the previous ones, which we failed at miserably. How many different bibles are there now anyway?  I know some have more books then others, not even counting the Apocrypha.  You can argue Trump already has a book, its the last one.

Well actually, that same type of verse shows up in Deuteronomy and that's like in the first five books......sooooooo

 

Deuteronomy 4:2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

 

But to that verse in Revelation, you do know that it was written for that particular apocalyptic work alone right? Because it wasn't like John was sitting on the Isle of Patmos with a Bible in his hands and thought, "Now, I've got time to write that final chapter." The individual works weren't compiled until 397AD. So that passage in Revelation couldn't have meant the entire canon of scripture, because when it was written it wasn't even considered scripture. Unless of course you're going to argue that the scholars in 397AD added that passage, in which case is it really ordained scripture since it's not part of the original text?

Yeah, don't **** with me. LOL

Edited July 12, 2019 by AsburySkinsFan