Will Cousins Play For The Skins In 2018

[Tay]

18 minutes ago, KDawg said:

So since 2012 here are the conference finals QBs

 

Flacco x1

Brady x6

Kaepernick x2

Ryan x2

Peyton Manning x2

Wilson x2

Luck x1

Rodgers x2

Newton x1

Palmer x1

Roeth x1

Bortles x1

Keenum x1

Foles x1

 

By my count, out of 24 possible QBs:

 

9 fall in elite

2 fall in elite intelligence, but not the same physically

7 fall under below elite but very capable

3 fall under meh

3 fall under “we’ll see”

 

Since Brady continuously accepts deals below market value for a Franchise QB,

 

15/24 of the appearances listed here are with QB contracts below Franchise QB market value.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

I'll try and explain where I'm coming from. First, I'm not dismissing all of the variables, I'm just choosing to keep this about KC and how far he can take a team. The blown chances last year at home, the losses to Dallas and NYG, the poor starts to seasons. Are these all Kirk's fault? Of course not, but he has played a role in these losses rather than being the reason we win these games. The losses to the Giants and Panthers last year at home where we scored only 10 and 15 points are very tough to ignore. Win one of those games and we likely go to the playoffs. Really we should've won them both. I think KC is very capable QB, I just don't think he's worth what he's gonna ask for and I'm not convinced he can take us to the top without tons of help. 

One consistent factor in the majority of those losses you're talking about is the inability to run the ball and defenses pinning their ears back pressuring Kirk relentlessly.  He absolutely has bad games when teams get this kind of pressure on him...just like practically every QB to ever play the game.  I don't think it has anything to do at all with his mental makeup or inability to make throws.  I think you guys are going to be waiting a really long time for this awesome quarterback who doesn't have those kinds of games.

[Skinsinparadise]

It's not as if we haven't played the dance of building up a roster or trying to do so without a QB.  Some of the posts give the vibe that this is a new and exciting venture -- lets try it. 

 

It's not new.  It's been the vintage Dan Synder era game.  Why is it different this time?  

 

The only thing that makes sense in theory if the idea is selling the drill as if its new and different is because Bruce & Doug somehow are so much sharper than the Shanny-Bruce and all the other FO combinations we've had.  Bruce and Doug are special and they will figure out what Casserly,  Marty-John Schneider, Gibbs-Cerrato, Shanny-Bruce couldn't do.  

 

I know that comes off sarcastic but its true.  People aren't advocating here a new formula.  People are advocating an old formula that has been the norm -- during the Dan era.

 

It's reopening the old neighborhood restaurant that was shut down because the food wasn't that good.   The same people in the building are the same ones who tried the Beck-Grossman drill, traded for McNabb, traded the farm for RG3 and couldn't figure out how to lock in their franchise QB.  So we are advocating here, yeah it only looked bad, we got Doug-Bruce who are around 60 years old but they have a spring in their step and they have a new refreshing take about this all. 

 

I just struggle with the logic of that the same people who had the keys to the king dome who screwed this up royally are all going to be the same people who defy the odds and let a QB go and produce the FIRST Redskins team in the Dan era that Jaguars style will ride an elite defense to the championship and or defy the lottery-crap shoot element of finding a franchise guy by getting lucky on this front fast.

[zoony]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

It's not as if we haven't played the dance of building up a roster or trying to do so without a QB.

 

Why is it different this time?

 

There is no answer to this.  No polite one, at least. (For instance, `there are a lot of really stoopid redskin fans` is a correct answer)

 

Cousins is the only shot that this clown show has at any kind of winner.  Otherwise its wait until snyder sells or croaks.

[Redd]

30 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

And Eli Manning, Joe Flacco, Joe Namath, Len Dawson, Ken Stabler, Jim Macmahon, Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler among others. Yes we would love to have the GOAT at QB and a top ten defense. But we dont have either. And Kirk doesnt check the GOAT box. That means we need to be able to build a top ten defense to win with him. 28 Mill per year in his pocket has an effect on that.

 Personally I would take Eli off the list.  He has shown on 2 occasions he can be clutch and win championships with the game on the line.  And it wasn't against scrubs either.  It was against who many consider the GOAT, twice.

[goskins10]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

It's not as if we haven't played the dance of building up a roster or trying to do so without a QB.  Some of the posts give the vibe that this is a new and exciting venture -- lets try it. 

 

It's not new.  It's been the vintage Dan Synder era game.  Why is it different this time?  

 

The only thing that makes sense in theory if the idea is selling the drill as if its new and different is that Bruce & Doug are so much sharper than the Shanny-Bruce and all the other FO combinations we've had.  Bruce and Doug are special and they will figure out what Casserly,  Marty-John Schneider, Gibbs-Cerrato, Shanny-Bruce couldn't do.  

 

I know that comes off sarcastic but its true.  People aren't advocating here a new formula.  People are advocating an old formula that has been the norm -- during the Dan era.

 

It's reopening the old neighborhood restaurant that was shut down because the food wasn't that good.   The same people in the building are the same ones who tried the Beck-Grossman drill, traded for McNabb, traded the farm for RG3 and couldn't figure out how to lock in their franchise QB.  So we are advocating here, yeah it only looked bad, we got Doug-Bruce around 60 years old but with a spring in their step and a new refreshing take about this all. 

 

I just struggle with the logic of that the same people who had the keys to the king dome who screwed this up royally are all going to be the same people who defy the odds and let a QB go and produce the FIRST Redskins team in the Dan era that Jaguars style will ride an elite defense to the championship and or defy the lottery process of finding a franchise guy by getting lucky on this front fast.

 

It's not sarcasm when it's factual. 

 

I have to say I have the same befuddlement. I am just not sure how you can look at this organization and the people running it and think that all of a sudden they will become extremely competent when the one true opportunity they had to show this - they could not have messed up any more than they have. How is that anyone expects this group run by Bruce Allen will suddenly have new results when the most primary of positions that was given to them on a platter they cannot seems to figure out how to get out of their own way. It's not even like they had to get creative. Just pay the man and move on to something else!!!  It is not rocket science!! 

 

As you rightly point out and I am going to repeat - well because I can - we have been down this same road too many times. At some point you have to take a different turn if you keep ending up in the same place. 

 

[Tay]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

It's not as if we haven't played the dance of building up a roster or trying to do so without a QB.  Some of the posts give the vibe that thie is a new and exciting venture -- lets try it. 

 

Why is it different this time?

 

Ideally we will have Kirk. I'm doubtful that it would happen, but I want Kirk on a LTD.

 

I also don't think we're SOL without Kirk.

 

Since Bruce has arrived I think our roster has continuously improved. There are certain positions where we've taken a step back (WR stands out), but overall our roster is getting better. I think Bruce does a much better job than Vinny at relying on the talent evaluators to have strong input on decisions. Of course he's not completely removed, but IMO the franchise has made a huge shift in that regard with Bruce. While Doug is the manager, I get the sense that Kyle Smith has the most input on college scouting and Alex Santos does for pro scouting.

 

I also have faith in Jay. I think he does a very good job of getting good play from the QB position. I wouldn't be comfortable moving forward with many other HC/OC, but Jay has a good track record thus far in the league with QB play.

[clskinsfan]

7 minutes ago, Redd said:

 Personally I would take Eli off the list.  He has shown on 2 occasions he can be clutch and win championships with the game on the line.  And it wasn't against scrubs either.  It was against who many consider the GOAT, twice.

 

I tend to agree with you. But the point was more about riding a defense to a title. And Eli did that once for sure. The other one he was very good. But I dont consider Eli an elite QB. Do you?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 minutes ago, Redd said:

 Personally I would take Eli off the list.  He has shown on 2 occasions he can be clutch and win championships with the game on the line.  And it wasn't against scrubs either.  It was against who many consider the GOAT, twice.

The GOAT that didn't look like the GOAT when the Giants pressured the heck out of him.

 

Sure Eli made some throws and is capable of doing so, but his defense was the MVP in defeating Brady.

[Redd]

2 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

I tend to agree with you. But the point was more about riding a defense to a title. And Eli did that once for sure. The other one he was very good. But I dont consider Eli an elite QB. Do you?

I wouldn't  go so far as elite but very good.  Maybe a better way to say it is Eli Manning is a lock for the HOF stats be damned.

[Fat Stupid Loser]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

It's not as if we haven't played the dance of building up a roster or trying to do so without a QB.  Some of the posts give the vibe that this is a new and exciting venture -- lets try it. 

 

It's not new.  It's been the vintage Dan Synder era game.  Why is it different this time?  

 

The only thing that makes sense in theory if the idea is selling the drill as if its new and different because Bruce & Doug somehow are so much sharper than the Shanny-Bruce and all the other FO combinations we've had.  Bruce and Doug are special and they will figure out what Casserly,  Marty-John Schneider, Gibbs-Cerrato, Shanny-Bruce couldn't do.  

 

I know that comes off sarcastic but its true.  People aren't advocating here a new formula.  People are advocating an old formula that has been the norm -- during the Dan era.

 

It's reopening the old neighborhood restaurant that was shut down because the food wasn't that good.   The same people in the building are the same ones who tried the Beck-Grossman drill, traded for McNabb, traded the farm for RG3 and couldn't figure out how to lock in their franchise QB.  So we are advocating here, yeah it only looked bad, we got Doug-Bruce who are around 60 years old but they have a spring in their step and they have a new refreshing take about this all. 

 

I just struggle with the logic of that the same people who had the keys to the king dome who screwed this up royally are all going to be the same people who defy the odds and let a QB go and produce the FIRST Redskins team in the Dan era that Jaguars style will ride an elite defense to the championship and or defy the lottery-crap shoot element of finding a franchise guy by getting lucky on this front fast.

But, but, but, but........ Kirk is not the GOAT. Not even a baby goat. 28 million will destroy us. 24 won't, but 28 WILL. Destroy us I tells ya.  Lets just keep doing it the old, new way.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

As you rightly point out and I am going to repeat - well because I can - we have been down this same road too many times. At some point you have to take a different turn if you keep ending up in the same place. 

 

I'll also chime in and triple down on this as well.

 

We've tried to build a winner without a quarterback for decades.  Let's try to win with a QB and a big contract for once.  If it doesn't work, oh well - neither has anything else.

 

Thats what's so mind boggling about the argument to me.  Winning with Kirk and a big contract is not a guarantee just like winning without him and spending money elsewhere isn't a guarantee.  Why waste what they've developed to this point to start over again?  

[clskinsfan]

35 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

One consistent factor in the majority of those losses you're talking about is the inability to run the ball and defenses pinning their ears back pressuring Kirk relentlessly.  He absolutely has bad games when teams get this kind of pressure on him...just like practically every QB to ever play the game.  I don't think it has anything to do at all with his mental makeup or inability to make throws.  I think you guys are going to be waiting a really long time for this awesome quarterback who doesn't have those kinds of games.

 

I will give you that. But his mental makeup has also been shown to be questionable at times. Horrid interceptions at awful times are still a part of his game. 

 

I want Kirk back. But I also want to be able to build a defense with him as our QB. Maybe they break the bank for him and rely on the draft to build the defense. But there is no doubt if you make Cousins the highest paid player in the league some other part of your team will suffer for that decision. There is only so much money to go around. Look at Jacksonville. They could afford to sign Calais Campbell and Malik Jackson because they are only paying Bortles 19 Mill next season. Now of course I would rather have Kirk than Bortles. But i would prefer to have him at 19 mill :). 

[Redd]

16 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The GOAT that didn't look like the GOAT when the Giants pressured the heck out of him.

 

Sure Eli made some throws and is capable of doing so, but his defense was the MVP in defeating Brady.

I've already commented on why it's great to have a good qb and great defense because that wins championships.  What you quoted me on was on Eli Manning and you're not entirely wrong but Eli won both times against the Patriots on game winning drives.  The giants were losing and they drove both times to win it all.  It showed me it wasn't a fluke and I'm still amazed how they pulled it off against imo a better team.

 

 Yes the defense kept it close but the defense alone wasn't enough.  That's why the goober has 2 rings and 2 super bowl mvps. His overall stats are kind of average though. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

I will give you that. But his mental makeup has also been shown to be questionable at times. Horrid interceptions at awful times are still a part of his game. 

 

I want Kirk back. But I also want to be able to build a defense with him as our QB. Maybe they break the bank for him and rely on the draft to build the defense. But there is no doubt if you make Cousins the highest paid player in the league some other part of your team will suffer for that decision. There is only so much money to go around. Look at Jacksonville. They could afford to sign Calais Campbell and Malik Jackson because they are only paying Bortles 19 Mill next season. Now of course I would rather have Kirk than Bortles. But i would prefer to have him at 19 mill :). 

I think the Jags are the exception to the rule.  Calais Campbell's salary alone is more than the difference between Blake at 19 and Kirk at 28.  The Jags also have a bunch of drafted players on that defense playing great ball at lower salaries.  Not to mention a stud running back that they drafted that takes a lot off of Blake.  Basically the Jaguars years of losing a lot of games resulting in high draft picks in combination with the addition of pricy free agents is now paying off. 

[Unbias]

50 minutes ago, Tay said:

Since Brady continuously accepts deals below market value for a Franchise QB,

 

15/24 of the appearances listed here are with QB contracts below Franchise QB market value.

I wouldn't say that. Brady's deals have a lower ceiling, but have far more guaranteed money. If you check the link he's the 15th in terms of $/year, but outside of the franchise tag guys he' s#1 in terms of guaranteed $//year and has just over 68% of his contract guaranteed. 

 

Actually if you look at the Brady/Garoppolo thing Tom's camp was fairly crude in constructing that deal because it made him untradable/uncuttable until this offseason, which Tom went right to the owner to ensure Garoppolo was gone. 

[zoony]

 Kudos to the Jags for figuring it out

 

Everyone points to teams like the redskins as examples of why free agency doesnt work.  Hlwever it is a bad example, because what the redskins did was consistently trade draft picks and give up draft picks and simultaneously build in FA.  The redskins are a case study in ignoring the draft, not the folly of free agency.

 

Why cant both be done?  Draft and spend in FA?  If Im a GM, Im looking at every unspent dollar as a self imposed fine.

 

Imagine if teams like green bay decided to really start spending, how crazy good they could be...

 

(Although there is the whole compensatory pick thing)

[HigSkin]

Pretty good blab going on at "The Herd" right now about average QB's being in the Championship games and how it's a strange year because Minnesota may not have even been there had Rodgers stayed healthy - 12-6 against the Vikings, Titans the same if Luck hadn't gotten hurt - Colts have been 9-0 against the Titans the last few years and then Eagles would not be in it if they had to play with Foles all year.  They're discounting the defenses like Jags since Steelers hung 42 points on them and Saints hung 24 on Vikings in the 2nd half and stopped turning the ball over, heck the Skins scored 30 on the Vikes this year.

 

Thought provoking....

 

 

[Unbias]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

So since 2012 here are the conference finals QBs

 

Flacco x1

Brady x6

Kaepernick x2

Ryan x2

Peyton Manning x2

Wilson x2

Luck x1

Rodgers x2

Newton x1

Palmer x1

Roeth x1

Bortles x1

Keenum x1

Foles x1

 

By my count, out of 24 possible QBs:

 

9 fall in elite

2 fall in elite intelligence, but not the same physically

7 fall under below elite but very capable

3 fall under meh

3 fall under “we’ll see”

 

 

If Foles started the entire year I doubt they are in the same position (might miss playoffs and most likely aren't the #1 NFC seed). I'd sub him out for Wentz, who's in one of your top two categories. 

[JSSkinz]

11 minutes ago, zoony said:

 Kudos to the Jags for figuring it out

 

Everyone points to teams like the redskins as examples of why free agency doesnt work.  Hlwever it is a bad example, because what the redskins did was consistently trade draft picks and give up draft picks and simultaneously build in FA.  The redskins are a case study in ignoring the draft, not the folly of free agency.

 

 

6

 

Exactly, which is why I would disagree this team has tried to build through the draft as some are saying.

 

We had 3 picks in the 2003 draft(no 1st rounder), 4 picks in the 2007 draft, and no 1st rounder in 2006 or 2008.

 

It didn't help that we had an all-world player murdered.

 

We know what happened with our picks in 2012.

 

Snyder has only drafted 3 Qb's in the first rd since he bought the team.  I don't know who is responsible for Beck but RG3 was Dans pick and Campbell was all Joe Gibbs.

 

I don't see how this team has made an effort to use the draft and build the team the right way.

 

 

[KDawg]

28 minutes ago, Unbias said:

 

If Foles started the entire year I doubt they are in the same position (might miss playoffs and most likely aren't the #1 NFC seed). I'd sub him out for Wentz, who's in one of your top two categories. 

 

That doesn’t change the dynamic much, though. But I’ll give ya Wentz.

[Hail4Life]

On 1/15/2018 at 1:44 PM, Unbias said:

 

Yeah, there's a chance we have a new 'Trent Dilfer' as a SB winning reference, but overall it's not something that happens too often. 

 

Hell even Rex Grossman made it to the super bowl so yes, every 20 years or so a Trent Dilfer miracle happens...definitely not something to emulate.

[Tay]

54 minutes ago, Unbias said:

I wouldn't say that. Brady's deals have a lower ceiling, but have far more guaranteed money. If you check the link he's the 15th in terms of $/year, but outside of the franchise tag guys he' s#1 in terms of guaranteed $//year and has just over 68% of his contract guaranteed. 

 

Its a 2 year deal. Of course it's mostly guaranteed. 

[bobandweave]

2 hours ago, purbeast said:

I may be misunderstanding the transition tag, but isn't another option that he simply plays on the 1yr deal for $28 million (or whatever the transition tag price is)?

 

IMO, if they transition tag him, he's just going to play on the 1yr $28 million deal and will be a free agent next year and we are back to square 1.  Any type of franchise/transition tag IMO means no LTD gets done here.

 

Your point here is valid and correct but your missing one small piece of this as I read that. Could be too early for me to be replying today but I think this point is important.

 

If it happens that Kirk signs a one year transition tag in 21018 and doesn't move teams then the following year the Redskins could use the Transition tag again on him again and keep him from becoming a Free Agent in 2019. That would be the only way the Redskins could in 2019 keep him from Free Agency. Him becoming a free agent in 2019 on the transition tag usage in 2018 is still very much in question. 

 

I'm of the thinking when all is said and done what is going to happen here with Kirk is that the transition tag is going to be used on Kirk this year. His agent then advises Kirk that the only teams he should negotiate with for a LTD are the Broncos and the Jaguars because they are close to another Superbowl with his services and if those teams are not buying or only presenting offers to Kirk that the Redskins are likely to agree to then Kirk isn't signing a LTD in 2018 period.

 

In the end I don't think a LTD is ever going to happen for the Redskins and that ship has sailed. 

 

The problem with the transition tag usage here is that one more year of Kirk in 2018 with no LTD only prolongs this drama and essentially amounts to nothing more then the team renting a player at an extremely high price for one season that won't result in a championship. Its the long term outlook that says transition tag is a bad deal. Nothing about the transition tag use requires a player to seek out other opportunities from other clubs so why would he? Maybe to just leave but then again if he worries the Redskins could match a deal he wouldn't do that

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, zoony said:

 Kudos to the Jags for figuring it out

 

Everyone points to teams like the redskins as examples of why free agency doesnt work.  Hlwever it is a bad example, because what the redskins did was consistently trade draft picks and give up draft picks and simultaneously build in FA.

 

Why cant both be done?  Draft and spend in FA?  If Im a GM, Im looking at every unspent dollar as a self imposed fine.

 

Imagine if teams like green bay decided to really start spending, how crazy good they could be...

 

I've made a similar point before.  The only thing for me as for the two drills, the draft I think is more essential because of you do it right, you get young-cheap talent.  You can't build IMO with FA as your primary tool.  But its a great complement if you use it wisely.  So I do like both.

 

And the other thing is use FA to buy some big talent in the mix.  Quality beats quality.   If you are overpaying for other teams JAGs like Bruton, A. Roberts, K. Reyes -- I am not in love with FA.  But if you are adding a very good player, that's a different game.  People bring up Haynesworth but that's on scouting -- it wasn't exactly a big secret what type of dude he was before the signing.  And you are going to get FA signings wrong just like you will with the draft but its nothing to panic about.

 

 

1 hour ago, Tay said:

Since Bruce has arrived I think our roster has continuously improved. 

 

Bruce has been here almost 10 years now.  Zimmer for example went to the Vikings and turned around a bad defense within one season.  We saw how the Rams turned around a bad offense within one season.    The defense and special teams has been mostly bad during that whole Bruce era.  Running game has tanked since Shanny left.  Only thing that's been above average was the passing game when they've had good QB play for 4 of those seasons.  

 

They've failed on QB in every major way you can.   Going for the retread - Beck/Rex.  Trading picks for a veteran on the downside of his career - McNabb.  Trading the moon for a guy in the draft -- RG3.  And the kicker is they can't even figure out how to judge their in house QB so at best they lose millions they could have saved and keep him and at worst he just walks out the door for just about nothing.

 

Just because the dude doesn't overspend on FA, doesn't mean he's been hot at FA.    He's been as hit and miss as Vinny or anyone else.  Only difference is his misses aren't as devastating to the team economically as Vinny's mistakes.  But as for getting signings right -- mediocre.

 

During Bruce's tenure, we've tried the JAG at QB and lets build the rest of the roster drill.  2010 version of the Redskins.  And 2011.  In 2012, we had good QB play and surprise, surprise they won the division.  2013 back to the formula  some people here love -- a cheap JAG play at QB.  We were terrible.   Ditto 2014.  And the teams were really really bad in the years we are talking about.      Kirk became the guy in 2015 and all of a sudden the team wasn't bad.  But the rest of the units were still mostly bad.

 

That's what some are shouting about hey lets see what these guys can do AGAIN with a JAG at QB.  It's not like in all of the other Dan years they were saying to themselves we don't have a QB -- but we really don't want to have a good defense either.  Where now Bruce is going look, look, look lets do this elite defense thing.  Anyone who wants an elite defense, just makes it happen.  Simple and boom.  We just didn't realize we wanted an elite defense back when we had Jags at QB.  But now we do. Doug lets go get Redskins One rolling and lets go get ourselves an elite defense! 

 

Sarcasm isn't directed at you. I am just saying this model in essence going back to old school Dan Snyder.  But somehow counting on Bruce being the game changer-difference this time -- I really really doubt it.  Bruce has been here for a big chunk of the QB failures.