Per Russini, Gruden will be back for 2018

[skinsfan212689]

We need a true offensive coordinator so Gruden can focus on the entire team. He van keep his offensive concepts and but bring in a true OC already. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 minutes ago, skinsfan212689 said:

We need a true offensive coordinator so Gruden can focus on the entire team. He van keep his offensive concepts and but bring in a true OC already. 

I said that before 2014 (his first season) and in the off-season when I heard they were promoting Cavanaugh to OC, but not giving him play calling responsibilities.

 

It's a silly way to run a team.  

[skinsfan212689]

Just now, Voice_of_Reason said:

I said that before 2014 (his first season) and in the off-season when I heard they were promoting Cavanaugh to OC, but not giving him play calling responsibilities.

 

It's a silly way to run a team.  

That's very true. I'm not knocking Cavanaugh but there are some quality guys out there. We need to snatch up a true play caller. That could make all the difference. Also it would give Gruden time to get the entire team ready on a weekly basis. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

The Giants are a mess.

The Cowboys have serious issues.

The Eagles MVP is coming off a devastating injury.

 

There is a serious opportunity for the Redskins to win the East in 2018 and retaining Jay is a critical component of that.

 

#optimist

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

The Giants are a mess.

The Cowboys have serious issues.

The Eagles MVP is coming off a devastating injury.

 

There is a serious opportunity for the Redskins to win the East in 2018 and retaining Jay is a critical component of that.

 

#optimist

The Giants hired a heck of a good GM who’s built multiple teams and they have the second overall pick

 

the eagles have the best roster in the east top to bottom, and will get Wentz back at some point.

 

The Cowboys will be fine with Zeke available all year.  They should have a very good offense.  Defense is a ?

 

The Skins have no QB (unless Cousins is back, which I doubt), below average skill position players, a bonehead President and an average HC. 

 

#realist

[TradeTheBeal!]

Colt McCoy is a good quarterback.

[A Skinhead in Saints Land]

What I really read is, "Another Year with Bruce Allen."

[profusion]

I'm fine with this. Gruden is hardly the second coming of Vince Lombardi,  but he brings stability and grit to an otherwise shoddy and unstable organization.

 

His contract will be up at about the time that Snyder hopefully starts to tire of Bruce Allen, so having the next president/GM pick the next coach would be preferable.

[Rufus T Firefly]

4 hours ago, skinzplay said:

 

Cavanaugh is a fantastic OC, 

Is he? By my count he's been an OC for 9 years in the league and the highest his offenses ever ranked was 14th. He did have the 8th highest scoring team one year in Baltimore, but that probably had more to do with a D that caused so many turnovers and gave such good field position, since they were 21st in yards, 27th in 3 down conversion pct and 29th in red zone efficiency.

 

Obviously, some of that is due to the talent he had to work with, but he was kind of famous for being under fire for unimaginative offenses in Baltimore and even at Pitt when he worked in the college game for a few years.

[HigSkin]

No surprise, if you look around the NFL most HC's are offensive minded and Jay's scheme has done a lot for Cousins numbers.  He needs a strong DC and I'd really like them to snag Gus Bradley.  Allen and Gruden were with him in Tampa so the relationship is there.  Bradley was only on a 1-year deal with the Chargers and did a good job of coaching up their play.  

[RemoveSnyder]

The Redskins FO are masters at making the wrong decision for the right reasons.

Continuity can be a good thing. Continuation of what though? 

 

They also happen to be really good at making the wrong decisions for the wrong reasons too. So there's that. 

[Cooleyfan1993]

1 hour ago, HigSkin said:

No surprise, if you look around the NFL most HC's are offensive minded and Jay's scheme has done a lot for Cousins numbers.  He needs a strong DC and I'd really like them to snag Gus Bradley.  Allen and Gruden were with him in Tampa so the relationship is there.  Bradley was only on a 1-year deal with the Chargers and did a good job of coaching up their play.  

I’d like jay to hire a good DC as well (Bradley, maybe guenther from the Bengals??) but i kinda doubt he’ll let go of Manusky after just one season. I think He’s too loyal to do that 

[Rufus T Firefly]

16 minutes ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

The Redskins FO are masters at making the wrong decision for the right reasons.

Continuity can be a good thing. Continuation of what though? 

 

I've been tired of the continuity argument for a long time. I'd prefer the emphasis to be placed on competence instead.

 

People think that teams are good because they have continuity. I'd argue it's generally the reverse of that. Yeah, Belichick, Tomlin, and Carroll aren't in danger of losing their jobs. But I don't think it's because those organizations have decided continuity is paramount.

[RemoveSnyder]

18 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Thats what Gruden is.  And don’t be fooled, he’s the defacto roster picker.  He selects the final 53.  Bruce just says “ok” to whatever he wants.

 

I don't think this can be overstated enough.

And it's completely understated here on the board. 

 

There have been a few nuggets that have escaped out in recent memory via tweets, the Ioannidis pick (supposedly), and more recently, the Roullier stuff. 

 

But that's more of a commentary on BA's chain of command structure with the FO which has a flowchart that is up, down, sideways and backwards. 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Is he? By my count he's been an OC for 9 years in the league and the highest his offenses ever ranked was 14th. He did have the 8th highest scoring team one year in Baltimore, but that probably had more to do with a D that caused so many turnovers and gave such good field position, since they were 21st in yards, 27th in 3 down conversion pct and 29th in red zone efficiency.

 

Obviously, some of that is due to the talent he had to work with, but he was kind of famous for being under fire for unimaginative offenses in Baltimore and even at Pitt when he worked in the college game for a few years.

Cavanaugh is a blah OC.  

 

But he’s only OC in title here.  Jay is the OC.  But he doesn’t have the time to dedicate to it entirely.  So Callahan does the run game, Jay calls the plays, and Cavanaugh does ... I’m not sure.

 

what the team needs is an OC who installs the game plan, holds the position coaches accountable for teaching the players, and can call a good game.  

 

I actuallly have no doubt Jay would be a fine OC.  But he can’t be both the OC and HC.

 

Few can.  Jon could.  Apparently McVay can.  But Jay can’t. 

[RemoveSnyder]

6 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Cavanaugh does ... I’m not sure.

 

The QB coach. As he was in title prior to McDoogie Howser going off to LA. A glorified QB coach with the added title of OC. 

 

what the team needs is an OC who installs the game plan, holds the position coaches accountable for teaching the players, and can call a good game.

 

Dan Enos. 

 

Has some history with Cousins via Michigan State. But more importantly, what he did with Arkansas was every Sunday NFL scheme stuff and when he had NFL talent, Brandon Allen, Hunter Henry, Alex Collins, that offense was beautifully executed. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 minutes ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

Dan Enos. 

 

Has some history with Cousins via Michigan State. But more importantly, what he did with Arkansas was every Sunday NFL scheme stuff and when he had NFL talent, Brandon Allen, Hunter Henry, Alex Collins, that offense was beautifully executed. 

There’s no way that happens.  It’s so out of the box that this group of management fools couldn’t even see it as an option.

 

Also, I fully expect Jay to do exactly the opposite and take on MORE responsibilities. It’s classic management issue:  when you have a problem, try to fix it yourself rather than find the right person to fix it for you.

 

Most first/second year managers go through this growth area.  The good ones figure it out after working themselves to death for bad results.  The bad ones get fired because they don’t figure it out.

 

We’ll see which group Jay falls into.  

[Wildbunny]

41 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

There’s no way that happens.  It’s so out of the box that this group of management fools couldn’t even see it as an option.

 

Also, I fully expect Jay to do exactly the opposite and take on MORE responsibilities. It’s classic management issue:  when you have a problem, try to fix it yourself rather than find the right person to fix it for you.

 

Most first/second year managers go through this growth area.  The good ones figure it out after working themselves to death for bad results.  The bad ones get fired because they don’t figure it out.

 

We’ll see which group Jay falls into.  

Gruden's already trying to fix Bruce's mistakes.

[TSO]

On 12/31/2017 at 7:23 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Thats what Gruden is.  And don’t be fooled, he’s the defacto roster picker.  He selects the final 53.  Bruce just says “ok” to whatever he wants. So the team will look very similar, with similar results.

 

This is nonsense and it’d be wonderful if you’d stop peddling it. 

 

Is that what Bruce did when he got cheap with Aubrey Pleasant, who Jay wanted to promote after they fired Fewell? Is that what happened when Jay wanted DJax back and they made a final push for him at his behest, but Bruce offered him less than Tampa did and they ended up with Pryor? Is that what happened when Bruce fired Scot, who Jay had no problems deferring to regarding personnel, and wouldn’t have had any issue with deferring to someone else they brought in as a bonafide GM (btw, guess who pushed for FO help in the first place that lead to the Scot hire? Yup, Jay)? Is that what’s been happening with the Kirk contract, where Jay is the main proponent in the building of getting him signed long term, while Bruce continues to handle it with sheer idiocy? 

 

Heck, even though it’s not good to have the coach have final say on personnel, it’d be better if you were right and Bruce just told Jay “okay”. We would’ve had a better WR corps this year and Kirk signed long term a while ago. Who knows what else. 

 

As for “selecting the final 53”, that’s something damn near every coach gets to do during the season as they’re in charge of the depth chart. GM with final say or not. Properly structured FO’s usually have the GM shape the roster during the offseason, then it’s mostly on the coaches to figure out the depth chart and, thus, the final 53. 

 

Acting like Gruden wouldn’t have accepted the team drafting or signing better RBs and/or WRs during the offseason is absolute nonsense because he defers to the scouts there. He even stated he’d love to have one of the dynamic backs coming out of college last draft and that “it’d be hard to pass on them” while talking up Rob Kelley. They still drafted Perine, who they sincerely thought had a chance to take the job from Kelley. 

 

You actually think he was the one in charge of ending up with guys like Grant and Kelley at the top of the depth chart because he praises whoever his players are at any given moment and that he wasn’t looking to get better at those spots? This odd scenario you have in your mind where Gruden is ordering everyone involved in personnel to not upgrade there because of Grant and Kelley is laughable. Like he was telling them to stop when they wanted to draft Kamara or something. Dude praises Dunbar and Everrett a bunch, too, they still drafted Moreau and Nicholson, the latter of which took the starting job from Everett almost immediately. Come on now. 

 

Until we get a properly structured FO with a legit GM who has the authority to shape the team with a unified vision, the ceiling is 7-9 wins. The fact that Jay, Kirk, and the rest of the underlings involved are hitting said ceiling isn’t a knock on them. It’s impressive. It’s a damn shame seeing you or anyone else apply that ceiling on their skill set instead of the FO’s. Everyone has weaknesses. Pointing them out incessantly doesn’t make you right.  

 

Don’t be a Dan Snyder. Target the right people. Jay’s a good employee and won’t throw the amateurs up top under the bus. He’s a good employee who, when these amateurs burden him with more responsibilities, he’ll accept it, work around them, and he’ll try and make the best of it. Maybe that’s a fair criticism of him as that’s why he’s lasted, and he should instead pull a Shanny and go nuclear. But don’t mistake that for him agreeing with everything they do. He even publicly said they don’t once right before this season, when talking about Bruce Allen, which stood out to me that he’d openly say that, even though he tried to make it light. 

[justice98]

I'm going to cut Gruden some slack as OC, they simply were talent deprived on that side of the ball.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Kind of piggybacking on @thesubmittedone 's point, is that no doubt Jay has some guys he's very fond of for a variety of reasons, ie: Fat Rob, Grant, Thompson, "Dunny", whatever the case may be.  I don't get the impression that just because he likes guys like Fat Rob and Grant, that he's stupid enough to turn down better options had they been available to him.  I just don't see a scenario where it makes sense for Jay to be turning down better personnel because he likes or overvalues certain guys.

[Voice_of_Reason]

6 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

This is nonsense and it’d be wonderful if you’d stop peddling it. 

 

Ok fine. I will admit that I don't actually know who picks the final 53.  Nobody really knows, because as you said, the team really has no known structure. Nobody knows what Jay does, what Bruce does, what Doug does, or any of the other folks in the FO.  

 

So I'll drop it.

 

The next month or so is going to be very telling to see what the plans for 2018 are going to be.  It's going to be very telling if they can work something out early with Kirk to avoid the last-minute brinkmanship on the contract. It's going to be telling who they bring back from their FAs. And it's going to be telling to see if they make any coaching staff changes.

 

I'd really like to see a new special teams coach, and a new OC.  I think Jay would be a better HC overall if he didn't have to worry about being the OC/Playcaller.  That's a lot to ask of anybody. Very few are successful at it, and even those that were succesful with it early in their HC careers gave it up eventually (Mike Shanahan to Kubiac, Reid has given it up a few times, McCarthy has given it up and taken it back, then given it up again).  

 

The Special Teams have been "eh" to bad for 4 years under this coaching staff. I think it's time to make a change there.

 

I personally wouldn't change DC, I think Munusky has done well enough to earn another shot.  And the defense was playing pretty well until they lost (first) Norman, then subsequently Foster, Allen, Ioannidis, and then everybody else.  Injuries happen, but when you lose 50% of your starters...

 

Let's see.  I hope they self scout enough to understand that they can't just keep the entire status quo.  There need to be some shakeups here and there.  Injuries had a lot to do with it, but there were also other reasons that are within their control they could change to be more competitive next year.  

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Kind of piggybacking on @thesubmittedone 's point, is that no doubt Jay has some guys he's very fond of for a variety of reasons, ie: Fat Rob, Grant, Thompson, "Dunny", whatever the case may be.  I don't get the impression that just because he likes guys like Fat Rob and Grant, that he's stupid enough to turn down better options had they been available to him.  I just don't see a scenario where it makes sense for Jay to be turning down better personnel because he likes or overvalues certain guys.

The only thing I'll say to this is that coaches tend to be fairly conservative, and they like known quantities. They'd prefer, in general, to take somebody who knows exactly what is asked of them and will be in the right place at the right time over a more talented player who might not quit get it yet.  This is absolutely not unique to Jay, it's almost all coaches.  So they will tend to think that the guys who are more reliable are better than the more physically talented guys who are, at least initially, less reliable.  A good GM/FO will coax (not force, mandate or demand) that the coach at least try and develop the more talented players so they become reliable.  

 

To @thesubmittedone point, the issue is that we don't have the right FO structure to help with those types of decisions.  

[Peregrine]

Just further proof of the debacle this franchise has become.  Gruden makes the playoffs 1 time in 4 years?  Gets job security.  Have 2 seasons in a row failing to win more than half of your games?  Nothing changes, nobody gets fired, business as usual.

 

Theres nothing worse than having to seriously question whether you should even raise your son to be a fan of your favorite team because he has no hope for anything but tears.  Its not that this organization failed again.  Its that it doesnt even try, it just says "this is fine".

[RemoveSnyder]

9 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

Until we get a properly structured FO with a legit GM who has the authority to shape the team with a unified vision, 

 

Honestly I think this is the underlying theme from VOR's post. Who cares if he was fixated on Gruden specifically? Gruden has a voice in the hierarchy. But it's an out of tune chorus. 

The structure nonetheless is ... ****ing complex, man. 

 

There are too many cooks in the kitchen. Everyone has a voice. Campbell has a voice, Doug has a voice, Santos has a voice, Ky Smith has a voice, the assistant  to the assistant has a voice. Bruce has his coors light and a voice. Jay has a voice. And at some point in time Dan fancied himself an apprentice scout. 

 

I mean, we hear things come out in the media about Bruce pounding his chest when Trent Murphy does something good. The narrative we got from the team back when things were all good was that he's a lunch pail and hardhat kind-of guy. But then somebody decided to open up his lunch box and found PED needles in there. Well, what did Bruce have say about that? 

 

And I've had my own suspicions that Bruce has fostered a climate where it has been ok for people in the FO to "call out" one another, or talk behind each other's backs in critical tones, if the final decision on said player turns out to fail. It's like each FO exec has their own horse in the race and they're stubborn to a fault. 

 

It's like we've got a FO full of nascar drivers all competing against each other. And rubbin is racin' right?   

 

 

We hear little tweets about the selection of Ioannidis and how he was Jay's guy, the implication being that Gruden fought to get him when all the other 10 voices in the room had their 'own guy.' I mean, Ioannidis was a green light player for me. I went on record here before the draft about how he was my choice for the 5th round.  Do I get to claim savant vision? 

 

Another recent example: the Keim tweet about Jay's fondness of Roullier. You know my take away from that was that there's already been a predetermination within the FO on the o-line. Rather than a broad based approach of, "hey we're always looking for the best talent available," it's more like predetermined moves. And I could expound upon that later. in more detail. 

 

 

And we get snippets about how Doug is hunkered down watching all the QBs for the up coming draft. Cool. I'm sure everyone else is too. But to take it further down the logic hole, what would make anyone not think that positional coaches like Callahan aren't looking at tape of o-linemen, for example? Or the DB coach looking at DBs?

 

I'm sure there's a cultivation of info from all corners of the organization. That would be sensible. 

 

If Bruce logs into the secure server and clicks on their proprietary positional rankings and clicks on a specific prospect and sees a new scouting log entry by the Defensive Back coach on said prospect and reads all the technical jargon about the player's attributes and such, and which games stood out as good and why the player is ranked in said round ... awesome. If Bruce buys it and earmarks the dude and come draft day remembers the positional coaches info and that sways him on a 50-50 choice between the DB prospect and some other dude ... cool. 

 

But it would seem there's always another wrinkle with this organization. In that, after Bruce selects the player that the positional coached advocated for, or showed fondness for, it would seem that Bruce then goes to that positional coach and makes it clear that he did him a solid. Wink and nudge. So when it comes time that ole Brucey needs backing, remember who gave you a maximum boost during the draft. 

 

 

But as you said, it's all about the collection of mass data, mining, and then ONE person doing the synthesizing of all that info into a choice. And it can't be fractious divisions within the org where each person thinks they are their own GM and behind the scenes they each promote their vision as the correct one and they each pound their chest when they were "right" and someone else was "wrong." 

 

I mean, our FO comes off like warring tribes of apes from 2001 space odyssey. Only the monolith never comes. 

 

Ultimately we know Bruce out ranks everyone, but Dan. We know Bruce can get your ass fired if he wants. So, that's why I blame him, ultimately. But even he seems to find a way to always elude the spotlight. And we all ask why didn't this happen or that happen and all 15 voices in the room look over piercingly at the Janitor. 

 

Who the hell is accountable here? 

 

The point you bring up later about specific players in the draft, you mentioned Kamara. I just ... someday I'd like the story from the FO to be: "you know, we got the guy we all liked." And that dude is the league sensation everyone can't stop talking about. Instead of the usual narrative of, "oh shucks, our FO knew Kamara was the dude but ... blah, blah, blah ... excuse, excuse, excuse ... we didn't get him." 

 

Isn't it funny how our FO always knows who the right choice was, after the fact? And that the secret savant someone in the organization who apparently promoted the future league sensation before the fact is still here, but they were just ignored by big ole meany drunk dude, who they just coincidentally fired? 

 

I'm just waiting for the day when dudes are accountable and are like: "yep ... we should have gotten that dude. Here's why it didn't happen. We're fixin that. Next time we'll get it right." And if they can't get it right, I'd hope they'd be held accountable and we get someone in here who can make the selections for the Kamara's or the Jarvis Landry's of the draft. 

 

 

In summary, I know you and I are on the same page. I'm just venting here.

But my point is simply, I think you and VOR are probably arguing over the same coin.

 

I think VOR called into question why there's always such divergent visions within the FO. You highlighted it. The Head Coach wants Cousins as our long term franchise QB. Apparently the highest ranking FO exec hasn't been willing to make that happen, for various reasons. 

 

 

And as for me, I'm arguing that perhaps there are these moments when one faction gets the headwind and pushes for a specific player and only later on do we here the narrative of how:  

- If the player fails: it was someone else's fault. 

- And the player succeeds: well it was really only one visionary within the FO who really saw it all along. 

 

Too fractious.