Going Commando Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, thebluefood said: Anti-fascists, for the most part, are actually trying to address fascism on the streets and with direct action. That means dealing with fascist rallies but it also means volunteering with Food Not Bombs, starting community gardens for food sustainability, and organizing their work places. I've got buddies doing all of the above and more - putting their livelihoods and safety on the line to do it - not just writing #Resist on their Twitter feeds and relying on elected officials to do the work for them. Look, I commend them for volunteer work and wanting to make a difference in their communities. But antifa protesting is lawless and violent by nature and it is doing more harm than good. You don't beat fascism by fighting right wingers on the streets. You beat it by electing pro-democracy liberal candidates. And if socialists want more liberal candidates to vote for, then they need to join campaigns and run for office. Also don't give me some nonsense about how the Democrats are just as big of red-baiters as Republicans because of some **** that happened in 1934 or 1960. That is not at all the political reality today. Democrats are the only people in the country who will give a socialist the time of day. Republicans hate you and view you as scum. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 53 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said: One thing about Antifa that makes them tough to corral is that they are a very decentralized group. You're saying they operate in cells? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 2 hours ago, Bang said: Has fascism ever been defeated by non-violent means? ~Bang This isn't a war, this is political speech taking place within the confines of a stable democracy. Those guys in Venezuela also give a great deal of lip service to community, anti-capitalism, and hate the press covering their violence. I don't buy it in South American politics and I'm not buying it here. When Antifa is a hated offshoot, things are fine, they can be tolerated... but the press turning them into heroes is bad. Political groups that explicitly promote violence as a response to speech are bad. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Look, I commend them for volunteer work and wanting to make a difference in their communities. But antifa protesting is lawless and violent by nature and it is doing more harm than good. You don't beat fascism by fighting right wingers on the streets. You beat it by electing pro-democracy liberal candidates. And if socialists want more liberal candidates to vote for, then they need to join campaigns and run for office. Also don't give me some nonsense about how the Democrats are just as big of red-baiters as Republicans because of some **** that happened in 1934 or 1960. That is not at all the political reality today. Democrats are the only people in the country who will give a socialist the time of day. Republicans hate you and view you as scum. I appreciate the commendation. I'm sure we'll see you at the next tenants strike. Anti-Fascists have been beating fascism on the streets for nearly a century. Do you think Winston Churchill kept fascism from spreading across the UK? Do you think FDR and the Democrats alone kept the German-American Bund and Father Coughlin from becoming any more influential than they actually were? Do you think the French Resistance and the Left-Wing Partisans of the Spanish Civil War came about with the blessing of the State? It took everyday people, on the ground, confronting these folks and driving them out by any means necessary (which included clashes with the police and the military) to do that. They were there well before the state stood up and did something about it. I'm aware of how Republicans feel about me. I live in rural, Central Pennsylvania and I used to live in the heart of Trump Country in Eastern North Carolina. I meant it when I said I have friends who are risking their livelihood and safety just by organizing their workplaces and actually resisting the right-wing tide. They've been doxxed and threatened by neo-Confederates and others of their ilk. I haven't seen much from the Democratic Party - then or now - to indicate they care much for me or my friends or won't do everything in their power to keep Left-Wing candidates off the ballot. I'm not saying every bit of praxis Anti-Fascists participate in is necessarily productive at particular times but seeing dozens of rallies similar to the one we saw in Charlottesville cancelled after it became clear people were going to face them head on reconfirms what Leftists have been saying for generations: direct action gets the goods. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 12 minutes ago, thebluefood said: I'm not saying every bit of praxis Anti-Fascists participate in is necessarily productive at particular times but seeing dozens of rallies similar to the one we saw in Charlottesville cancelled after it became clear people were going to face them head on reconfirms what Leftists have been saying for generations: direct action gets the goods. What goods? Disrupting a peaceful rally of people that disagreed with them? Suppressing their political speech? The arbitrary destruction of public and private property? **** yes Winston Churchill and FDR stopped the spread of fascism across the UK and US. That was actually war. War against a genocidal fascist state. Fat lot of good a bunch of communists brawling Nazis in the streets of Munich in 1927 did to stop the rise of fascism in Germany. Like Destino said this is not war. There is no place for antifa's embrace of violence in civil society and the liberals who defend or make excuses for antifa show their ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 I don't agree with the violence and support arresting my anyone who committed it, but it's annoying that the actions of a few people are overshadowing the fact that thousands of people of various backgrounds and ages came together to peacefully counter the alt-right and racism. 4 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: What goods? Disrupting a peaceful rally of people that disagreed with them? Suppressing their political speech? The arbitrary destruction of public and private property? Was property destroyed? Reporters who mentioned the violence also said there was little sign of vandalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Destino said: This isn't a war, this is political speech taking place within the confines of a stable democracy. Those guys in Venezuela also give a great deal of lip service to community, anti-capitalism, and hate the press covering their violence. I don't buy it in South American politics and I'm not buying it here. When Antifa is a hated offshoot, things are fine, they can be tolerated... but the press turning them into heroes is bad. Political groups that explicitly promote violence as a response to speech are bad. Not yet. This is why i asked the question. To my knowledge, fascists and nazis don't just stop after talking, especially when all their talk is a constant call to action. And their actions are well documented. They have an annoying habit of putting their talk into action when given enough leeway to spread their hate. As far as I'm concerned, Nazis have proven through words and action that they are an existential threat to everyone who is not exactly like their notion of racial purity. They are a threat to any stable democracy, and frankly, referring to ours as such is getting a little dicey. Our democracy may very well have been attacked and destabilized by our greatest enemy, and they are clearly trying to push us into civil conflict, with the blessing and encouragement of the President. Plenty of people are goose stepping right on along to whatever their networks of bots says. Fascism deserves no voice. It should be fought and opposed every single time they open their mouths. ~Bang PS> I realize how extreme i may come off with this. I feel we are getting deep into extreme times.. you've known me for a long time on this site Destino, and you know this is something i've been squawking about for many-a-year.. mostly under the notion of the right wing media going totally over the deep end. I've been here for about 13 or so years now, and if we could go back and see my archive, it gets steadily more and more alarmed over where i have felt we were being pushed,, and here we are, at the precipice i have feared. Much of me wants to say it'll be alright, and that common sense will prevail, that our country can stand this, but it becomes increasingly harder to convince myself of this. FTR, i view "Antifa' much the same as i view the anarchists who show up to protest the world bank all the time and cause so much trouble. Many of them are likely the same sort of idealistic jackholes who want to rebel for the sake of it, with no other thought in mind except to bring down whichever power is in front of them. As an organization,i don't even know what Antifa is other than to know what the acronym stands for. , there's too many people trying to define them, and i can't really trust what any of them tell me. i do not agree with them or anyone causing violence in the streets.. but i'm afraid that ship has sailed, and there are group of wealthy people clapping themselves on the back and congratulating each other for creating the exact climate we're seeing. If Nazis are going to feel empowered, resistance and awareness better begin earlier than it has in the past. Edited August 28, 2017 by Bang 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 30 minutes ago, visionary said: Was property destroyed? Reporters who mentioned the violence also said there was little sign of vandalism. That's an antifa MO. They caused $100K in property damage at the first round of Berkley protests back in February. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 4 hours ago, Bang said: Has fascism ever been defeated by non-violent means? ~Bang there were fascist regimes in Spain, Chile, Argentina... and many others... most of them were outlasted, and cast out at the election boxes. (AND ... there was a ****-of-a lot higher ratio of fascists in the USA in the 20s and 30s than there is today. Non-violence and rationality won the day, here. It will again. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) Outlasting... waiting for Franco to die, for Pinochet to finally croak.. and everything that had to be endured while waiting? I don't think it's a fair trade. At all. It's worth fighting to prevent what they did. But as far as peacefully resisting, I'm all for it. I hope no one views what i'm writing as a decision to go out and be violent myself, or to say others should.. but there's a pretty clear line being drawn, swords are drawn and whether or not that choice exists is most often made outside those who want to be peaceful. ~Bang Edited August 28, 2017 by Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 this is how you beat fascism.... http://disinfo.com/2014/08/russia-wants-bulgarians-stop-vandalizing-soviet-monuments-look-like-american-superheroes/ Quote Russia Wants Bulgarians to Stop Vandalizing Soviet Monuments To Look Like American Superheroes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 I always thought the Russians used their cold winters to defeat fascists. By starving them to death. Apparently..non-violently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) heh Edited August 28, 2017 by visionary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 1 minute ago, visionary said: Too bad he faked it. http://www.denverpost.com/2017/08/28/denver-area-arrest-neo-nazi-stabbing/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: Too bad he faked it. http://www.denverpost.com/2017/08/28/denver-area-arrest-neo-nazi-stabbing/ I was curious to see some reactions before revealing that. Oh well. Edited August 28, 2017 by visionary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 1 hour ago, visionary said: I don't agree with the violence and support arresting my anyone who committed it, but it's annoying that the actions of a few people are overshadowing the fact that thousands of people of various backgrounds and ages came together to peacefully counter the alt-right and racism. That's what's so counterproductive about antifa. Their presence and actions delegitimize left wing protest. Nonviolent protest works. Peaceful civil disobedience works. It has accomplished great things in history. But people have to see the protesters as righteous. To see themselves and their family members in the faces of the protesters and sympathize with and relate to them. This is why liberals must disavow antifa and adhere to principled non-violent protest. 19 minutes ago, mcsluggo said: this is how you beat fascism.... Fake news. Joker is a villain. Although I do accept Santa Claus and Ronald McDonald as both American and super heroes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) Sure. In a perfect world. But Charlottesville was full of non violent peaceful protests and it led to an attack by the alt right that killed people and the leader of the US saying that both sides were at fault. I suspect that the days of peaceful protests being effective against the alt right are largely over. Edited August 28, 2017 by The Evil Genius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Bang said: If Nazis are going to feel empowered, resistance and awareness better begin earlier than it has in the past. This is what I hope everyone here understands. Think of the factors it would take to make this into an actual war. Then consider how many of those factors you came up with we actually have going for us in the moment. People that believe they are oppressed - check Zero leadership - check YUGE racial discriminatory practices and fissures - check Violence - check Oh and the worst president in American history - check Eventually the **** is going to hit the fan. I dont want to be one of these people that sat there and watched it thinking it could never happen. Its alot like all those people who didnt vote because there was NO WAY people would make Donald Trump president. Then it happened. 10 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Nonviolent protest works. Peaceful civil disobedience works. It has accomplished great things in history. But people have to see the protesters as righteous. To see themselves and their family members in the faces of the protesters and sympathize with and relate to them. Only works if you have some kind of morality in leadership. We have literally none. You president is sooner to call counter protesters animals than Americans right now. You think people are going to see these animals as righteous? We are past that point. Even if Antifa went away TODAY FOREVER do you really think Trump would stop using that name? Or BLM? Or Liberals? It all means the same thing now. The other team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornaSkinsFan83 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 7 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Fake news. Joker is a villain. Although I do accept Santa Claus and Ronald McDonald as both American and super heroes. Btw i agree that violence for the sake of violence is stupid and entirely counterproductive (don't get me started on the vandalism). But I don't think you should be lining up to get canned at the salt pits ala Gandhi or stomped out on the bridge ala MLK and Co. This ain't that type of fight. I like what I've been personally doing. Just going to as many rallies as I can and not taking **** from anyone but never instigating direct confrontations. You remember when we were younger and you'd always tried to get the other person to swing first. Like once that happened you were free to do anything? Of course both kids would get suspended no matter who threw first but that mindset was always there. Like it was a legal loophole for violence or something. It's stupid but I think that's the way to play it here. Confront, don't instigate and defend don't escalate. No weapons but be strong. This isn't the mid 20th Century and this isn't a huge empire canning half-naked Indians. Empathy is a smaller factor. You have to stand up for yourself but you can't give them ammunition to use against you in their propaganda. It's a fine line to walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: Sure. In a perfect world. But Charlottesville was full of non violent peaceful protests and it led to an attack by the alt right that killed people and the leader of the US saying that both sides were at fault. I suspect that the days of peaceful protests being effective against the alt right are largely over. Innocent people are always the ones who suffer most in violent conflict. Left wingers radicalizing and embracing violence won't change that. The law will take care of James Fields. The law will take care of the idiot who opened fire at the counterprotesters. Left wing protesters don't need to be fighting with alt righters in the streets. When they do, they abandon any pretense at having the moral high ground. I can't believe we need to legislate the value and righteousness of non-violent protest again in 2017. The point of principles is to have a guide in difficult times. Times when you can't trust your own emotions and the mob mentality is threatening to take over. It would be a tragedy for the left to abandon our principles over a piece of **** like Trump or the alt right virgin brigade who support him. Also left wing protesters aren't appealing to alt right protesters with their demonstrations. They're appealing to the vast un-radicalized, un-activated public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Llevron said: This is what I hope everyone here understands. Think of the factors it would take to make this into an actual war. Then consider how many of those factors you came up with we actually have going for us in the moment. People that believe they are oppressed - check Zero leadership - check YUGE racial discriminatory practices and fissures - check Violence - check Oh and the worst president in American history - check Eventually the **** is going to hit the fan. I dont want to be one of these people that sat there and watched it thinking it could never happen. Its alot like all those people who didnt vote because there was NO WAY people would make Donald Trump president. Then it happened. And a distinctly divided american public, with one side having been spoonfed lies for 2 decades about how everything they hold dear being stolen from them. "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." - Hermann Goring. Sound familiar? God, Christmas, your job, your constitution, your rights, your country, there's a 'war" on it all the time according to the right media for the last 20 ****ing years. The Nazi playbook, and roughly a third of the country buys it every goose step of the way. Divided,.. conquered? We'll see. Given what we have seen and what we know, in my opinion it's a fool who doesn't believe it's the goal. ~Bang Edited August 28, 2017 by Bang 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, BornaSkinsFan83 said: Btw i agree that violence for the sake of violence is stupid and entirely counterproductive (don't get me started on the vandalism). But I don't think you should be lining up to get canned at the salt pits ala Gandhi or stomped out on the bridge ala MLK and Co. This ain't that type of fight. I like what I've been personally doing. Just going to as many rallies as I can and not taking **** from anyone but never instigating direct confrontations. You remember when we were younger and you'd always tried to get the other person to swing first. Like once that happened you were free to do anything? Of course both kids would get suspended no matter who threw first but that mindset was always there. Like it was a legal loophole for violence or something. It's stupid but I think that's the way to play it here. Confront, don't instigate and defend don't escalate. No weapons but be strong. This isn't the mid 20th Century and this isn't a huge empire canning half-naked Indians. Empathy is a smaller factor. You have to stand up for yourself but you can't give them ammunition to use against you in their propaganda. It's a fine line to walk. That must have been a hell of a DC-Marvel crossover lol. Everyone has the right to defend themselves with the reasonable application of force. If you're demonstrating and someone comes up and decks you, then I have no issue with people fighting back until they're out of danger. But these clashes too easily become mobs and most people just lose control and start swinging and no one can tell who is defending themselves and who is the aggressor. A protester must always keep in mind that their true audience is NPR and PBS and CNN and the local network news affiliates. They must always be aware of how their actions will translate into the narrative that those sources spread. They have to stay disciplined. Ghandi and MLK were monstrously effective. What happened in Selma generated a ton of empathy for MLK's movement in a time where white empathy for blacks was very hard to generate. I think we still need the empathy of the general because, while they might not be as hostile to progressive causes as they were in the 60's, they are largely indifferent. God, TBH getting caned in the streets by deranged Trump supporters would mobilize the public as well as anything else that could happen during a protest. Edited August 28, 2017 by stevemcqueen1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) 19 hours ago, mcsluggo said: this is how you beat fascism.... http://disinfo.com/2014/08/russia-wants-bulgarians-stop-vandalizing-soviet-monuments-look-like-american-superheroes/ Holy ****, I've been to that monument! I spent 4 lovely days in Sofia. A monument to eastern European architecture. Literally the grayest city ever. Edited August 29, 2017 by Popeman38 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 On 8/14/2017 at 10:52 AM, visionary said: Happened to be going back through this thread... isn't the dude on the right (in the lower pic) the guy they arrested for firing his weapon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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