SBNation:Kendall Fuller film review: How could the Redskins trade this guy?

[skinny21]

@normal_gymnasium

You’re falling into the same trap people have fallen into repeatedly with other players.  It’s a team game. You don’t downgrade Fuller because the D struggled.  In fact, it should be the opposite.  Imagine how much worse we might have been without him.  Beyond that, it’s not even about Fuller persay, it’s the philosophy of trading away a very good, young, cheap talent.  You just don’t see teams do that unless they have some sort of issue with the player (scheme fit, for example).  

 

I am certainly aware that either you include Fuller or you lose Smith.  That’s my problem though, the FO acted as if this had to happen.  As if Smith were the only option.  He might have been the best option in terms of talent and scheme fit, but the FO put themselves in a poor position.  They got into a bidding war with two teams that made much more sense as landing spots for Smith.  

 

It’s why I buy the PR angle - if they had picked up Bradford, or had gone with Colt (leaving them more resources in FA and the draft) and kept a very talented corner rather than creating another hole to fill... they might have been made to look bad at the one position they’d already screwed up on repeatedly.  

 

It maybe be cynical to think this way, but it makes so much sense that it all comes from that need to stay competitive, which comes from a desire for job security.  There’s some irony in there for you too with relation to Cousins wanting job security as well.  

 

When decisions hinge more on survival than intelligence/reasoning, you wind up with a move like this.  

 

IMO, I might look to trade with the Chiefs, but when they say Fuller, I counter with Norman or Dunbar.  If they insist on Fuller, I walk away.  At that point, you can even spread the word that the Chiefs wanted Fuller and you weren’t willing to deal.  You look smart for saying no, you save the cap space, draft pick and player, and you move on to plan B - Bradford, McCoy, the draft, etc.  They (Allen) were obviously not willing to move on, and that’s a problem. 

 

Let me ask you a question, if you were the GM, why make this deal now?  Sure, you lose Smith if you don’t, but you have plenty of other options out there (including attempting to sign Cousins).  Keep in mind, those other options are better suited to making the team better.  Also keep in mind that by acquiring Smith, you can probably afford to bring back Breeland and Brown (and not much else).  So, you’re essentially in the same place as we were last year, except we have Smith instead of Cousins and we lost Fuller (and the third rounder).  Does that trade make sense when (many of) our problems last year are unresolved?  Or would you rather use that 3rd on a developmental qb, use the additional cap space on a high end FA (receiver, DL, G), and keep your budding star corner?

 

Sorry, getting carried away with the rest of the trade.  Fuller is a stud and had enormous value for us.  That’s how you build a team, pure and simple.  You keep your young studs and trade/cut your aging players, all the while using the draft (and FA) to upgrade, provide depth, and replace the aging guys.  

[normal_gymnasium]

18 hours ago, skinny21 said:

the FO acted as if this had to happen ...

 

... if you were the GM, why make this deal now? Sure, you lose Smith if you don’t, but you have plenty of other options out there (including attempting to sign Cousins).

 

These are the two points I'll address, as they are directly related to each other

 

1) The FO, we can all agree, put themselves in a bad position. They methodically undermined every bit of their leverage with the way they handled Kirk Cousins. It's as if they never played the tape through, never asked all the "what if" questions in 2015, such as:

 

What if Kirk plays really well and his value goes up, and we have to pay through the nose to keep him?

What if we franchise Kirk and he plays well again, and he's kinda put off that we wouldn't sign him to a good deal when he was willing to take it?

What if Kirk decides that it's better to take the guaranteed money from a franchise deal than any contract we would realistically offer?

 

It's as if they never expected Cousins to play well. Maybe they thought by playing him, they'd give him the rope and he'd hang himself. Their attitude seems to have been, We're talking about a 4th rounder here. He should jump at the chance to sign any halfway decent long-term contract. He should be happy to get what we give him.

 

The FO obviously miscalculated this situation badly on all fronts (although time will tell if Cousins will ever be a wartime consigliere). Now the FO knows they screwed up but can't admit it publicly. They will look like fools – or even more foolish than they already do – if they pay him $30M a year in 2018 when they could have had him for $18M a year after the 2015 season.

 

So they almost HAVE to take the position of "Kirk's not worth the money" and move on. Yes, they did this to themselves. Nevertheless, some kind of move for a legit QB did have to happen. It's kind of like they're saying, Well, all our dumb decisions over the past 3 years make this a good one. Weirdly, that's sort of true.

 

Which bring us to...

 

2) If I'm the GM, I make the deal now because someone else was going to. I've decided that Alex Smith is the guy, so I go get him. Here are the other options, besides signing Kirk:

 

VETS:

Sam Bradford

Case Keenum

Teddy Bridgewater

AJ McCarron

Josh McCown

Ryan Fitzpatrick

Geno Smith

Maybe Tyrod Taylor

+ a bunch of people who are not even going to be in the league next year

 

DRAFT:

Josh Rosen

Josh Allen

Sam Darnold

Baker Mayfield

Lamar Jackson

 

There's no guarantee that any of the college kids would be available at #13 (remember the run on QBs in last year's draft), and none of them are 'can't miss' prospects anyway. Bradford has all the tools but he's going to join Jordan Reed in the injury-prone hall of fame. Keenum I'm not sold on, and his success seems to be tied a lot to Pat Schumer. Bridgewater is not that good to begin with and he's coming off a Theismann-esque injury. AJ McCarron is an RFA and can't beat out Andy Dalton. The others are not even worth mentioning.

 

Basically it comes down to one simple truth: the FO screwed up. The price for that screw up was Kendall Fuller.

[Bang]

14 minutes ago, normal_gymnasium said:

Basically it comes down to one simple truth: the FO screwed up. The price for that screw up was Kendall Fuller.

Can't say it any better than that. It's unfortunate, but that is a true statement.

I wanted to keep Cousins as much as anyone, but, oh well. It could be worse. At least we're not left holding nothing.

 

~Bang

[skinny21]

@normal_gymnasiumGood post.  

 

I would counter/add this:  one way to mitigate the screw up is to take their lumps at the qb position.  Many people were insistent that we go the Jacksonville route - build the team via the money Kirk would have gotten and via the draft.  

 

Spelled out -

Continue to beef up the defense, which is likely tougher now since 1) they added a new ‘need’, 2) replacing Fuller’s caliber of play is exponentially more difficult 3) they gave up a 3rd rounder, and 4) Smith is not at a bad salary level, but signing him still impacts our cap in a big way.  

Beef up the offense (minus the qb spot)  - again, tougher now for the above reasons.  

Draft a qb to develop - marginally tougher now because of the missing draft pick, lesser cap space and added ‘need’.  

 

So again, the move seems mostly geared toward a shorter term attempt to mitigate their failures at the qb position. I wasn’t thrilled with trading away the draft pick, was not happy to hear we would add a player, but I was incensed that the player was Fuller.  His value (talking price vs production) makes his inclusion in the trade a big no no.  Offer Dunbar, offer Norman (high price rage, but we’d eat his bonus, giving them a very good corner at a solid market rate), otherwise, walk away.  This is where I think the PR scare caused them to make the move.  They felt the need to stay competitive at the position at all costs.  

 

A common refrain has been we’re essentially trading Fuller for Smith (which is BS), so let me ask you this... would you have traded them Johnathan Allen instead of Fuller?

 

He’s far more expensive, hasn’t (yet) shown to be the player Fuller is, and we could find a replacement in FA or the draft (and we have Lanier and Francis to help replace him - two guys that have shown more than Moreau/Holsey).  They also play roughly the same amount of snaps (Fuller a bit more even, I believe).  Oh, and Fuller is actually younger (and doesn’t have the long term injury concern Allen has).  

 

My assumption is no. My assumption is also that people would be rightfully ticked off if that happened.  

 

Sidenote - two arguments that have irritated me on this subject..,

1) Fuller is just a slot corner, no big deal.  Truth is, he can play outside too, we’ve struggled finding an adequate slot player for years, slot corners are basically starters in this day and age, and who the heck is going to cover Shepard, Beckham and all the other good slot receivers we face?

 

2) (as I mentioned above) our 3rd round pick we get from letting Cousins walk cancels out the one we traded away.  Nope.  It means we have 1 3rd rounder instead of two.  It means we don’t have one this year, when we could really use it.  Draft picks (this isn’t my logic) devalue, so next year’s 3rd is more like a 4th this year.  

 

Edit:  here’s a third and fourth...

3) we traded slot corner for qb, so we won out because the qb position is more important.  This is true of course on the surface, but as I explained above, would people be fine trading away Allen for Smith?  No biggie, right?  Qb is obviously more important than DT.  

 

4) the defense wasn’t good with Fuller playing, so what does it really matter?  I’m not even going to waste time arguing against that point... it’s too dumb.  

[Warhead36]

The FO paniced because they didn't want to be outbid by the Browns. Once again they care more about their own perception of their status in the league than making reasonable good moves.

 

Ask yourselves: would Bellicheck make a trade like this?

[max21]

26 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

The FO paniced because they didn't want to be outbid by the Browns. Once again they care more about their own perception of their status in the league than making reasonable good moves.

 

Ask yourselves: would Bellicheck make a trade like this?

No he wouldn’t because he has Tom Brady. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

30 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Ask yourselves: would Bellicheck make a trade like this?

It's actually pretty much impossible to even imagine, because 1) Belichick wouldn't have put himself in this position in the first; and 2) He has been a Super Bowl contender virtually every year in New England.

 

If Brady retired and he needed a QB to keep his team in title contention, maybe he does this deal. To trade this assets to keep his team in the middle of the pack? No way.

[JSSkinz]

Fuller, Kirk, 2 first round draft picks and a 2nd rounder, they are all directly related to the RG3 trade.

 

That was the worst trade in Redskins history.

[ClaytoAli]

40 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

Fuller, Kirk, 2 first round draft picks and a 2nd rounder, they are all directly related to the RG3 trade.

 

That was the worst trade in Redskins history.

My god man let it go.....

[normal_gymnasium]

2 hours ago, skinny21 said:

would you have traded them Johnathan Allen instead of Fuller?

 

Of course not. It's been demonstrated pretty well over the course of history that a dominant D-line is more impactful than a good secondary. You can't suck at either, but stopping the run, and negatively affecting a QBs ability to throw in rhythm from the pocket, are the surest ways to have a good defense. Is Allen dominant? He graded out very well when he played and he was collapsing the pocket regularly which doesn't show up on the stat sheet. Dominant is a stretch, but he could get there soon.

 

3 hours ago, skinny21 said:

1) Fuller is just a slot corner, no big deal.  Truth is, he can play outside too, we’ve struggled finding an adequate slot player for years, slot corners are basically starters in this day and age, and who the heck is going to cover Shepard, Beckham and all the other good slot receivers we face?

 

No one says slot corner isn't important. Maybe Fuller transition to the outside, maybe he doesn't. Every position is important in its own way, and slot corner is more valuable than ever in today's NFL. But it's still down the list. I'd say it's no better than 8th, behind QB, DE, LT, RB, DT, outside corner, #1 WR. Wide range of opinions here I'm sure, but follow the money. There isn't a single slot CB in the top 150 players in the NFL by salary. Cornerback is the 6th highest paid position in general, and most of that money goes to outside corners. If they were all that important, they'd get paid better.

 

Fabian Moreau will have a huge role to play. He's better suited to the outside tho, and with the likely loss of Breeland they'll have to draft another (probably a fairly high) pick to man the slot. It's not ideal to be sure, especially with that pick gone. This is where the trade really hurts. Instead of potentially finding an Alvin Kamara or Kareem Hunt at RB (both 3rd rounders), they'll likely use the 2nd on Fuller's replacement and twiddle their thumbs during the 3rd. 

[JSSkinz]

14 hours ago, ClaytoAli said:

My god man let it go.....

What do you want me to let go?  Its a thread about losing Fuller, his loss is collateral damage from the RG3 trade.

 

 

 

 

[Ashburn Dave]

It's already been said but we ended up here because we didn't sign Cousins two years ago when the price was right.

 

Given that we were here this year and more than likely going to watch Cousins walk without any return IMO this is about as good as it was going to get.  The team wants to win now even though we all know they still need many more pieces.

[Birdlives]

I put this forth before, don’t think anyone answered; maybe I don’t have my facts straight. Did Fuller have micro fracture surgery? Does this cause issues like early degeneration of the joint? If so, could this be something at all? Just wondering...

[ClaytoAli]

2 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

What do you want me to let go?  Its a thread about losing Fuller, his loss is collateral damage from the RG3 trade.

 

 

 

 

His loss has nothing to do with rg3, but everything to do with not getting a cousins deal done 2 yrs ago

[JSSkinz]

Just now, ClaytoAli said:

His loss has nothing to do with rg3, but everything to do with not getting a cousins deal done 2 yrs ago

 

Look, when the Qb you really needed to keep sits on the bench for the first 3 years of his 4 year contract and you only get to see him start 1 full year in which he has a "meh" first 8 games and good last 8, its always going to be a tough situation for a GM.

 

People ask "why can everyone else sign their QB's but we cant", well everyone else starts them day 1 after drafting them, Kirk sat on the bench, caught feelings, and didn't give a large enough sample size before wanting the $19.5M $44M guaranteed that Scott M "didn't feel comfortable with".

 

That was the beginning of the end in my opinion and it pushed us into making a rash decision to trade for Smith which cost us Fuller.

 

It's all collateral damage.

[stareRoid]

I personally wanted to puke when I heard we lost Fuller...... effing hated it.

 

However, we have Fabian Moreau who some had pegged as a late first rounder that we scooped up in the third round due to injury. (Sounds familiar to me)

 

It’s possible the front office feels that our Secondary has good depth and we may not have to downgrade like everyone perceives with the loss of Fuller. Heck maybe in 2 years we can sign him back......

 

Just trying to stay positive......

[SWFLSkins]

On 2/3/2018 at 6:43 PM, Warhead36 said:

The FO paniced because they didn't want to be outbid by the Browns. Once again they care more about their own perception of their status in the league than making reasonable good moves.

 

Ask yourselves: would Bellicheck make a trade like this?

 

On 2/3/2018 at 7:11 PM, maxspruill21 said:

No he wouldn’t because he has Tom Brady. 

 

Hell apparently he wouldn't have traded Grop even with Tom Brady, lol..... 

[PortisBetts]

It is amazing how much I used to love this team compared to now, where I loathe them. I used to live and die by this team, but its ruined. My passion is gone and I don't think there is any way to bring it back barring a miracle; i.e Bruce and Dan were right all along and the redskins go deep into the playoffs....but like i said, miracle. 

 

I wish bad things on Snyder. The trade for Smith was fine.Until I saw Fuller. That was likely the final straw for me. We haven't had a young talent like Fuller on defense in a LOOOOONG time. So what do the Redskins do? Get rid of him. Open up the same hole that was there 2 years ago when this team got roasted by tight ends and slot receivers. Guess what problem the Redskins will have next season? Stopping slot receivers and tight ends. Bet they also get blown up with receiver screens because again, they got rid of their best defender against that play. 

 

I can't anymore. This team, the way they are run, is too stupid and will never change no matter what makeup they put on this pig. 

 

[srtman04]

7 hours ago, PortisBetts said:

It is amazing how much I used to love this team compared to now, where I loathe them. I used to live and die by this team, but its ruined. My passion is gone and I don't think there is any way to bring it back barring a miracle; i.e Bruce and Dan were right all along and the redskins go deep into the playoffs....but like i said, miracle. 

 

I wish bad things on Snyder. The trade for Smith was fine.Until I saw Fuller. That was likely the final straw for me. We haven't had a young talent like Fuller on defense in a LOOOOONG time. So what do the Redskins do? Get rid of him. Open up the same hole that was there 2 years ago when this team got roasted by tight ends and slot receivers. Guess what problem the Redskins will have next season? Stopping slot receivers and tight ends. Bet they also get blown up with receiver screens because again, they got rid of their best defender against that play. 

 

I can't anymore. This team, the way they are run, is too stupid and will never change no matter what makeup they put on this pig. 

 

 

I'm done too.  I can't take any more insanity......I'M MAD AS HELL AND I AINT GONNA TAKE IT NO MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Darrell Green Fan]

How could they trade a guy like this?  Because that's what it costs to acquire a good starting quarterback. And a quarterback has a much bigger effect on the outcome of a game and a season than a good cornerback does.  They are better with Smith and no Fuller than they are with Fuller and Colt McCoy starting.

[desertbeagle85]

Sign Malcolm Butler and all will be forgiven.

[skinny21]

Out of curiosity, are there other examples of teams trading away young, talented, rookie contract players that they really like for an older, more expensive player?  

 

Ironically, the one I can think of is the Portis/Bailey trade.  Of course, that involved a 2nd rounder going in the other direction, and Bailey was still quite young. 

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

How could they trade a guy like this?  Because that's what it costs to acquire a good starting quarterback. And a quarterback has a much bigger effect on the outcome of a game and a season than a good cornerback does.  They are better with Smith and no Fuller than they are with Fuller and Colt McCoy starting.

Well, it’s actually Smith vs McCoy, Fuller, a 3rd rounder and 17 mil in cap space.  So more like Smith or McCoy, Fuller, Zach Brown, Breeland and say Kyle Lualetta or Troy Fumagali.  Deal may be even worse if we can’t draft a qb this year.  

 

If Brown and Breeland don’t move the needle much, how about Sheldon Richardson, McKinnon and Trent Murphy?

 

Trickles down from there of course - 1) getting Fumagali means we have a replacement for Reed (allowing us to cut him and save money this year or next), 2) getting a dlineman and starting back opens up our 1st and 2nd round picks IMO (qb? wr? S?, ILB?), 3) re-signing Murphy keeps our OLB rotation strong, and 4) retaining Fuller means we don’t have to take a corner in the draft.  

 

Again, yes, they got the best qb on the market, but the cost was high.  So, the FO “fixed” the uncertainty of the qb position (a situation they had a big hand in bringing about), at the expense of building the team.  Hopefully they can dig themselves out of this hole.  

 

I am intrigued to see how Smith can do in this offense, which I think the FO is banking on.  

[Silvernon]

On 04/02/2018 at 1:19 PM, Birdlives said:

I put this forth before, don’t think anyone answered; maybe I don’t have my facts straight. Did Fuller have micro fracture surgery? Does this cause issues like early degeneration of the joint? If so, could this be something at all? Just wondering...

Yes he did, and it will cause wear and tear but microfracture surgery is better then 10+ years ago, ie. when it caused downgrade in Rocky McIntosh's stock. Guys who have microfracture surgery should be significantly devalued. That said, if it was a minimal slice and he avoids future injury he could be in line for a 8+ year career. 

Fuller has big hands and good arms for sub 6'. His leaner build has helped him in the slot. 

Moreau is the superior athlete - they kept the player with the higher upside.

[Warhead36]

8 minutes ago, Silvernon said:

Yes he did, and it will cause wear and tear but microfracture surgery is better then 10+ years ago, ie. when it caused downgrade in Rocky McIntosh's stock. Guys who have microfracture surgery should be significantly devalued. That said, if it was a minimal slice and he avoids future injury he could be in line for a 8+ year career. 

Fuller has big hands and good arms for sub 6'. His leaner build has helped him in the slot. 

Moreau is the superior athlete - they kept the player with the higher upside.

Or we could have kept both and had a dynamite young secondary that can carry the team kinda like Denver/Seattle.

 

People seem to think just because we have one talented young player at a position it means we can get rid of others. I'd rather keep all our good young players and build one kickass unit that can carry games.