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Nazis showing up at places uninvited.

No Excuses

By No Excuses
in The Tailgate

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mcsluggo

mcsluggo

Posted
Posted
Just now, Gamebreaker said:

 

I made a statement about the system, SOMEHOW in order for my statement to be valid, TO YOU, I need to have a ****ing thesis on it's improvements. If something is bad, you don't need to have a detailed plan ready to go in order to acknowledge that it's bad. And at no point, did the person I was speaking to make any counter arguments for the system beyond, "**** is worse everywhere else." So please, take your BS "you're naive and childish" argument and shove it up your own ass. The system does not work. Period. Sorry if that hurt your precious feelings. No wait, I'm not sorry. Not even a little bit. 

 

the justice system is not the problem.   the problem is the underlying racism and inequality in our society.   

 

give me even a hint of a glimmer of a suggestion of a justice system that solves THOSE problems? (that exist outside of the justice system)

 

 

(and i had already removed all the "naive" and "childish" adjectives before your response.... sorry for throwing that kerosene onto an already too hot fire)   

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Gamebreaker

Gamebreaker

Posted
Posted
58 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

 

the justice system is not the problem.   the problem is the underlying racism and inequality in our society.   

 

give me even a hint of a glimmer of a suggestion of a justice system that solves THOSE problems? (that exist outside of the justice system)

 

 

(and i had already removed all the "naive" and "childish" adjectives before your response.... sorry for throwing that kerosene onto an already too hot fire)   

 

Understood on the edit. Sorry for getting heated( seriously this time lol). 

 

Our Justice system can't solve racism and inequality, but it doesn't have to serve them either. Since you'd like me to provide potential solutions, here are some I feel need to be implemented based off the issues I raised in this thread: 

 

- removal or restructuring of the bail system. Currently, if you're wealthy you have no issues. If you're poor, you're screwed. The change should be if you are charged with a violent crime you don't get bail. If it isn't a violent crime then you aren't sitting in jail while your life falls apart. If you aren't charged with a violent crime but you miss a court date, your pending freedom is revoked and you sit in jail until your case is resolved. This won't help defendants who may not have committed the violent crime they're accused of, but it does stop the wealthy from using their money to make their situation easier, and it helps a poor person attempt to keep their life together through the process. 

 

- Underfunding Public Defenders should be met with fines strong enough to force a state/county to reconsider ignoring their needs. I don't know how many cases is too much for one lawyer, but whatever number it is should be met with serious repercussions for the state/county if it is exceeded. I'm talking cases being thrown out. If a court has to potentially throw out a case, I'm sure the state/county will make sure they pay PDs well enough to support the need. Furthermore, if a PD asks for a DNA test for their client, or any other request that could exonerate them, the case should not go forward until those requests are satisfied. 

 

Additionally: 

- Brady violations should suspend a prosecutors license immediately, pending further chance to be disbarred. Prosecutors are committing Brady violations regularly. The tampering of and withholding of evidence has got to stop. This should already been happening, but it isn't enforced. The only way you can get these prosecutors in line is make them understand there are real consequences for their actions. 

 

My suggestions aren't perfect, but IMO, they would be an improvement over what we already have. 

 

 

 

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mcsluggo

mcsluggo

Posted
Posted
38 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

Understood on the edit. Sorry for getting heated( seriously this time lol). 

 

Our Justice system can't solve racism and inequality, but it doesn't have to serve them either. Since you'd like me to provide potential solutions, here are some I feel need to be implemented based off the issues I raised in this thread: 

 

1- removal or restructuring of the bail system. Currently, if you're wealthy you have no issues. If you're poor, you're screwed. The change should be if you are charged with a violent crime you don't get bail. If it isn't a violent crime then you aren't sitting in jail while your life falls apart. If you aren't charged with a violent crime but you miss a court date, your pending freedom is revoked and you sit in jail until your case is resolved. This won't help defendants who may not have committed the violent crime they're accused of, but it does stop the wealthy from using their money to make their situation easier, and it helps a poor person attempt to keep their life together through the process. 

 

2- Underfunding Public Defenders should be met with fines strong enough to force a state/county to reconsider ignoring their needs. I don't know how many cases is too much for one lawyer, but whatever number it is should be met with serious repercussions for the state/county if it is exceeded. I'm talking cases being thrown out. If a court has to potentially throw out a case, I'm sure the state/county will make sure they pay PDs well enough to support the need. Furthermore, if a PD asks for a DNA test for their client, or any other request that could exonerate them, the case should not go forward until those requests are satisfied. 

 

Additionally: 

3- Brady violations should suspend a prosecutors license immediately, pending further chance to be disbarred. Prosecutors are committing Brady violations regularly. The tampering of and withholding of evidence has got to stop. This should already been happening, but it isn't enforced. The only way you can get these prosecutors in line is make them understand there are real consequences for their actions. 

 

My suggestions aren't perfect, but IMO, they would be an improvement over what we already have. 

 

these are the types of suggestions i can get behind !   (incrementalism, baby!)

 

I can get behind #1 right away.   release awaiting trial should be dependent upon the charges, and legal penalties (rather than civil/monetary) of not appearing in court also dependent upon the charges.    Also, we have e-tracking technology now ... that combined with additional jail time if convicted should replace the "skin in the game"  that the bail was supposed to approximate.   (as if $50k for a bazillionaire was the the same as $50k for a share-cropper)  

 

2-   i have no idea how public defenders are funded.... ?   but if the state is paying for both prosecution and defense, and paying much more to one side.  that is obviously a problem.    

 

3-  I don't think you should suspend prior to some sort of a guilty finding (such as disbarment)... but i think clearly evidence handling and the prosecution team should be firewalled from each other.   More so than they generally are today.    

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LadySkinsFan

LadySkinsFan

Posted
Posted

Get the private companies out of the prison business. 

 

They don't make money unless the beds are filled. The bottom line is more important than educating prisoners, preparing them for life outside. 

 

Look at the whole system and consider reducing certain crimes as felonies and reclassify them as misdemeanors. Violent crimes get longer incarceration as do white collar crimes such as money laundering, ponzi schemes, so on.

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Popeman38

Popeman38

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Gamebreaker said:

Understood on the edit. Sorry for getting heated( seriously this time lol). 

 

Our Justice system can't solve racism and inequality, but it doesn't have to serve them either. Since you'd like me to provide potential solutions, here are some I feel need to be implemented based off the issues I raised in this thread: 

 

- removal or restructuring of the bail system. Currently, if you're wealthy you have no issues. If you're poor, you're screwed. The change should be if you are charged with a violent crime you don't get bail. If it isn't a violent crime then you aren't sitting in jail while your life falls apart. If you aren't charged with a violent crime but you miss a court date, your pending freedom is revoked and you sit in jail until your case is resolved. This won't help defendants who may not have committed the violent crime they're accused of, but it does stop the wealthy from using their money to make their situation easier, and it helps a poor person attempt to keep their life together through the process. 

 

- Underfunding Public Defenders should be met with fines strong enough to force a state/county to reconsider ignoring their needs. I don't know how many cases is too much for one lawyer, but whatever number it is should be met with serious repercussions for the state/county if it is exceeded. I'm talking cases being thrown out. If a court has to potentially throw out a case, I'm sure the state/county will make sure they pay PDs well enough to support the need. Furthermore, if a PD asks for a DNA test for their client, or any other request that could exonerate them, the case should not go forward until those requests are satisfied. 

 

Additionally: 

- Brady violations should suspend a prosecutors license immediately, pending further chance to be disbarred. Prosecutors are committing Brady violations regularly. The tampering of and withholding of evidence has got to stop. This should already been happening, but it isn't enforced. The only way you can get these prosecutors in line is make them understand there are real consequences for their actions. 

 

My suggestions aren't perfect, but IMO, they would be an improvement over what we already have. 

Ok, good start.  Now lets go further and really aim to make the system fair.  

 

  1. Misdemeanors, you get booked (printed and processed), a summons to appear in court, and released.  No holding a person for 3 days for a simple issue. If the charge isn't serious enough to rise to felony, there is ZERO reason for you to spend a single night in jail.
  2. Draw a line for weight, and if you don't surpass that weight in weed, you get a ticket and your weed confiscated (in states it ain't legal). Under that weight ain't even a ticket.
  3. For non-violent felonies, bail is a reasonable amount (like $1000, so you can bond out on $100).  I have a hard time for people charged with even violent felonies losing their freedom before conviction - maybe they get "bail" in the form of surrendering passport, signing a binding agreement not to leave the area (state if possible, but some cities are right on the border so say a 100 mile diameter), wearing a ankle monitor tied to home that alerts outside approved area. Violate terms, you sit in jail until trial.
  4. Law firms should be required to perform a certain number of hours of public defending in order to remain licensed. This will assist in easing the burden on public defenders.
  5. Pay public defenders a decent lawyers salary
  6. Tie public defender funding to population and/or crime density statistics
  7. For any non-violent crime, if a public defender cannot represent you within a set time, the charges will be reduced or dismissed (felony reduced to misdemeanor, misdemeanors dismissed. You can't charge a person with a crime and then not allow them the right to a speedy trial.
  8. Sentence reform: there are certain crimes you have to spend a long time in prison (e.g. murder, rape), but long time needs to be redefined. 20 years? This has to be tied to the next bullet
  9. Rehabilitation - You must take classes and work in jail (pay should be min wage). Classes will focus on helping you rehabilitate. Work should focus on making you see what crime does to people (you murder someone, you clean crime scenes; rape, you assist in a rape crisis center and learn of the psychological damage you inflict). Release should be to a support system with a means to earn a living, leading to the next bullet
  10. Remove the felon announcement requirement for work - IF you complete your rehabilitation and remain out for X amount of time in the above support system.
  11. Police training should require at minimum two years (applicants should have an associates in criminal justice, social sciences, law, or some other crime-related field). No one has a right to be a cop...

 

These are just my initial thoughts, I could go on for a while.  Maybe we should have a criminal justice reform thread.

Edited by Popeman38
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LadySkinsFan

LadySkinsFan

Posted
Posted (edited)

Wow, amazing story. What got me was this quote from the young man who wrote the hate graffiti.

 

Craig lifted Abraham up. He made him feel good about himself. A history buff, Craig liked to use Hitler as an example, Abraham said.

 

"He said, 'I understand Hitler did bad things, but on the other side of the coin he is the shining example of why no one can ever say that one man can't change the world,'" Abraham recounted. "'He was just one man from a broken country that was being destroyed by its debts, and he turned it into the most formidable fighting force and almost took over the world.'"

 

This quote is telling. People with low self esteem are looking to powerful figures to emulate. What's missing is the lessons that these powerful figures like Hitler are immoral, eventually brought their country down, impoverished their citizens, and so on. And they lost. People who latch onto this stuff forget the losing part, they only see the power part. 

 

We as a society haven't done a good enough job of educating our young about this, that the Leni Riefenstahl films of Hitler and the Nazis were propaganda. We don't teach what propaganda is, because our society's advertising is in essence propaganda. It's selling products, lifestyle, any number of concepts. Our political campaigns are nothing more than propaganda, and we are not taught nor do we teach how to distinguish between reality and outrageous promises. 

 

It wouldn't surprise me that Trump has studied Nazi propaganda. I have, and I have been preaching for years that the Republicans use propaganda the best. I think that Democrats try to be more realistic. But both parties are beholden to corporate and wealthy interests, to the detriment of We the People.

Edited by LadySkinsFan
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LD0506

LD0506

Posted
Posted

Here's the thing with all their tough guy talk about freedom of speech, if you REALLY believe that **** the way you claim, you show the **** up. MLK and his congregation really believed, they showed up when their "opposition" had gas, clubs, dogs and firehoses, and were willing to use them to excess, but they still showed up. The polo-n-tiki torch crowd are a'scairt of stepping in dog****? That's it, that's where your principles break down, scraping a shoe? **** you poser assholes, STFU since you obviously don't believe one bit of your alt-right cosplay.

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Fan since a Fetus

Fan since a Fetus

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, Cooked Crack said:

That's nuts that a guy can shoot his gun at counter protestors in public and the police so noting. The police failed to do their jobs that day. Let some antifa member shoot a gun at people during a protest and we'd never stop hearing it from this President and Fox.

 

This really pissed me off. At first I couldn't believe they didn't arrest this guy right there on the spot because he was obviously a danger to everyone there. My wife brought up the point that maybe the cops were taking the safe route because they didn't want innocent people to get caught in a crossfire. Especially if the supremacists all had guns and decided to stick up for their racist partner. They have him on camera and I really hope we hear about him getting arrested. There is no reason he shouldn't be.

 

He needs to do prison time and have his gun license revoked if he has one,

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skinsmarydu

skinsmarydu

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, LD0506 said:

STFU since you obviously don't believe one bit of your alt-right cosplay.

I worked with a guy in a couple different places, he's got an SS tattoo...one night way back we were drinking in a bar down the street after work, and drunk ol' me double-dog-dared him to walk over to a table of black guys and call 'em what he'd just called 'em to me...needless to say, he's a wimp.:kickcan:But I was all in his face with "see, you don't even believe your own bull**** or you'd back it up"...not one of my finer moments, but I made a point.

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