The 2017 Training Camp Discussion Thread

[Califan007 The Constipated]

"Running back Keith Marshall is being carted off the field. He injured his right knee at the end off run in full-team drills. Trainers placed a brace on his leg. Marshall missed last season with a torn ACL." - Keim

 

JP Finlay‏Verified account @JPFinlayCSN

Breeland down. Being attended to by trainers. Looks like a cramp though.

 

 

John Keim‏Verified account @john_keim

the ACL was in college. Elbow last year.

[TheGreek1973]

Oh man I had high hopes of Keith Marshall.  Gruden put the curse on him by signaling him out as flashing.

[bobandweave]

19 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

I'm telling you, Fantasy tip of the decade: take Pryor early and dance all over the graves of your victims as you waltz to the championship . 

 

You probably heard it somewhere else first but you also heard it here! 

 

Okay going to voice a concern I have about this take. I don't know if yours was a hot one or not or this one is but with that said Pryor to me is confusing. Here's why

 

Pryor was let go from the Browns after becoming an unsuspected breakout player last season. The Browns decided to spend it's money not on Pryor but rather on a multi year deal for Kenny Britt this off season.  As a team the Cleveland Browns in 2017 are missing the third most passing targets from 2016 season in the league so have serious needs for pass catchers. They inked Britt to a 4 year, 32 million dollar deal. Pryor signed with us for one season at 6 million. 

 

On paper comparing the two and this is in no order of significance its scary how similar the two guys are:

 

Pryor is taller by an inch (6'4 vs 6'3)

Pryor is younger in age but age is relative. Britt has been in the league 2 more seasons then Pryor so Britt playing wise is much older

Pryor had more yards in 16 but both men were over 1000 and separated by only 5 yards

Pryor had more 100 yard games in 16 by a single game

Britt had more TDs but only by a single TD

 

So on paper they are extremely similar players but the age and experience favors Britt but with that comes the toll this sport game has on a persons body. Knowing this, it makes me wonder why the Browns did not pick Pryor over Britt? With such a young team you would think Pryor would have been the more attractive player to them. Yet they choose Britt. Why?

 

Is there something about Pryor we aren't seeing yet that the Browns know about him? Does he have issues we will see this year we just don't know about yet? Did the Browns just value experience over youth, which kind of flies in the face of the money ball they have been playing?

 

In terms of fantasy points per start Pryor was 24th in the league last year for WR's averaging 13.34 points per game versus Britt being WR28 who averaged 13.08 points per game. In fantasy so far I have been targeting Britt and not Pryor personally because of the perceived value I see in these two men. Britt's going in round 11 while Pryor's costing you a 3rd round pick according to ADP data. I wonder if everyone is just drafting Pryor now based solely on his perceived ceiling and ignoring Britt because of his age. Going by value alone I'd rather draft Britt over Pryor. 

 

Not to freak anyone out with this post. I am cautious about Pryor for these reasons. And don't mind throwing out a take on someone everyone can get late in drafts who was extremely similar but costs so much less. In real life I do hope that Pryor lives up to expectations. I just don't know yet why the Browns choose Britt over him

 

 

 

[Riggo'sRangers]

6 minutes ago, TheGreek1973 said:

Oh man I had high hopes of Keith Marshall.  Gruden put the curse on him by signaling him out as flashing.

I had hopes, but not high ones, for Keith.  It's a shame.  Monumental talent, but maybe not physically made to play football.  I hope that makes sense.  It is an unbelievably brutal game.  I know this all too well.  I hope he is ok. Hail

[Momma There Goes That Man]

1 minute ago, bobandweave said:

Okay going to voice a concern I have about this take. I don't know if it's a hot one or not, with that said Pryor to me is confusing. Here's why

 

I'm not going to be concerned becshee the Browns made a terrible decision. In other news, the sun is going to come up tomorrow. 

 

Also, Pryor did that last year with basically 0 other offensive threats and the carousel of sadness that is the Browns QB situation. Now he's going to a good-great QB in a pass happy offensive where he has multiple other threats to take the D's attention. 

 

He is going to explode. And he's still coming into form at the position so it's hard to believe he won't get even better 

[TheGreek1973]

9 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

Not to freak anyone out with this post. I am cautious about Pryor for these reasons. And don't mind throwing out a take on someone everyone can get late in drafts who was extremely similar but costs so much less. In real life I do hope that Pryor lives up to expectations. I just don't know yet why the Browns choose Britt over him

Man am I missing something with your post?  The Browns did offer a one year deal I believe for more money than us.  Also Pryor last year was his first ever season playing WR.  Again no one knows how good he can get but if he can do what he did last year, first time ever playing the position with the QBs the Browns had, we all have to feel good about him right?

[bobandweave]

2 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

I'm not going to be concerned becshee the Browns made a terrible decision. In other news, the sun is going to come up tomorrow.  

 

There are teams in the league that get laughed at about every decision they make when it's untrue to think they always make the wrong ones. Redskins are one such team. The Browns are another. I personally subscribe to neither points of view. In fact I have really liked the decisions the Browns have made this season. Building an offensive line that is top 10 in the league. Not wasting the top pick in the draft on one of these QBs (I personally see Cody Kessler as having a job in the NFL for the next decade), improving the defense and committing to the running game. The only thing the Browns did this offseason which makes me scratch my head was choosing Britt over Pryor. 

 

Also, Pryor did that last year with basically 0 other offensive threats and the carousel of sadness that is the Browns QB situation.

 

Actually one of the top five fast rising fantasy players this year is Isiah Crowell. Last season he was 15th in the league in yards, had a 4.8 ypc average high number because he had two rushes of 60+ yards to his credit and caught 40 passes. This was an offensive weapon they had last year and fantasy players see this now and are drafting him in the 3rd or 2nd rounds this year. The Browns have an extremely accurate QB in Cody Kessler playing now. I know it's easy to rely on "It's the Browns they are stupid" point of view, but again I don't personally do that. 

 

2 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

 Now he's going to a good-great QB in a pass happy offensive where he has multiple other threats to take the D's attention. 

 

He is going to explode. And he's still coming into form at the position so it's hard to believe he won't get even better 

 

That makes the decision to let Pryor go even harder to understand for me. We know what Kenny Britt can do. We don't know yet what Pryor's ceiling is. The Browns would have thought the same as would every other team in the league needing a receiver yet he came here for cheap. Maybe they tried to sign Pryor and just couldn't. Maybe Pryor told the entire league he was coming here and no where else? I don't really know but something smells fishy to me about Pryor and I'm being hesitant with him. In a league where a guy who will be 31 years old by game one like Pierre Garcon can get paid 16 million in year one of a multi year deal someone who's coming into form and will get better is only making 6 million? This makes sense to everyone? 

 

[bobandweave]

5 minutes ago, TheGreek1973 said:

Man am I missing something with your post?  The Browns did offer a one year deal I believe for more money than us.  Also Pryor last year was his first ever season playing WR.  Again no one knows how good he can get but if he can do what he did last year, first time ever playing the position with the QBs the Browns had, we all have to feel good about him right?

 

I was coming at this from the point of view of drafting Pryor in fantasy which was what I quoted. I was throwing out an opinion on a similar yet forgotten player to Pryor that costs much less then Pryor and asking why the Browns didn't just sign Pryor in the first place

 

I did not know that the Browns offered him more money then us and he wouldn't sign with them. That most likely explains why they didn't sign him and went with Britt instead. Makes sense to me now. The Browns had to sign some receivers, Pryor wouldn't sign, so they went with Britt. Very logical. 

 

Had I known that I wouldn't have posted that and now feel silly but eh free fantasy advice isn't terrible I guess lol. Draft Kenny Britt in the 11th. Still not sure Pryor in the 3rd is good value though. Need to see more but I thank you for setting me straight about this

[TheGreek1973]

5 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

I was coming at this from the point of view of drafting Pryor in fantasy which was what I quoted. I was throwing out an opinion on a similar yet forgotten player to Pryor that costs much less then Pryor and asking why the Browns didn't just sign Pryor in the first place

 

I did not know that the Browns offered him more money then us and he wouldn't sign with them. That most likely explains why they didn't sign him and went with Britt instead. Makes sense to me now. The Browns had to sign some receivers, Pryor wouldn't sign, so they went with Britt. Very logical. 

 

Had I known that I wouldn't have posted that and now feel silly but eh free fantasy advice isn't terrible I guess lol. Draft Kenny Britt in the 11th. Still not sure Pryor in the 3rd is good value though. Need to see more but I thank you for setting me straight about this

Not a problem, here looks like the offered him very similar deal like Britt.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/03/terrelle_pryor_came_back_to_th.html

[bobandweave]

3 minutes ago, TheGreek1973 said:

Not a problem, here looks like the offered him very similar deal like Britt.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/03/terrelle_pryor_came_back_to_th.html

 

Fantastic article, thank you it explains it all. Everyone forget my posts and read this. Well worth it

[Veryoldschool]

On 7/27/2017 at 9:36 PM, RandyHolt said:

I wonder if its possible that Chase beats out Long at C, and Long slides back to guard.

 

Overall I am happy with Long, but think we need to improve our run blocking.  Trent Brandon and Moses are what they are. Either new need personnel, or new techniques / play calls. Or back ha.

 

Are we still mostly zone blocking, or are we more power now? I remember Jay inheriting Mikes line saying he wants power but if it aint broke don't fix it.

 

The run blocking is broken, they don't even to run on short yardage or close to end zone.  

[DC9]

Most  teams can run zone, it's easier cause almost all linemen these days are athletic.

 

It's harder to run power because most colleges run either inside or outside zone with their spreads... just like QBs not having good footwork when they first come in the league... it takes time.

 

Most of our PA in Jay's offense is off of power, which usually allows you to throw those deeper routes.  Where as with Shanny's offense it was bootleg off of outside zone and the routes were horizontal.

 

We'll see how much that's changed up with DJax gone and a basketball team for a receiving corps.  But he ran the same stuff in Cincy and yes, most of the time it was the LG ****ting the bed on the blocking assignment.  Though not always.

[RandyHolt]

39 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

The run blocking is broken, they don't even to run on short yardage or close to end zone.  

 

I think we average about 1 QB sneak per year, over the past 8 or so.  That says a lot about coaches knowing about our lack of push.  But it is not just players; play calling can be better. We don't have to show run to run.

 

Meanwhile, Brady with a TE at guard can consistently get 4 yard QB sneaks, in part because he has the freedom to do it via quick snap and has the field spread out. We line up all slow and show heavy jumbo and with 1 sec left on the play clock sneak, and fail. Same thing once we get near the goal line.

 

It kills me that we don't go play action out of heavy jumbo much more than we do, since we can't run out of it. That is one of my favorite all time plays, bring out a bunch of TEs, hidden among them are hands. Target that young stiff hip LB. The overly aggressive D of the modern era are SO ripe to be exploited in short yardage. We just need to try.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Doctson still shining...

 

"Best play of the day: Receiver Josh Doctson fooled corner Josh Norman to break wide open for a long touchdown catch. But that wasn't as impressive as Doctson's one-handed grab over corner Dashaun Phillips in a one-on-one drill. Doctson jumped and reached back over Phillips and caught the pass with his right hand." - Keim

[Hail2theSkins24]

What is Doctson's ceiling?

[arftech]

5 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

Agreed even before the injuries. Howard changes our offense much more than Allen changes our defense IMO. 

How so?  The problem is the defense and now we have a potential stud at a critical position of need.  You had to throw that IMO part in there.

[Conn]

1 minute ago, Hail2theSkins24 said:

What is Doctson's ceiling?

 

He's 6'2" with a 41" vertical, so I assume his ceilings have to be pretty high.

[XxSpearheadxX]

2 hours ago, TheGreek1973 said:

Oh man I had high hopes of Keith Marshall.  Gruden put the curse on him by signaling him out as flashing.

Everyone has had high hopes on him since he was in high school.  I knew it wasn't going to happen though. He also was chubby AF at OTAs. Should have been an olympic sprinter. 

19 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

He's 6'2" with a 41" vertical, so I assume his ceilings have to be pretty high.

Look through NBA draft profiles and see how rare a 41 inch vertical is, let alone combined with the coordination, instincts and hand skills to do something with it. Josh Doctson is a freak. 

[nemocystem]

19 minutes ago, Hail2theSkins24 said:

What is Doctson's ceiling?

depends on who you talk to.  had him rated as the best WR in his draft, & we're seeing some of that on display already.  i also think that being able to sit, & learn more about the offense, & route-running upon his return/trying to stay active/in-shape is going to put him right into the fold from the start of this season.  

 

i would say his talent puts him somewhere between Marquez Colston, & Larry Fitzgerald.  really depends on his work ethic, which seems fantastic, as to whether he can reach/maintain that level of success.  but he already runs smooth routes, excels at creating separation at the stem of his routes, & catches with his hands, has a super vertical, & wins 50/50 balls.  the only other thing keeping him down to Earth a bit could be his speed...but i don't think it will be an issue with the way he runs routes.  

 

he could look like a Dez Bryant type too...minus the attitude.  very similar on-field traits.

[Veryoldschool]

50 minutes ago, Hail2theSkins24 said:

What is Doctson's ceiling?

 

A bust in Canton like every other young player but he needs to make it on the field and be able to stay on the field to achieve it.  Hopefully he has trained well and resolved his hamstring issues.

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

 

I think we average about 1 QB sneak per year, over the past 8 or so.  That says a lot about coaches knowing about our lack of push.  But it is not just players; play calling can be better. We don't have to show run to run.

 

Meanwhile, Brady with a TE at guard can consistently get 4 yard QB sneaks, in part because he has the freedom to do it via quick snap and has the field spread out. We line up all slow and show heavy jumbo and with 1 sec left on the play clock sneak, and fail. Same thing once we get near the goal line.

 

It kills me that we don't go play action out of heavy jumbo much more than we do, since we can't run out of it. That is one of my favorite all time plays, bring out a bunch of TEs, hidden among them are hands. Target that young stiff hip LB. The overly aggressive D of the modern era are SO ripe to be exploited in short yardage. We just need to try.

 

The lack of a running game really hurt the Skins in the Red Zone.  Hopefully the bigger receivers will help also but teams that can't punch the ball in on the ground don't really deserve to win and don't win championships.  Hopefully we see some improvement in 2017.

[XxSpearheadxX]

26 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

The lack of a running game really hurt the Skins in the Red Zone.  

Exactly. Playaction is just a ****foot ballet before the dance if the defense isn't scared one bit of the run. 

[sjinhan]

3 hours ago, bobandweave said:

 

 

 

So on paper they are extremely similar players but the age and experience favors Britt but with that comes the toll this sport game has on a persons body. Knowing this, it makes me wonder why the Browns did not pick Pryor over Britt? With such a young team you would think Pryor would have been the more attractive player to them. Yet they choose Britt. Why?

 

Is there something about Pryor we aren't seeing yet that the Browns know about him? Does he have issues we will see this year we just don't know about yet? Did the Browns just value experience over youth, which kind of flies in the face of the money ball they have been playing?

 

 

The way I understood how the signing of Pryor went down is this.... Brown did NOT pick Britt over Pryor by any means... basically the contract that Britt received was on the table for Pryor all offseason but Pryor chose NOT to sign a multi-year deal the Browns. 

 

Pryor chose to bet on himself that he can become one of the best WRs in the league and wants to get paid like one.  But since he has only 1 year under his belt as a WR, Pryor wasn't going to receive a WR mega deal from anyone... so Pryor wanted to play on a one year deal to show the league that he is the real deal... I think you have to like the fact that Pryor picked the Redskins and more importantly Cousins as the team/QB that will unlock his potential.

[Diehard Otis]

2 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 

I think we average about 1 QB sneak per year, over the past 8 or so.  That says a lot about coaches knowing about our lack of push.  But it is not just players; play calling can be better. We don't have to show run to run.

 

Meanwhile, Brady with a TE at guard can consistently get 4 yard QB sneaks, in part because he has the freedom to do it via quick snap and has the field spread out. We line up all slow and show heavy jumbo and with 1 sec left on the play clock sneak, and fail. Same thing once we get near the goal line.

 

It kills me that we don't go play action out of heavy jumbo much more than we do, since we can't run out of it. That is one of my favorite all time plays, bring out a bunch of TEs, hidden among them are hands. Target that young stiff hip LB. The overly aggressive D of the modern era are SO ripe to be exploited in short yardage. We just need to try.

I have to touch on this.

 

A lingering gripe of mine last season with McVay was that I felt like he was too Pass happy.  It drove me crazy!  I know Jay likes to throw too, but I think our Rushing Attack will be better with 1)more of a commitment to The Run, and 2)an imaginative approach towards The Playcalling.  

 

If the Ground Game is important to The Coaching Staff, then I fully expect improvement this Season.  

[PartyPosse]

2 hours ago, Hail2theSkins24 said:

What is Doctson's ceiling?

I'm going to be caustiously optimistic predicting stats for the upcoming 2017 season considering the injury history.

 

172 receptions, 2,571 yards and 38 TD

[Cooleyfan1993]

7 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I'm going to be caustiously optimistic predicting stats for the upcoming 2017 season considering the injury history.

 

172 receptions, 2,571 yards and 38 TD

??? sounds like my madden franchise stats for my wide receivers