ESPN will be doing a 30 for 30 on the 87 Redskins

[pjfootballer]

12 minutes ago, Jacoby66forHOF said:

 

Sure its my opinion, and I didn't expect SB victories in his 2nd stint with the Skins, but I expected more than:

 

-  Champ Bailey and a 2nd for Clinton Portis

-  Trading a 3rd round pick to Jacksonville for Mark Brunnell even though Jacksonville was destined to cut Brunnell in a couple weeks.

-  Trading a 3rd round pick and a future 1st and 4th to move up to draft Jason Campbell the year after trading a 3rd for Brunnell.  Also, Aaron Rodgers was selected 1 pick ahead of Campbell.  

-   Cutting Ryan Clark and  signing Adam Archuletta to a 6 year/30mil deal. 

-  Trading a 3rd round and 4th round picks for Brandon Lloyd, then resigned Lloyd to a 6 year/31 mil deal.

-  Trading a 3rd for TJ Duckett

 

So, yeah, I stand by my previous comment.  Great coach, getting the Skins to two playoff births in his 2nd stint with the Skins as proof, but he needed the teams Bobby Beathard built him to win Super Bowls.  That doesn't mean Gibbs doesn't belong in the HOF, just that he didn't do it all by himself during his first stint with the Skins.  He clearly needed a quality player personnel guy to win championships.  He had that with Beathard.

 

They also got playoff money.

 

I was expecting more the 2nd time around too.  But in hindsight, I give Gibbs a pass.  Like I said, he did more in the 4 years (even though it wasn't great) then the previous coaches and now he's still done more than Shanahan and Gruden.  You could tell right away he'd been away from the game too long.  So, meh.  Great coach, not a good GM, although Vinny "Bug-eyes" was helping.

 

Yes, I forgot about the playoff money also.

[MarkB452]

I found Wayne Wison's case against the Redskins to get his SB ring on the Baltimore Court website, but I have no idea what the outcome was.

 

Case number is 44848V

 

You can search for it here:

http://casesearch.courts.state.md.us/casesearch//processDisclaimer.jis

 

Issues Information

Issue:BREACH OF AGREEMENT

Issue:SPECIFIC PERFORMANCE

Issue:DISCRIMINATION

Issue:MISREPRESENTATION OF FACTS

[Darrell Green Fan]

So I finally watched this last night   To be honest I'm not sure what the replacement players have to be so bitter about. Sure the team used them and then discarded them when they weren't needed.  That was always understood from the beginning.  They didn't use them any more than the players used the team to realize their dream.  Tony Robinson went from a jail cell to Monday Night Football thanks to the Washington Redskins.  They gave him a huge opportunity, now he feels as if they owe him more? 

 

I can see the ring argument from both sides.  As I watched it I kind of agreed that they should get them  But now that I thought about it now I do not. The players voted them 1/2 of a playoff share. These same players who watched a spot welder put on his uniform, play his position for his coach on Monday Night Football while he sat home.  They had ever reason to still hate them, yet they took money out of their pockets to get the scabs who crossed their picket line playoff shares.  IMO that's more than enough.  A Super Bowl ring is for the REAL Redskins and their employees. These were not real Redskins, they were in ever sense of the world Replacement Redskins. 

[DM72]

1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

So I finally watched this last night   To be honest I'm not sure what the replacement players have to be so bitter about. Sure the team used them and then discarded them when they weren't needed.  That was always understood from the beginning.  They didn't use them any more than the players used the team to realize their dream.  Tony Robinson went from a jail cell to Monday Night Football thanks to the Washington Redskins.  They gave him a huge opportunity, now he feels as if they owe him more? 

 

I can see the ring argument from both sides.  As I watched it I kind of agreed that they should get them  But now that I thought about it now I do not. The players voted them 1/2 of a playoff share. These same players who watched a spot welder put on his uniform, play his position for his coach on Monday Night Football while he sat home.  They had ever reason to still hate them, yet they took money out of their pockets to get the scabs who crossed their picket line playoff shares.  IMO that's more than enough.  A Super Bowl ring is for the REAL Redskins and their employees. These were not real Redskins, they were in ever sense of the world Replacement Redskins. 

 

The replacement players didn't take a dime out of the pockets of the regulars. It was already brought up that those guys were going to strike no matter what. And furthermore, nobody OWNS a position. Every position and uniform on the field belongs to the Washington Redskins. So no, they didn't take positions that belonged to the regular players.

 

And if anyone seemed salty, it were the regular players. Not only did they threaten their replacements, they threatened fans.

 

For three week, those guys were Washington Redskins. It's time to give them their do.

[Rufus T Firefly]

2 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

So I finally watched this last night   To be honest I'm not sure what the replacement players have to be so bitter about. Sure the team used them and then discarded them when they weren't needed.  That was always understood from the beginning.  They didn't use them any more than the players used the team to realize their dream.  Tony Robinson went from a jail cell to Monday Night Football thanks to the Washington Redskins.  They gave him a huge opportunity, now he feels as if they owe him more? 

 

I can see the ring argument from both sides.  As I watched it I kind of agreed that they should get them  But now that I thought about it now I do not. The players voted them 1/2 of a playoff share. These same players who watched a spot welder put on his uniform, play his position for his coach on Monday Night Football while he sat home.  They had ever reason to still hate them, yet they took money out of their pockets to get the scabs who crossed their picket line playoff shares.  IMO that's more than enough.  A Super Bowl ring is for the REAL Redskins and their employees. These were not real Redskins, they were in ever sense of the world Replacement Redskins. 

And the players deserve credit for voting them those shares. Though, again, I don't recall hearing that there was any thought of denying playoff shares to Joe Montana or other picket line crossers.

 

But the ring issue has nothing to do with the players. That is on the owner alone. and the owners orchestrated the replacement games, insisted they count as much as non-replacement games, even when that was the final demand of the union to end the strike, the owners refused and insisted those games were part of the season and would count. And yet, when it came time to give them their rings, JKC refused. Why? What possible rationale did he have? They don't win the SB without those players, and JKC profited immeasurably from that, but he snubbed them because.... they hurt the union? I don't think so.

[zoony]

18 hours ago, jjpomeroy said:

 You can watch it anytime via the ESPN App

http://www.espn.com/watch/roadblock?id=3168431

 

Maybe Im missing something but I dont see it available anywhere on the app

 

Thanks though!

 

Sucks I missed it

[jjpomeroy]

5 hours ago, zoony said:

 

Maybe Im missing something but I dont see it available anywhere on the app

 

Thanks though!

 

Sucks I missed it

 

I couldn't find it by going directly to the ESPN app.  However, if you click the link that I embedded - it gives you the option to launch via the app.   It required you to identify your cable provider and login using your credentials.  I have DIrectTV and it seems to work fine.  

 

Seems to be a cumbersome process - I am sure there has to be an easier way.

[Darrell Green Fan]

11 hours ago, DM72 said:

 

The replacement players didn't take a dime out of the pockets of the regulars. It was already brought up that those guys were going to strike no matter what. And furthermore, nobody OWNS a position. Every position and uniform on the field belongs to the Washington Redskins. So no, they didn't take positions that belonged to the regular players.

 

And if anyone seemed salty, it were the regular players. Not only did they threaten their replacements, they threatened fans.

 

For three week, those guys were Washington Redskins. It's time to give them their do.

 

Well of course the replacement players hurt the regular players, they had every reason to be angry at them. Once the games renewed and the TV money continued the strikers lost all their leverage and the strike was doomed. As the starting RDE for the Redskins Dexter Manley most certainly owned that position, he earned it by beating out players like the replacements.  That was his job that was taken by a scab, there is no other way to look at it.

 

When it was over the regulars voted to take money out of their checks to pay the guys who crossed the picket line and helped bust the union.  You could see in the interviews the regulars, coaches and GM are giving full credit for what they did to help the team win the SB. Every Redskin's fan remembers and appreciates them, I knew the name Tony Robinson before watching the show.  They made a movie about them and this is now the second documentary.  To claim they are not appreciated is nonsense,

[DJD2]

Finally got a chance to watch it last night. Brought back some memories for sure. I was hoping I would see one of the lasting memories I have from that Monday night game against Dallas. It was when they were running their FG team out onto the field for a kick. Whoever the PK was, as he was running out he actually practice kicked while running  in stride. I don't know why I remember that but I guess it was just so funny to see at the time.

 

As others have said, Gibb's response to the ring question was interesting to say the least. 

 

ESPN did a decent enough job telling the story, but their Redskin bias still was on full display. Did anyone else notice that when someone was talking and they gave their name, team, position, etc. it said Washington as the team name, but for everyone else it said Cowboys or Giants, etc.

 

I though this quote from Coyle was just perfect in every way:

 

“I was at the White House. I shook Ronald Reagan’s hand,” replacement center Eric Coyle said. “I had no reason to believe I wasn’t getting a ring, until the ring fittings had come and gone and nobody checked me. … After the rings were distributed, one of the coaches, he said, ‘Why don’t you take mine and have some duplicates made?’ That’s a difficult ring to replicate. I was disappointed with the settings. I didn’t think they set the stones very well. Love it and hate it. I love it. I earned it. In some ways it’s kind of a metaphor for the whole experience. It’s not quite the real thing.”

 

(credit for above quote to: )

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2017/09/13/joe-gibbs-wont-say-it-but-1987-redskins-replacements-deserve-super-bowl-rings/?utm_term=.944c0155f58d

[Spaceman Spiff]

5 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Well of course the replacement players hurt the regular players, they had every reason to be angry at them. Once the games renewed and the TV money continued the strikers lost all their leverage and the strike was doomed. As the starting RDE for the Redskins Dexter Manley most certainly owned that position, he earned it by beating out players like the replacements.  That was his job that was taken by a scab, there is no other way to look at it.

 

When it was over the regulars voted to take money out of their checks to pay the guys who crossed the picket line and helped bust the union.  You could see in the interviews the regulars, coaches and GM are giving full credit for what they did to help the team win the SB. Every Redskin's fan remembers and appreciates them, I knew the name Tony Robinson before watching the show.  They made a movie about them and this is now the second documentary.  To claim they are not appreciated is nonsense,

 

I'm not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse here....

 

Dexter and the gang knew what they were giving up by striking.  They were giving up the opportunity to do their job and make money for what they perceived to be a greater cause.  His job wasn't taken by a scab permanently, it was taken by someone for three weeks.  As soon as Dexter stepped back into Redskins park, he had his job back.  

 

It was a nice gesture by the regulars to take money out of their checks to pay the replacements.  But as noted previously, it was the owners that wanted this, it was the owners that wanted to make the replacement games count.  It was real football.  There are players on the 1991 Skins team that did less than these guys and got rings.  

 

 

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

18 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I'm not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse here....

 

Dexter and the gang knew what they were giving up by striking.  They were giving up the opportunity to do their job and make money for what they perceived to be a greater cause.  His job wasn't taken by a scab permanently, it was taken by someone for three weeks.  As soon as Dexter stepped back into Redskins park, he had his job back.  

 

It was a nice gesture by the regulars to take money out of their checks to pay the replacements.  But as noted previously, it was the owners that wanted this, it was the owners that wanted to make the replacement games count.  It was real football.  There are players on the 1991 Skins team that did less than these guys and got rings.  

 

 

 

 

No need for the condescending tone, no I am not being obtuse. The poster said the starting RDE position belonged to the Washington Redskins. No it did not, it belonged at that time to Dexter Manley who busted his ass and earned that job.  And yes everyone knew it was temporary but nobody knew for how long.  Scabs are called scabs for a reason. Again there is a reason so many were reluctant.  Most consider crossing picket lines and yes taking the jobs of those who earned it as wrong.  I'm not a huge union guy but I can certainly agree with that position, there is no question those replacement players destroyed the union's leverage as they allowed the money to keep flowing to the owners who now had no reason to negotiate.   And I'm not changing that opion because ours happened to win 3 big games.

 

My point was the team gave them a chance to realize their dreams. The guys whose jobs they took agreed to take money out of their pockets to give them SB shares. A movie and 2 documentaries have been made to honor them.  The thought that they were used, cast aside and forgotten is simply not true.

 

Again while I can see the argument for the rings IMO the rings should go tot he players who were the real players.  But I'm not sure of the rules.  If a guy is on the Pats for a game, cut, then comes back for 2 is he entitled to a ring?  I have no idea.

 

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

10 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

No need for the condescending tone, no I am not being obtuse. The poster said the starting RDE position belonged to the Washington Redskins. No it did not, it belonged at that time to Dexter Manley who busted his ass and earned that job.  And yes everyone knew it was temporary but nobody knew for how long.  Scabs are called scabs for a reason. Again there is a reason so many were reluctant.  Most consider crossing picket lines and yes taking the jobs of those who earned it as wrong.  I'm not a huge union guy but I can certainly agree with that position, there is no question those replacement players destroyed the union's leverage as they allowed the money to keep flowing to the owners who now had no reason to negotiate.   And I'm not changing that opion because ours happened to win 3 big games.

 

My point was the team gave them a chance to realize their dreams. The guys whose jobs they took agreed to take money out of their pockets to give them SB shares. A movie and 2 documentaries have been made to honor them.  The thought that they were used, cast aside and forgotten is simply not true.

 

Again while I can see the argument for the rings IMO the rings should go tot he players who were the real players.  But I'm not sure of the rules.  If a guy is on the Pats for a game, cut, then comes back for 2 is he entitled to a ring?  I have no idea.

 

 

 

No, it does belong to the Washington Redskins.  They're the employer, Dexter was the employee.  Dexter was paid by the Skins to perform a service.  The Skins had the right to keep or get rid of Dexter at their will.  Yes, Dexter earned the position as he was the best one available for it, but that's where it stops.  

 

You're correct, the replacement players destroyed the union's leverage but that was at the request of the owners.  The owners destroyed the union's leverage by employing replacement players and making the games count in the regular season standings.  If you're a potential replacement player and have always dreamed of suiting up for an NFL team, what would you have done?  Let someone else play or go all-in?

 

It's not like the replacement players banded together and said "hey, hire us instead!" No.  The owners came up with the idea and they executed on it.  

 

The player's union wasn't strong enough to hold their position. When stars crossed the picket line, they had no choice but to cave.

 

At least the players agreed to give them some money for SB shares.  I think the owners should have recognized them with a ring, too.

 

And yes, if a guy is on the Pats for a game, gets cut and comes back he gets a ring, too.  Might not be as big and extravagant as the one Tom Brady has, but that guy gets a ring.  

 

 

[MarkB452]

42 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

It was a nice gesture by the regulars to take money out of their checks to pay the replacements.

 

Many people have posted comments like this, but to my knowledge, this is not the way playoff money is allocated (unless they did something special for 1987, in which case, can someone post a link to a source?).

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-what-are-players-paid-during-the-postseason/

>> Look here under half amount.  Players with 3-7 games with the team who are not on the current roster and have not signed with another team in the same conference.  I believe that fills the bill for a LOT of the replacement players.  Also, the league funds the playoff money, not the team.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

24 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

No, it does belong to the Washington Redskins.  They're the employer, Dexter was the employee.  Dexter was paid by the Skins to perform a service.  The Skins had the right to keep or get rid of Dexter at their will.  Yes, Dexter earned the position as he was the best one available for it, but that's where it stops.  

 

You're correct, the replacement players destroyed the union's leverage but that was at the request of the owners.  The owners destroyed the union's leverage by employing replacement players and making the games count in the regular season standings.  If you're a potential replacement player and have always dreamed of suiting up for an NFL team, what would you have done?  Let someone else play or go all-in?

 

It's not like the replacement players banded together and said "hey, hire us instead!" No.  The owners came up with the idea and they executed on it.  

 

The player's union wasn't strong enough to hold their position. When stars crossed the picket line, they had no choice but to cave.

 

At least the players agreed to give them some money for SB shares.  I think the owners should have recognized them with a ring, too.

 

And yes, if a guy is on the Pats for a game, gets cut and comes back he gets a ring, too.  Might not be as big and extravagant as the one Tom Brady has, but that guy gets a ring.  

 

 

 

I'm not sure there are different levels of rings between Tom Brady and a special teams linebacker.  Again I definitely see your side about the rings, that was my initial thought as well. Can you not see mine that the thought that these players were thrown away and forgotten is simply not fair?

 

 

1 minute ago, MarkB452 said:

 

Many people have posted comments like this, but to my knowledge, this is not the way playoff money is allocated (unless they did something special for 1987, in which case, can someone post a link to a source?).

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-what-are-players-paid-during-the-postseason/

>> Look here under half amount.  Players with 3-7 games with the team who are not on the current roster and have not signed with another team in the same conference.  I believe that fills the bill for a LOT of the replacement players.  Also, the league funds the playoff money, not the team.

 

 

Thanks for the clarification, I had thought I heard them say the players voted to have them receive shares.  I know in other cases, not even sure what sport, the players do vote on this sort of thing. 

[MarkB452]

11 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

Thanks for the clarification, I had thought I heard them say the players voted to have them receive shares.  I know in other cases, not even sure what sport, the players do vote on this sort of thing. 

 

I know they do (or at least did) this in baseball.  I remember reading stories of how some teams voted to give shares to guys who were the bullpen catchers or minor leaguers who did something great in Sept to help the team make the playoffs.

..not sure how the other sports do it.

 

Maybe they did something special in 1987, but I have not been able to find anything supporting that.

[RFK Lives]

According to a CNBC article and this one http://www.kiro7.com/living/shopping/the-top-ten-most-expensive-super-bowl-rings/77551689

the Super Bowl XXII ring costs $40K to make.  One of the Top 10 most expensive Super Bowl rings.  That surprised me.

 

However, I believe this, if the Redskins do not go 3-0 in those games, they would not have won the Super Bowl.  I believe that the Redskins have made more money off that Super Bowl appearance through the attention it garnered with Doug Williams performance and having 15 minutes of football that is now simply referred to as The Quarter, dwarfs what it would have taken to provide those players rings.

[Spaceman Spiff]

32 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I'm not sure there are different levels of rings between Tom Brady and a special teams linebacker.  Again I definitely see your side about the rings, that was my initial thought as well. Can you not see mine that the thought that these players were thrown away and forgotten is simply not fair?

 

 

Sure, I can see it.  And if that's the case, might as well give them a ring 

 

 

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I've never head of different rings for different levels of players. What a can of worms that would open up, just who decides what players get the Level 1 ring and which get Level 2. Yeah that would go over just fine with the player judged just not worth of Level 1.  Just can't see that as ever being the case. 

 

As they said in the show the rings are very expensive.  $40 grand apiece for an entire replacement team out of the owners pocket is a bit much to ask, even for a billionaire like JKC.  While it's obvious those games were crucial to gaining home field Joe Jacoby, Doug Williams etc won that ring. They were after all the players responsible for 9 other wins and all the playoff victories.  They were the players who scored 35 points in the 2nd quarter. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I'm sure it escaped me as I was watching the show while helping my son with his homework, but I was under the impression that the scab players who were released upon the return of the regular players were not invited to the White House.  If I got that wrong and they were indeed invited to the white house to celebrate, it adds a bit more credence to the argument that they deserve rings in my opinion.

[MarkB452]

5 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

$40 grand apiece for an entire replacement team out of the owners pocket is a bit much to ask, even for a billionaire like JKC

$40K is what they are worth now.  Not sure how they priced that, but Rypien's sold at auction for a little over $40K. 

https://goldinauctions.com/1987_washington_redskins_super_bowl_championship_p-lot18921.aspx

 

In 1987, the rings cost $3000 (cost listed in the article on Wilson's lawsuit)..do the math:  53 x $3K = $159K...chump change for JKC.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19900304&slug=1059104

Maxwell, the NFL spokesman, said the Redskins were given 90 Super Bowl rings at $3,000 each, but can order additional rings at their own cost. Wilson could not order his own ring.

 

I wonder if Gibbs testified for the team in that lawsuit and that's why he won't say now whether the replacements should get a ring or not (pure speculation on my part). No idea how that lawsuit ended up.

[Darrell Green Fan]

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I'm sure it escaped me as I was watching the show while helping my son with his homework, but I was under the impression that the scab players who were released upon the return of the regular players were not invited to the White House.  If I got that wrong and they were indeed invited to the white house to celebrate, it adds a bit more credence to the argument that they deserve rings in my opinion.

 

No they were not invited, on Monday they were done and went back to their lives. Which again was the plan all along. 

 

But I was wondering about the 13 Gibbs decided to retain.  That means 13 regular players had to be released right?  How did that go over in the locker room?  Seeing your buddy fired and replaced by a scab?

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

No they were not invited

 

 

In the above post by DJD2, there is a quote by Coyle that says he was at the White House and shook Reagans hand.  That's why I'm confused.  I believe that was the guy who appeared to be more crushed by all this than anyone else.

[Darrell Green Fan]

10 minutes ago, MarkB452 said:

$40K is what they are worth now.  Not sure how they priced that, but Rypien's sold at auction for a little over $40K. 

https://goldinauctions.com/1987_washington_redskins_super_bowl_championship_p-lot18921.aspx

 

In 1987, the rings cost $3000 (cost listed in the article on Wilson's lawsuit)..do the math:  53 x $3K = $159K...chump change for JKC.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19900304&slug=1059104

Maxwell, the NFL spokesman, said the Redskins were given 90 Super Bowl rings at $3,000 each, but can order additional rings at their own cost. Wilson could not order his own ring.

 

I wonder if Gibbs testified for the team in that lawsuit and that's why he won't say now whether the replacements should get a ring or not (pure speculation on my part). No idea how that lawsuit ended up.

 

I don't want to argue the cost.  But using '87 dollars in 2017 is a bit deceiving.  Either way you are right, JKC could afford it. Maybe he felt like I do, they really weren't real players and players who have earned their way into the NFL are the ones who deserve rings.  They got a playoff share and they got pulled out of Cell Block 8 to play on MNF.  Seems that's quite a lot already. 

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

In the above post by DJD2, there is a quote by Coyle that says he was at the White House and shook Reagans hand.  That's why I'm confused.  I believe that was the guy who appeared to be more crushed by all this than anyone else.

 

He may have been one of the 13 who was retained.

I kept going back to those Anthony Allen highlights.  That one TD looked like Ricky Sanders in the Super Bowl. I remember Allen, that dude was fast.

[MarkB452]

10 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

But I was wondering about the 13 Gibbs decided to retain.  That means 13 regular players had to be released right?  How did that go over in the locker room?  Seeing your buddy fired and replaced by a scab?

 

>> As I recall, the league allowed the teams to keep expanded rosters for several weeks (maybe the rest of the regular season) following the end of the strike.  Some teams chose to cut all their replacement players, like (I believe) Philadelphia.

 

Look at the Redskins 1987 full roster:   https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/was/1987_roster.htm

You can see some of the replacement players appeared in more than 3 games....see Gage and Brilz.

Brilz even started a nonreplacement game (which pissed off Jeff Bostic to no end in 1987 America's Game, but he now appears to have gotten over that)

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Yeah the players certainly have gotten over it and appreciate what they did for them.  But it couldn't have been easy to see guys cross their picket lines, destroy their leverage, and then take their position as starting center for the Washington Redskins.   But as the Dallas game went on I got the feeling they started rooting for them.  I remember that game well, it came on Black Monday when the stock market crashed.