Makaveli

The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

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28 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

I doubt it matters. When you're bunkered into an "us vs. them" mentality, adding more "thems" usually doesn't do anything but entrench you more. 

Dan needs an intervention, Bruce is like Meth and Dan is hooked for some odd reason.

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Nope. Not into that narrative at all. Jay signed an extension here. He had had plenty of time to see the incompetence here. In fact, we were in the middle of the ridiculous disfunction of the Cousins and McLovin episodes at the time. I get the there are only 32 of these jobs and it was a good amount of money, but he had gotten a big 5 year deal to start with and the extension was only 2 more years. Imagine what it would have meant for his reputation, and future job prospects if he had just said no to a new deal, let it expire and walk. He didn't really have to say anything just "differences of opinion on how to move forward as a team" or whatever. Everyone would have known he was bailing on Dan and Bruce, everyone would have understood, everyone would have respected him for it, and he would have been given a virtual free pass on whatever his record was here. But he chose to sign on for more of it. 

 

So no, if he's "trying to get himself fired" then he's basically violating the spirit of the contract he signed. And he deserves no sympathy, no "feel bad for Jay" campaigns, none of it. He had an out. One that would have done him a world of good, and been one of the few things that might have given us Skins fans some hope of this nightmare ending. Instead, he chose a bit of extra money on a two year extension. He made his bed, he should lie in it. And if he's really trying to get himself fired, so he collect the money from that deal while getting out of half the work, then he's just a dirtbag. 

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Somehow this is getting twisted into a Jay pity party and that’s not my point at all.  There is a difference between feeling sorry for him and acknowledging that he hasn’t been provided an environment for being his best.

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I don't get the impression that Jay is trying to get himself fired based on what Sheehan and Russell said.  The impression they give is if he goes -- he wants to go out on his own terms and if he loses his job so be it.  So you got a feistier Jay behind the scenes. 

 

I am one of Dan's biggest critics but if he offered me a 10 million dollar extension, I'd take it.    I've had a particular job for 7 years where there was a lot of office politics and that time didn't flow like some neat linear line where every year felt the same.  By year 6 (ironically) it wore thin on me much more than earlier on because all of the crap just felt heavier over time where I had enough.  I ended up leaving then and I've run my own business ever since.    

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I don't get the impression that Jay is trying to get himself fired based on what Sheehan and Russell said. 

The trying to get himself fired line is from the Lombardi quotes you posted. To be clear, that part is ancillary at most. The main point is whether Jay deserves pity, or sympathy, or if he's being wronged somehow by being forced to deal with all the crap here. He deserves nothing of the sort. It'd be one thing if we were just talking about his first contract and first opportunity. He'd made a ton of money here already and knew what he was signing up for. He chose to be party to all that's happening in this organization.

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am one of Dan's biggest critics but if he offered me a 10 million dollar extension, I'd take it.   

Have you already made $20 mil+? Do you have decades of 7 figure salaries to look forward to based on your job? 

 

Yes? And you've chosen to marry yourself to this regime for money anyway? Even at the potential expense of your professional reputation and potential future earning opportunities? Fine, then what that money has bought is that you are the organization you're part of, and vice versa. You made your bed, you watched someone urinate in it and now you can lay in it.

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I've had a particular job for 7 years where there was a lot of office politics and that time didn't flow like some neat linear line where every year felt the same.  By year 6 (ironically) it wore thin on me much more than earlier on because all of the crap just felt heavier over time where I had enough.  I ended up leaving then and I've run my own business ever since.    

Was the internet full of stories of how crazily horrible your bosses were before you joined them? Did you deal directly, on a daily basis, with these bosses and experience how incompetent they were for multiple years? Was their incompetence and avarice something which negatively impacted your public and professional reputation? Did you choose to sign up for more of it while those bosses were in the middle of multiple occasions of making national laughingstocks of themselves, and to which you were directly involved? 

 

I tend to doubt it, which makes that, as an analogy, spurious at best.

Edited by Rufus T Firefly
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I think Lombardi is right when it comes to Snyder needing to be the one to dictate the culture. Which means we're probably screwed...

 

As to Gruden, it's worth noting that HC jobs with the quality organizations don't come along as often. Is working for Dan/Bruce that much worse than working for the Bidwills or Jimmy Haslam? Easier to just stay on in a job you already have, even if you know it's a mess.

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40 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

The trying to get himself fired line is from the Lombardi quotes you posted. To be clear, that part is ancillary at most The main point is whether Jay deserves pity, or sympathy, or if he's being wronged somehow by being forced to deal with all the crap here. He deserves nothing of the sort. It'd be one thing if we were just talking about his first contract and first opportunity. He'd made a ton of money here already and knew what he was signing up for. He chose to be party to all that's happening in this organization.

 

 

I saw the Lombardi quote but he's clearly just guessing.  I'd trust Sheehan and Russell more because they intimated they heard it from someone close to Jay.  They suggested Jay is in a WTF, nothing to lose mood.   Who knows.  But I don't take Lombardi's line that seriously.  I take Lombardi more seriously when he talks about Bruce because he's recounting things that actually happened (at least from his perspective) in Oakland.

 

I don't feel sorry for Jay, give me 30 million and I'd take as much crap as people can dish out.  The problem though is if this team wants to attract another coach who is highly touted, that dude could likely get 30 million too without the same headache.  So that's the next challenge.    The impression I get listening from those who cover the team is that Jay is dead man walking. 

 

I am not as convinced as others that the next coach might be the elixir.  Your point seems to imply (correct me if I am wrong) that ANY coach deserves whatever miserable time comes their way because they should have known better and they decided to take the money.  I actually agree at this point in time.  Not so much when Jay took the job because the context then wasn't that carte blanche.

 

40 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

You made your bed, you watched someone urinate in it and now you can lay in it.

 

 

I'd put money that Bruce told Jay those stories about Dan are nonsense and regardless he has his back or whatever.  Bruce and the Grudens go way back.   I doubt Dan, Bruce or whomever just takes it on the chin and say yeah what you've read about us is true.  I bet they do the whole media conspiracy narrative and go on about how this and that story is wrong.

 

Heck this whole thread is littered at times with a defense of the FO from some of our own fans.  I've gotten into some really feisty and hot debates with FO defenders here who make a long case about how the stories about Dan-Bruce are questionable and how this FO has a lot more cooking than we give them credit for.  And that's from Redskins fans.  Can you imagine how Bruce-Dan have their rap down?

 

I do agree with an aspect of this point though.  That is, now the sample size is big enough.  Jay might have been the last straw.  Plenty took the FO-Dan side against Shanny.  That battle wasn't one sided as for public perception.   In late 2013 there were plenty of narratives including by the media that Shanny was the problem not the FO.  In retrospect, when RG3 bombed as a player among other things Shanny ended up looking better.  But in the throes of the Shanny departure plenty sided against Shanny.   

 

But if you disagree, cool, I don't care.  My point has nothing to do with feeling sorry for Jay.  I don't feel sorry for him.   I do like Jay as a person from a brief exchange and what I've heard about him, so I hope he gets out of here.  But not from the perspective of feeling sorry for the dude but from the perspective of bringing out his best which I think is more likely going to happen elsewhere. 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I'd put money that Bruce told Jay those stories about Dan are nonsense and regardless he has his back or whatever.  Bruce and the Grudens go way back.   I doubt Dan, Bruce or whomever just takes it on the chin and say yeah what you've read about us is true.  I bet they do the whole media conspiracy narrative and go on about how this and that story is wrong.

Bruce convinced Jay of this three years into Jay's tenure here, in the middle of their bungling of the Cousins and McLovin fiascos? And Jay bought it?

 

Fine, then your central thesis seems to be that Jay Gruden is a moron of mammoth proportions? Kind of harsh, dude, but whatever. 

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Just now, Rufus T Firefly said:

Bruce convinced Jay of this three years into Jay's tenure here, in the middle of their bungling of the Cousins and McLovin fiascos? And Jay bought it?

 

Fine, then your central thesis seems to be that Jay Gruden is a moron of mammoth proportions? Kind of harsh, dude, but whatever. 

 

OK, I gather this discussion is going nowhere.  If that's the odd way you want to connect my points.  Then have it.  ;)

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2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK, I gather this discussion is going nowhere.  If that's the odd way you want to connect my points.  Then have it.  ;)

I agree it's going nowhere and didn't see any reason for it to continue. 

 

But let's be clear, my entire response to the "poor Jay" (and you used those exact words, btw) narrative was that he deserves zero sympathy because he signed an extension, agreeing for more of this incompetence and disfunction after he had already experienced it for years. In fact, virtually every word I typed not he subject was predicated on his agreeing to sign up for more of this.

 

You responded directly to one of those comments by telling me that "I'd put money that Bruce told Jay those stories about Dan are nonsense". So, the clear and in fact, only, interpretation of what you posted is that you think that Jay was capable of being convinced, three years into his tenure that "stories about Dan are nonsense".

 

So, either you think Jay is that stupid or you failed at following the thread of the discussion you were engaged in. I strongly suspect it's the latter and that's fine, it can happen to all of us. And I don't want to get into a fight with one of the better posters here. But don't pull "the odd way you want to connect my points" on me. I connected what you clearly said. Don't falsely accuse me of distorting your words to get out of your what you posted. 

Edited by Rufus T Firefly

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42 minutes ago, Stadium-Armory said:

I would take Gettleman/Shurmer over Allen/Gruden every time.

They’re the same combo except one GM is less of a disgusting person.

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8 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

I agree it's going nowhere and didn't see any reason for it to continue. 

 

But let's be clear, my entire response to the "poor Jay" (and you used those exact words, btw) narrative was that he deserves zero sympathy because he signed an extension, agreeing for more of this incompetence and disfunction after he had already experienced it for years. In fact, virtually every word I typed not he subject was predicated on his agreeing to sign up for more of this.

 

You responded directly to one of those comments by telling me that "I'd put money that Bruce told Jay those stories about Dan are nonsense". So, the clear and in fact, only, interpretation of what you posted is that you think that Jay was capable of being convinced, three years into his tenure that "stories about Dan are nonsense".

 

So, either you think Jay is that stupid or you failed at following the thread of the discussion you were engaged in. I strongly suspect it's the latter and that's fine, it can happen to all of us. And I don't want to get into a fight with one of the better posters here. But don't pull "the odd way you want to connect my points" on me. I connected what you clearly said. Don't falsely accuse me of distorting your words to get out of your what you posted. 

 

I used the word poor as part of an expression the poor dude has been here long enough.  If you wanted to take it literally, cool.  I got it.  So I clarified it for you.   I flat out said I didn't feel sorry for him in pretty strong terms.   I think I elaborated enough on it including about the extension where I hit the money part and hit that dysfunction can wear more after a LONGER period citing my own example.    And I think I was pretty nice about how I expressed how I thought you were taking my words -- I just called it an odd way to connect them.   

 

We typically get along in our exchanges, I recall we had one exchange eons back that didn't go well, so I didn't and still don't feel like going back and forth like that this time.  So that's all that's cooking with me here.  😀

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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20 hours ago, ntotoro said:

 

We all know the reasons why. This stuff is nothing new. I just took exception to those two things. The deal with McLovin, there was more detail than Brucie Boy's ego chasing him off. He wasn't the goose that laid the golden egg as it twere, anyway. It's not as simple as a battle of egos. The deal with the Junks asking if he'd accept an offer from Dan... you can't just trash the man, even with the obvious, for ten minutes and fail to give a definitive answer to the question. If you're gonna' come, come heavy or don't come at all. That's my point. Say "**** no, I'd never work for this dumpster juice organization, are you ****ing kidding me?"

 

I'm not even upset about the team anymore, which is actually worse. I'm actively praying Pretzel Boy fails to get a new stadium deal and is either forced to live in that ****hole in Landover or move the team and uproot it. I'm really ready for that.

 

 I think this is the way a lot of the fan base feels today. Its gotten to the point that even on the first game of the year, we all kinda get that feeling of 'hey, maybe things will be different this year', then reality comes along with an open-handed slap to the face and we're all back to doom & gloom.

 

But all is not lost; I say there needs to be a nice invitation, embossed lettering and all,  sent to Bruce Allen, to attend a ' Lights Out Luncheon ' held at the 50 yd line at RFK stadium the day of demolition. 

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Lights Out Luncheon - post of the day vote logged

 

I heard Galdi/Sheehan say Kyle wanted Kirk but Bruce was literally too stupid to even listen to offers.  Sheehan claimed it would have been the 2nd overall in 2017.  Off topic, I wonder if Kirks head is spinning now with his 3rd OC in 3 years.

Edited by RandyHolt
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15 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Nope. Not into that narrative at all. Jay signed an extension here. He had had plenty of time to see the incompetence here. In fact, we were in the middle of the ridiculous disfunction of the Cousins and McLovin episodes at the time. I get the there are only 32 of these jobs and it was a good amount of money, but he had gotten a big 5 year deal to start with and the extension was only 2 more years. Imagine what it would have meant for his reputation, and future job prospects if he had just said no to a new deal, let it expire and walk. He didn't really have to say anything just "differences of opinion on how to move forward as a team" or whatever. Everyone would have known he was bailing on Dan and Bruce, everyone would have understood, everyone would have respected him for it, and he would have been given a virtual free pass on whatever his record was here. But he chose to sign on for more of it. 

 

This is actually the post that stands out the most for me from yesterday.  Because you know if your being super honest you know there has to be some alignment between him and Bruce and Dan for him to ante up again for two more years after a supposed insufferable five prior.  After all the drama, and all the bull **** with this front office and their poor treatment of people he anted up again for more.   The Skins have made him a very well off man financially.

 

But it also makes sense that he signed up for "more of it" because he could not conceive after two years of unbelievable bad luck in the injury department that he would be dealing with it again.  That would make any HC salty wouldn't it?   Here he is in OTA's mind you and out goes Reuben Foster in a non-contact drill for the year. Forget all the drama and opinions about acquiring him.  Then in a preseason game down goes Reed....again with yet another concussion.  He was supposedly in the best shape of his career, no pain, etc.   Then as the season starts in quick succession Guice is down........again, his preferred back.  He loses Allen his leader, from the supposed retooled stalwart D line that is going to make it happen. No not happening.

 

 And then out goes Dunbar and Moreau and there he is in the second game of the season already playing musical chairs in the secondary.

 

 And the narrative once again from the press are all the injuries on the Redskins.  This is why Gruden has an attitude when he faces the press.   It has nothing to do with his distaste for this organization or never would have resigned.  

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23 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

You all do realize he signed the extension in the winter of 2017, right?

 

A lot of BS and injuries since then, no?

Yeah there has been a succession of injuries.  That is my main point as to why Gruden appears so salty and cryptic in his responses to the press this year.

 

   It has nothing to do with a radical disconnect between him and Bruce or he would not have signed an extension, let alone the first contract.  The truth is Gruden has not been able to run the team the way he wants because of injuries, not because of a problem or a personal issue with FO.  That is my opinion.  

 

   Gruden had to know coming in from even the very beginning what was going on and it certainly did not bother him or he would not have signed the original contract, let alone an extension.  Am I missing something?  Because for him to sign that extension in the winter of 2017, I think in March, after all the drama that went down with McCloughan, and the fairly obvious realization that Cousin's was disgusted with this organization and was not going to sign here because of BA is a little strange.  I think Gruden was counting on his pet McCoy to come through.  But it was another injury. Setback after setback.  

 

 

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It’s been a long time since he signed that extension and a lot of crap has happened since then.  I can’t read the dudes mind nor do I think it really matters much, but it’s entirely possible that the place has exhausted him since that time.  Being head coach of the Redskins is like dog years.  Not sure why you would rule out Jay finally having had enough of the place.

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47 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It’s been a long time since he signed that extension and a lot of crap has happened since then.  I can’t read the dudes mind nor do I think it really matters much, but it’s entirely possible that the place has exhausted him since that time.  Being head coach of the Redskins is like dog years.  Not sure why you would rule out Jay finally having had enough of the place.

I mean it is not like the first four years weren't a circus either.  And I am not saying that he isn't fed up.  The injuries in and of themselves are pretty damn demoralizing not just for him, and the players, but for us as fans.

 

There have been a number of insinuations that this FO has been somehow blocking Jay.  And the point is Jay knew what he was in by the time he signed the extension. You could leave it at that.  Much drama and bull **** had already gone down.

 

  He worked well IMO with a real GM, however character flawed he was, in SM.  And subsequently the meddling BA and Dan.   I mean wasn't it Williams the one that said they would choose the starting QB as a group for this year?   That is a HC's job isn't it?

 

Jay has had enough because of the injuries have been non stop now for over 2.5 years.   I just do not see how anyone could not see it any other way at this point.  His main guys are injured again.  

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33 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

 

Jay has had enough because of the injuries have been non stop now for over 2.5 years.   I just do not see how anyone could not see it any other way at this point.  His main guys are injured again.  

 

I'll start with there is no way to know one way or another.     So it's either purely guessing or relying on bits and nuggets from reporters who poke around with their sources at the FO.  Sure, it's logical that Jay is frustrated by the injuries.  It's also logical (especially since some who cover the team have said so) that he's worn down by the FO.   There could be multiple reasons for anybody's frustration. 

 

The idea that the premise that exists one year feels the same years later -- I get the logic of it but human nature doesn't always operate that way.  I've never been divorced but I have friends who are.  In those cases, it's not like there was no friction early in the marriage.  Instead, they either thought they can work it out, it would dissipate, or just the nature of it just piling up over time made it feel worse. 

 

To me that's perfectly logically with Jay.   If people want to say he took the money anyway so he made that bed -- fine, I get that.  Give me 10 million dollars and I'll deal with all the dysfunction you can throw at me. .  😀  Having said that it makes perfect sense that someone can wear you down after a longer sample size than earlier in the ball game.   Also different people have different breaking points.  Some people are high strung and are easily set off.  Some people are more laid back and it takes longer to find that breaking point. 

 

The picture some are painting is that Jay is wearing down some from the FO stuff.  I can relate from my own example (apples to oranges to this obviously) where yeah I got more tired of crazy office politics the longer I dealt with it.  It didn't feel exactly the same at every turn.   4 incidents of something didn't feel the same as 8 incidents of it. 

 

The only reason why I think the subject has any relevance has nothing to do with Jay.  But to me it's about the sample size for Dan has gotten much bigger now.   And I think he got an undeserved reprieve (I am guilty of giving him a reprieve back then, too) by many after his last firing.  Shanny's departure was partly blamed by many on Shanny himself.  I recall some national reporters even trashing Shanny's character then and saying his behavior will impinge on his ability to get another job.  

 

ESPN was running segments about how Shanny got in RG3's way, he helped get him injured, etc.  And now with Shanny gone, RG3 should be better, etc.  In retrospect, that seems funny because over time that narrative has changed.  But in the heat of that battle during that time, it wasn't that clear that Dan was a villain in the battle with Shanny.    Now, it's a different story.   The Shanny departure hasn't aged well for Dan.  And if Jay leaves unhappy, too -- then it might not be as easy as the past for Dan to attract one of the top HC candidates. 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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I think the most telling part of our failure as an organization in the success of Sean McVay. It was Bruce Allen's job to have the foresight to promote/retain him over Gruden. It's Gruden's job to do better than McVay. Both our guys have failed miserably. The successful guy left. I think we need to come to the realization that until Allen, Gruden, and the often overlooked Tony Wyllie are no longer with the organization, it's all moot. If we're being truly honest, I think we all know the problem starts at the way top, but most aren't willing to do what it takes to change that.

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22 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

And if Jay leaves unhappy, too -- then it might not be as easy as the past for Dan to attract one of the top HC candidates. 

It’s unlikely, but it’s amazing what money can do.  And I’ve heard Dan himself is very persuasive. 

 

So you never know.  Though you’re probably right. 

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