Let's All Get Behind Alex Smith! Or Not!! (M.E.T.) NO kirk talk---that goes in ATN forum

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I think one big difference in these arguments is that if SIP’s opinion/projection is off the mark, he’ll own it.  

 

I’m absolutely certain that the more optimistic crowd will go into hiding and/or have a boatload of excuses when it doesnt pan out how they expect it to.

 

We shall see.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

@Skinsinparadise I really think you are missing the boat on this one. @Temper11 brought up that Alex will let it rip when he needs to. You said "not according to football outsiders and multiple other sources."

 

I've elaborated to death about what I think about Alex Smith. You got an encyclopedia worth of material from me as to what I think about him including putting up clips about Alex.  I talked about Alex weeks before we traded for him. 

 

Yeah from what I've watched coupled with everything I've read and heard about Alex he's not a let it rip dude.  Ditto a let it rip guy when he needs to be.  Geez, Football Outsiders have a category that they specifically call "the Alex" named specifically for Alex Smith specifically for throwing short of the chains on third and long. 

 

The fact that my enthusiasm for the D line isn't at the same height as their PFF scores has nothing to do with squat as to Alex conservativism. 

 

Having said that, Alex has other strengths and his conservatism is among them.  He doesn't make mistakes and force the ball when he doesn't need to.  He is a master of the RPO and RO.  I like Alex, i think he's a good QB.  Do you notice me among people who took shots at him yesterday or today?  Nope.  

 

We got plenty of people on the board who actually think that Alex is a game manager at best and is a "meh" QB.   Why don't people go after the people who actually don't think Alex is a good QB?   Versus the he's "good" crowd.    You got some real targets out there if you want some serious debates.

 

 

1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

@Skinsinparadise

 

To which I brought to the table there have been countless pressure stats from 2017, PFF's projections, narratives from the media that believe this could be an upper echelon Front 7. "Good" to me means 12-16 in the league maybe? I think that is a fairly sizable difference.

 

 

Pressure isn't the ONLY measure of a front 7 or D line.  You got run defense.  You got pass defense there are other things in the soup.  And PFF isn't the definitive answer for squat and as I pointed out I could use PFF to slam a bunch of your points you've made this off season pretty easily -- so I don't think you or I want to live and die with PFF.  

 

But again "good" isn't a criticism.  I find having a debate about levels of enthusiasm boring.  Again if you want a real debate -- go take on the people who think the defense actually is bad instead of those who think its good.  The defense is bad group are out there, I've seen the posts.   Take them on and enjoy.  I might even help you. 

 

1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

It wasn't about good vs great though. It was how you were disproving Temper on his take using football outsiders take and other sources. Yet don't seem to buy in to a lot of the hype on the front 7, also generated by PFF and other said sources. So I was genuinely curious, when is it that you decide to buy into narratives being pushed around (in the case of Smith) versus "needing to see" in the case of the Front 7.

 

This point brings it home for me.   I was hyped about Derrius Guice for example way before it became fashionable to do so.  Not because I read something cool about him -- it was from watching LSU games.  The hype stuff that you read and hear is the gravy it isn't the driving force for me.  If I haven't watched a player, I'll say so when commenting -- like I do about Tim Settle for example.  But I instantly discount my opinion when its based on pure narrative. 

 

1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

It wasn't a shot, I'm not coming at you lol. Just a question man.

 

I answered this part above.  And, I admit I am a little frustrated on this point.  This isn't the first time where from my point of view, where I try to answer the question from you and do it as nicely as I could regardless of the tone of your question and I typically answer in exhaustive detail.  I even typically add why I came to said conclusion.  Then, you more or less brush off my response and instantly move on with a new angle. 

 

1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

But people have different takes, and that generates back and forth and some disagreement. This whole "coming at me, not going to change my mind, only impressed with people who can show you," comes off a bit holier than thou. Just saying.

 

Dude, if you are going to keep at me with the same stuff -- and have a beef with my responses whether based on content or tone (as I told you a week or so ago) then please stop bringing me into these conversations either directly or where you are referring to me. 

 

I've elaborated to death about the QB, the D line, all the subjects.  To me there isn't much meat (in my book) in these debates where I find its worth going back to the same well.   My point back to you (which you talk about me coming off holier than thou) is there are people on said topics who throw stuff at me that make me think where I don't mind having a rerun on the same subject.   

 

On said topics, I think I am pretty familiar with your thinking -- and how you present your arguments.  I don't see anything fresh in it from my perspective because I've done that dance with the logic already.  And I didn't mind it initially otherwise i wouldn't have engaged.  But I see nothing fresh in any of it.  I am bored with my own responses to it as well.    Hence, that's why I told you over a week ago, am bored in rehashing the same things in the same way.    To you I come off holier than thou -- that's cool, I can see that.  Sorry.  To me you can come off at times more like playing "gotcha" than actually discussing football.   

[HardcoreZorn]

Lol alright then my takes don't have any meat in them and are boring. Sorry for wasting your time. 

 

@BatteredFanSyndrome if we stink like eggs this year I'll be at the front of the line saying I was wrong and let's clean house. Not here to make excuses.

 

I haven't predicted good things the past few years. I said 8-8 9-7 at best. I just happened to join at a time where I think the talent base has really started to come together. We shall see...

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Just now, HardcoreZorn said:

 

@BatteredFanSyndrome if we stink like eggs this year I'll be at the front of the line saying I was wrong and let's clean house. Not here to make excuses.

 

I haven't predicted good things the past few years. I said 8-8 9-7 at best. I just happened to join at a time where I think the talent base has really started to come together. We shall see...

 

Gotcha.  I promise you that many others that share your same point of view will scatter like roaches when the lights come on. 

[wit33]

Alex has never shown the ability to remain calm in the pocket if play doesn’t go as designed ... or manipulate the pocket while still keeping eyes down field. This kind of QB play is reserved for the truly elite. 

 

It seems many are looking for Alex to be better at things Kirk struggled with, but truth is, both are average to above average QBs overall. Each paired with a good scheme will be successful, as both can process information. 

 

Some believe intangibles can make a significant difference and others not as much—How we define and identify these intangibles is up to each individual and most likely their personal experiences in life. I’m hopeful Alex will be a better fit for this group (players, coaches and FO) at roughly 4-5% less on the cap. 

 

[Commander Wolffe]

On a positive note..Alex did hit Richardson a few times which was good to see. If we can get Richardson for a few chunks..crowder/reed move the chains..and doctson in the red zone. Considering crowder/reed didn't play and v.davis dropped one and looked to have displayed two more it's not as bad as it looked at first glance.

[Warhead36]

It looked like we spent the week just practicing the run game and wanting to see what Peterson could give us. Passing game had no rhyme or reason to it whatsoever.

[Commander Wolffe]

13 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

It looked like we spent the week just practicing the run game and wanting to see what Peterson could give us. Passing game had no rhyme or reason to it whatsoever.

 

I liked it.. ran AP against the Broncos first team..to see what we got. He showed enough to in my opinion be the starter..and at the very least throughout the course of the season if he can give us..short yardage..goal line/red zone and a few additional series I'm more than good. 

 

I went to the game last night..and previously rb...just D3..so not on that level...but from my perspective the vision..and juice( quickness and explosion) was on another level then what we have seen this year. I dont care about top speed..hes certainly fast enough to still break a few big ones.. but more importantly he's definitely good enough to gash you for several 15-20 runs a game.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

It looked like we spent the week just practicing the run game and wanting to see what Peterson could give us. Passing game had no rhyme or reason to it whatsoever.

 

My main hope is this is 2012 all over again but toned down some. If I recall RG3 didn't have many reps that preseason either.  Enough beat guys have said that they are running a lot of RPO-RO in practice (while not showing it in the preseason) to make me think they want to have that wrinkle perhaps as a surprise in how heavy handed they intend to use it (more so RPO than RO) -- or so I am hoping.  Will see soon enough. 

[Veryoldschool]

5 hours ago, JoeJacobyHOForRIOT said:

Somehow i have the feeling the most talked about subject on this board for 2018 will be , HOW & WHY we let Cousins walk....

 

 

 

No, oh hell no, let’s  have some fun instead.  We got 1 more preseason game to suffer through and then maybe a slow start and the season in ernest and we will see what we got.  But whatever we get from Alex we got him for three years so it makes no sense to look back.  

 

I’m all in with Alex even though I haven’t seen him play more the 5-6 times in his career over 8 or 10 years and didn’t develop an opinion about his talent.  The Skins are all in with Alex so I am firmly ensconced on the Smith bandwagon for at least 2 season for better or worse and I urge my fellow fans to have some patience and faith.

[wit33]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

My main hope is this is 2012 all over again but toned down some. If I recall RG3 didn't have many reps that preseason either.  Enough beat guys have said that they are running a lot of RPO-RO in practice (while not showing it in the preseason) to make me think they want to have that wrinkle perhaps as a surprise in how heavy handed they intend to use it (more so RPO than RO) -- or so I am hoping.  Will see soon enough. 

 

If no RPO or RO what else is there for you to like about Alex?  

[Veryoldschool]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

My main hope is this is 2012 all over again but toned down some. If I recall RG3 didn't have many reps that preseason either.  Enough beat guys have said that they are running a lot of RPO-RO in practice (while not showing it in the preseason) to make me think they want to have that wrinkle perhaps as a surprise in how heavy handed they intend to use it (more so RPO than RO) -- or so I am hoping.  Will see soon enough. 

 

Really?  You want Smith to run a 2012 Griffin style RPO & RO attack?  Boy I hope not.  

[Skinsinparadise]

33 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

If no RPO or RO what else is there for you to like about Alex?  

 

Avoiding turnovers -- accuracy. 

 

But to those that think the dude is special and he will be markedly better than Kirk, etc -- to me if that happens it will be about the RPO-RO, for me that's the wrinkle that could make him stand out.  I don't see him as a kill you from the pocket kind of QB -- he's decent in that regard IMO but nothing special.  But the RPO-RO could be fun -- heck 2 of KC's offensive coordinators in recent years got head coaching jobs in part because of how they schemed up that offense and I recall reading Smith helped Pederson for example in some of the offense's design. So yeah that is the part of Alex's game that gets me jazzed the most. 

 

31 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Really?  You want Smith to run a 2012 Griffin style RPO & RO attack?  Boy I hope not.  

 

When I think of RG3, I think of the RO.   Alex I think more of the RPO which isn't typically as QB run heavy.  The 2nd option on the RO is typically the QB taking off. Not the case with the RPO -- the 2nd option can be run or pass depending on how many people are in the box, reading a defender, etc. The QB taking off is an option too but its typically its not as frequent.  You typically get a lot of quick hitting passes -- screens.    

 

Having said that, I doubt Alex is going to be a stationary type.  He ran for over 350 yards last year.  Almost 500 yards 2 seasons back.  I recall you not loving a QB rushing -- but I'll be surprised if Jay puts the breaks on Alex in that regard. 

 

Russell Wilson can rush for yards without getting blown up.  RG3 struggled with it because he wouldn't avoid contact.  Alex isn't going to run like Wilson or RG3 but you are very likely to see him take off plenty.  Heck that's arguably why we lost to KC, big scamper for a big gain for Alex in the 4th quarter in that one. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Good article IMO on the RPO.

 

Ironically I just got Doug Pederson's book and started browsing it -- he flat out says in it Alex introduced him to the RPO

 

 

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2017/8/25/16201116/most-important-play-2017-run-pass-option-rpo-aaron-rodgers-ben-roethlisberger

The Play That Will Define the 2017 NFL Season

Meet the not-so-secret weapon that Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger, and others are using to flummox even the league’s best defenses: the run-pass option

By Kevin Clark  Aug 25, 2017, 9:23am EDT

 

The RPO has the one trait that NFL teams can’t ignore: it works. Pro Football Focus’s Michael Renner calls the play “free yards.” He found the average NFL game featured about five RPOs last year, the first year the company tracked the play. The Bengals—the Bengals—had the most yards of any team on RPOs last year, at an average of 6.2 per play, or more than a half yard higher than the league average for yards per play in general. At the end of last season, quarterback guru Trent Dilfer told me that these plays had about a 90 percent completion rate league-wide when the quarterback opted to pass. The RPO, in part, fueled Dak Prescott’s record-breaking rookie season, and most college systems run some variation of the play. Unlike many college schemes, it translates well to the NFL level.

“I think this play can be great for a lot of teams,” said Kansas City Chiefs offensive coordinator Matt Nagy....

[Veryoldschool]

I am of the view we lost to KC because they had a healthy balanced team whereas the Skins were grossly unbalanced.  

 

Haven’t seen Alex play much but I hope he doesn’t run much.  

[Sandy Monk]

52 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

I’m all in with Alex even though I haven’t seen him play more the 5-6 times in his career over 8 or 10 years and didn’t develop an opinion about his talent.  

 

Don't worry, you're in good company. Most of the people here only recycle fantasy football ignorant opinions of his career anyway. Like they spent time watching him in SF or KC, lol (most anyway). ? 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

I am of the view we lost to KC because they had a healthy balanced team whereas the Skins were grossly unbalanced.  

 

Haven’t seen Alex play much but I hope he doesn’t run much.  

 

I didn't mean it literally.  But he had an important run in the 4th quarter that helped set up their go ahead at the time field goal -- his big run if I recall was in the 2nd quarter.  As for a balanced team -- I'd say balanced offense for sure.  Their defense wasn't hot last year.  But yeah Alex's wheels is part of his charm IMO -- and I am not alone on that front.

[Morneblade]

6 hours ago, bobandweave said:

Kirk Cousins? Anyone else but me see him once again on a third and 8 last night throw the ball one yard past the line of scrimmage for an easy out for the defense? Kirk did check out his own words about his game performance last night

http://www.1500espn.com/vikings-2/2018/08/kirk-cousins-probably-wont-sleep-easily-tonight-performance-vs-seahawks/

 

Kirk was light years better than Smith last night. It wasn't even close. He threw some really good balls last night. I don't know why you even do this to yourself. Kirk was critical of where he missed throws, and I love how you're using that fact to make Cousins look bad, while just a couple sentences below, Smith saying he had a bad night is a good thing.

 

6 hours ago, bobandweave said:

Alex Smith last night also didn’t have a good showing. And he was out played by Case Keenum who imo is underrated. Denver’s offense was healthy and played everyone where as the Redskins offense wasn’t. Alex was also critical of his showing last night check out his post game interviews on the Redskins app. 

 

Well, you can't go 3-11 and say you had a great night. I think Gruden should have kept the 1st team in longer. Smith needs reps. New system, new players, he needs the work.

 

6 hours ago, bobandweave said:

Jays already said Alex won’t play week four preseason so what we have is two weeks until his next outing. This threads going to be hard to follow the next couple of weeks

 

Some of what Alex did last night was his fault, some of it was the receivers and the offensive lines fault. It wasn’t a good showing for the offense or the defense and the only thing that was good was AP imo.

 

I don't see how the OL was so bad for Smith. Alex made them look worse, he felt phantom pressure and had issues with reads. Fact of the matter Smith needs more time out with his new team, getting used to new players and a new system. Gruden is not setting him up to succeed.

 

6 hours ago, bobandweave said:

I’m not troubled so much about Alex Smith after watching the game as I am with the Defense. The Defense was for the most part healthy and struggled big time. Josh Norman getting picked on in multiple plays was unusual, bad tackling was an issue, corners didn’t make a lot of plays, rushing up the middle of the line looked easy again. Overall I grade everyone including the the playcalling as a D all around minus AP. 

 

I think it will right itself. I don’t suddenly think that he is trash or as someone said a jouneyman QB lol. The team needs to rest and game plan for the game in two weeks. Not pushing any panic button yet on the season let’s just not pretend that everyone played well yesterday and it was all Alex’s fault. It wasn’t it was a team failure

 

I think Alex will be fine, but I think the first couple of games are not going to be good, He hasn't worked with most of not all of his starting WR's. and he's barely worked with anyone live. Hell, I was defending him last night. He needs live action, and Gruden is not giving it to him.

 

5 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

@Skinsinparadise I really think you are missing the boat on this one. @Temper11 brought up that Alex will let it rip when he needs to. You said "not according to football outsiders and multiple other sources."

 

Temper11 is a Alex Smith Homer. Of course he is going to say that. Fact of the matter is that the stats don't support Tempers' assertion. Taking one persons unsubstantiated statement, just because you agree, doesn't rebuke anything.

 

5 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

To which I brought to the table there have been countless pressure stats from 2017, PFF's projections, narratives from the media that believe this could be an upper echelon Front 7. "Good" to me means 12-16 in the league maybe? I think that is a fairly sizable difference.

 

It wasn't about good vs great though. It was how you were disproving Temper on his take using football outsiders take and other sources. Yet don't seem to buy in to a lot of the hype on the front 7, also generated by PFF and other said sources. So I was genuinely curious, when is it that you decide to buy into narratives being pushed around (in the case of Smith) versus "needing to see" in the case of the Front 7.

 

Part of your issue here is that the only thing you seem to consider is pass rush grades. You don't even consider rush stopping grades. We we dead last, last year. We could be top 3 in pressures and sacks and be 20th in stopping the run and it's not a great defense. It's pretty average. Not only that, it has a obvious weakness and teams will exploit that. You're being extremely one dimensional.

 

Good is top 10. Great is top 3.

 

5 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

It wasn't a shot, I'm not coming at you lol. Just a question man.

 

And once again, this is a discussion board. You don't have to defend anything related to your take on Alex. You don't need to change your mind about anything, don't think anyone here is asking you to. But people have different takes, and that generates back and forth and some disagreement. This whole "coming at me, not going to change my mind, only impressed with people who can show you," comes off a bit holier than thou. Just saying.

 

Dude, you're being disingenuous. Opinions are opinions, but you're coming at SiP continually, and he's backing his stuff up with a ton of evidence, while you are not. And because of that, his opinion is worth more, because it's got stuff behind it. Now, you can ignore that, but facts are facts, and stats are stats. And if you can show someone that you're go evidence to back your position, they will likely consider it because you have evidence. It's a discussion board, that's what goes on. Now, if you make a bunch of statements that have no weight behind them, you're not going to convince anyone that your stance is legitiment. Now, if you're continually talking to others, that don't share your view on something, and you're not trying to show them that you are right, just what are you talking to them about? Your logic is failing here.

 

4 hours ago, Sandy Monk said:

respectful and not off the mark, @HardcoreZorn

 

Neither, actually.

 

4 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

Reed, Crowder, and Thompson haven't played yet.  Clearly, the offense is out of sync but Alex will have more success with the Skins best playmakers; Reed, Crowder, and Thompson are in the lineup.

 

He has to get used to playing with them first. But he's had Davis, Doctson and  Richardson to try and get on the same page with, and when you consider that 2 of those guys  are the starting WR, and the other is the TE who will be more than likely the starter for most of the season, seems like he might want to get in with those guys too.

 

4 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I think one big difference in these arguments is that if SIP’s opinion/projection is off the mark, he’ll own it.  

 

I’m absolutely certain that the more optimistic crowd will go into hiding and/or have a boatload of excuses when it doesnt pan out how they expect it to.

 

We shall see.

 

Yep.

[bobafett14]

Chiefs fan here. Just wanted to thank you guys for this image. It's hilarious.

 

[bobafett14]

I'll give you a heads up, though. This isn't "preseason." This IS Alex Smith. 

 

 

He will abandon a clean pocket for no reason multiple times per game, because his primary instinct is to run. He did it here again.

 

 

When something is wrong with the play he just breaks down completely from a mental standpoint and starts looking at the rush, or running into it. He did this in our playoff game TWICE and it pretty much cost us the game.

I watched Alex Smith run himself into at least 10 extra sacks a season for five seasons in KC.

 

Also, get used to watching him run out of the pocket to the right (even if the pocket is fine, he has a timer in his head that says "get out of here!!!) and running out of bounds, running for no gain or a yard, or throwing it away. His ability to improvise is extremely limited.

 

Hope you have a top 10 defense because that's the only way he's going to "earn" that disgustingly huge contract you gave him.

 

But the good news is he won't make glaringly awful mistakes so you get to have dumb arguments about whether he is good or bad online, especially with his legion of vagabond sycophants. They are quite annoying.

 

 

 

 

[MisterPinstripe]

5 minutes ago, bobafett14 said:

 

 They are quite annoying.

 

 

 

 

Unlike you. Go back to a KC board. ?

[bobafett14]

2 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

Unlike you. Go back to a KC board. ?

 

I'm literally the opposite of annoying. I drop in here once or twice a year. 

Heed my words.

[MisterPinstripe]

1 minute ago, bobafett14 said:

 

I'm literally the opposite of annoying. I drop in here once or twice a year. 

Heed my words.

My main point was you talking about how annoying his vagabond sycophants are, meanwhile you are going out of your way to go to another teams board to trash him. That's pretty obsessive and annoying as well. We don't even play you all this year. We have enough people here that dislike him, you can go back to the KC board and trash him there.

[bobafett14]

You have a low tolerance for annoying.

Which means you won't be a fan of Alex very long.

[Morneblade]

1 minute ago, MisterPinstripe said:

My main point was you talking about how annoying his vagabond sycophants are, meanwhile you are going out of your way to go to another teams board to trash him. That's pretty obsessive and annoying as well. We don't even play you all this year. We have enough people here that dislike him, you can go back to the KC board and trash him there.

 

Well, they are annoying.