RWJ Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said: Chris Russell talking about this tonight. He said he heard that they will likely made an announcement on the FO next week. He said he hears Doug won't get the promotion and title he wants and might leave because of it. Russell goes on about yeah he's heard he's not a great personnel guy but you reward him for being Doug Williams. I like Russell and I know some people here don't. But I think his argument about rewarding Doug is silly. He said he doesn't think Dominik gets a position because he's too chummy with the media but he doesn't rule it out. Agreed. If he leaves; he leaves. Watch Mayock get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 Kevin spent some time on McCloughan's exit this morning, piggybacking off of an interview Galdi had with Jerry Brewer. Did anyone hear Galdi's piece with Brewer?  I only heard a snippet where Brewer was saying the 'anonymous team official' statement about Scott drinking was disappointing. Kevin took the stance that the article that came out the day before Scott was fired made no mention of Scott's prior transgressions and the Skins took the bait and went the low road with the anonymous quotes in response to that.  Where the conversation was going is that this organization can't afford to take the low road in public relation given its history, yet they just had to do it. We already have so many things up against us historically, be it true or false, that our reputation is mud in league circles for up and comers, almost painting ourselves into a corner to hire from within. Which will most likely end not a 'hire' at all and simply be a title for the sake of a title.  Clocks ticking on this news Russell expected to be announced this week...     Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: Kevin spent some time on McCloughan's exit this morning, piggybacking off of an interview Galdi had with Jerry Brewer. Did anyone hear Galdi's piece with Brewer?  I only heard a snippet where Brewer was saying the 'anonymous team official' statement about Scott drinking was disappointing. Kevin took the stance that the article that came out the day before Scott was fired made no mention of Scott's prior transgressions and the Skins took the bait and went the low road with the anonymous quotes in response to that.  Where the conversation was going is that this organization can't afford to take the low road in public relation given its history, yet they just had to do it. We already have so many things up against us historically, be it true or false, that our reputation is mud in league circles for up and comers, almost painting ourselves into a corner to hire from within. Which will most likely end not a 'hire' at all and simply be a title for the sake of a title.  Clocks ticking on this news Russell expected to be announced this week...      Brewer said that neither side (McCloughan, Allen) has been honest (or completely honest) as to what happened. That was more than a bit surprising.  I personally think it was Tony Wyllie who was the source of the McCloughan story after he was fired. Allen seems to genuinely not give two ****s how many arrows are slung his way. Cooley always said Allen considers it part of his job. Wyllie, on the otherhand, is a crass hothead even when on the record. I also think Allen wasn't exactly bothered by that story getting out, where normally he's livid when leaks take place.  What continues to shock me, though, is that the tone almost across the board in the media has changed drastically from late February to now. Back then, it was almost 100% that Allen's "ego" and "jealousy" was driving everything, and that the Redskins used Scot to pull the wool over the eyes of the fan base, etc, etc. I didn't remember reading anything that tried showing the team's side even remotely. And good lord, the back and forth among media members on twitter back then was nauseating...with a lot of ridiculing fans who refused to see that Allen's ego was ruining the Redskins and that he and Snyder couldn't stand not having all the power. But now, outside of Reid, pretty much every media member who took those stances back then NOW takes the stance that "we'll never know exactly what happened" and that "there's a lot of grey area" to this mess. back then, there was very little mention of grey area...it was commented on as if Allen's ego being the culprit was beyond obvious.  Many of them even acknowledged that the Allen rhetoric back then was over the top. Reading and hearing this now, after what I was reading and hearing back then, makes me think that a lot o media members have been finding out some stuff about Scot behind the scenes and--instead of writing up some article detailing the info from "sources" like they did with Allen--are acknowledging that they know some stuff concerning Scot without saying what it is they actually know. Maybe Scot being fired "with cause" made them take a step back and rethink things a bit.  As for the new GM/"GM"--I think Brewer said something like who is named GM means less than whether or not they add some legitimate talent evaluators to the front office. I'm not sure if that was his personal viewpoint or if he was conveying what he feels Allen is thinking right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 That sounds ominous, unless it means he's decided he can't trust Allen to hire his own competition/boss. Which is not what it means, I highly doubt this leads to an outside hire with full roster control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWJ Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said: Mayock? It was rumored Dan loves the guy. Will be interesting in the coming days/weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilco_holland Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 45 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said: That sounds ominous, unless it means he's decided he can't trust Allen to hire his own competition/boss. Which is not what it means, I highly doubt this leads to an outside hire with full roster control.  I think it's key in getting a GM. If Bruce Allen would call me and tell me. He we would like to interview me for the GM job. I would also like to have a chat with Dan. Because I want to make sure the owner also wants me and the roles are clear. Otherwise you are just getting in a mess. Where Bruce Allen might throw you under the buss to safe his own ass. Or maybe that owners doesnt like you and your vision and after a year....he wants to fire you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 There is no GM search IMO. We are just looking to add a 3rd or 4th in command behind Allen Campbell / Doug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Been listening to Chris Russell tonight. He said like he did in his tweets that Dan's involved in the personnel department reorganization and Kirk negotiations.  He didn't elaborate much on it.  He said that Dan is embarrassed by the PR fall out via what went down with Scot.  And he also realizes the level of good will/stability it will bring to the fan base/season ticket holders to resign Kirk.  In spite of Bruce's rhetoric in interviews about how 2018 in an option still in tagging Kirk (who knows if he really means it though) Dan doesn't see 2018 tagging as a viable thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: Been listening to Chris Russell tonight. He said like he did in his tweets that Dan's involved in the personnel department reorganization and Kirk negotiations.  He didn't elaborate much on it.  He said that Dan is embarrassed by the PR fall out via what went down with Scot.  And he also realizes the level of good will/stability it will bring to the fan base/season ticket holders to resign Kirk.  In spite of Bruce's rhetoric in interviews about how 2018 in an option still in tagging Kirk (who knows if he really means it though) Dan doesn't see 2018 tagging as a viable thing. I hope every ounce of that is true, even him being involved with the personnel department.  It 'sounds' like he smells **** with Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Russell just expounded with Dan recognizes the business component of some of the things going on. And he doesn't like it and wants it fixed.  Russell was recently pessimistic about Doug being elevated in the FO.  Now with Snyder's involvement he said for example Doug Williams might be elevated thanks to Dan's involvement since he recognizes its PR value.  Russell then goes on about how he's heard that Doug's work ethic isn't that hot and some question his personnel prowess.  Then goes but he's worked real hard at getting better and improving.  And he has the personality to rally people behind him.  And Russell then says us fans would much rather have Doug Williams as the GM then some unknown from the outside.  I just tweeted Russell saying if that's what he thinks he's out of touch with at least some fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 If Dans idea of PR value is making Doug Williams the GM, he's more out of touch than we've imagined. I like Doug, great story and all that but I'm not sure anyone outside of a few homers would buy that move. Â Doug Williams doesn't move the needle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsPassion4Life Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 I know I'm in the minority, but I'm perfectly fine with the current front office structure...for now. I want to beef up the scouting department...especially when it comes to small school college scouting....besides Robert Davis; when was the last time we drafted someone from a low level conference or Division two school? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 8 minutes ago, SkinsPassion4Life said: I know I'm in the minority, but I'm perfectly fine with the current front office structure...for now. I want to beef up the scouting department...especially when it comes to small school college scouting....besides Robert Davis; when was the last time we drafted someone from a low level conference or Division two school?  That's about the least of my concerns since those types of players rarely succeed, and the ones who do are usually the obvious, hugely productive or freakishly athletic guys that are on everyone's radar anyways. Its not like teams in the NFL are building dynasties off of consistently identifying and drafting unknown DII or small school players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsPassion4Life Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 39 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said: That's about the least of my concerns since those types of players rarely succeed, and the ones who do are usually the obvious, hugely productive or freakishly athletic guys that are on everyone's radar anyways. Its not like teams in the NFL are building dynasties off of consistently identifying and drafting unknown DII or small school players.  Who said anything about building dynasties off small school players?    I said we never draft them...one or two guys can make a difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 With this recent news about Dan let me quote myself from a post I made back in October of 2015:  Quote  Right now, in my mind, we got actual experts fulfilling the roles their titles imply for the first time during Synder's tenure. Bruce Allen has shown he can handle the executive responsibilities of being Team President in the past with the Raiders and Bucs. Scot has shown he can evaluate and assess talent with the best of them, which is the main responsibility his GM title entails. Just have to hope he keeps his personal demons away, or at least keeps them personal. Gruden was a normal hire for HC, a successful coordinator who is/was young and "up and coming".  So it's there right now, at least structurally. The questions are, will Snyder go overboard with involvement, again? Will the titles continue to be representative of roles/responsibilities and never undermined? Will they maintain the structure even if Scot or Gruden need to be replaced? Do they have a solid hiring process?       http://es.redskins.com/topic/393635-developing-a-system-patience-a-must/?do=findComment&comment=10364083  So far, out of those four questions I mentioned at the end I'd say the answers are:  1) No. By all accounts he let Allen, Scot and Jay do their jobs. Also, I'm fine with Snyder's involvement regarding signing Kirk and the reorganization of the FO, those are things every owner should be involved in.  2) That's the question, isn't it? There's certainly some evidence out there that Scot was undermined. And the totally unorthodox way this whole "GM search" has went thus far suggests the role/title itself is/was questionable to begin with.  3) Doesn't look good right now. Hope I'm wrong.  4) Same as above. This has, perhaps, been my biggest criticism against Snyder. His hiring process. The whole "meddling" crap or "overspending in FA" is old, tired, and hasn't been true for some time so it's a shame that those of us who criticize Snyder get lumped in with that crowd (often just lazy journalists) too often.  But, yeah, back to the hiring process. I'm not even sure he has one or, better yet, a solid philosophy in terms of identifying experts in their respective fields and hiring the best fits.  Having an owner with a solid hiring process is probably the most important asset to any organization. If he can't hire properly, then how can he build an organization that creates a sustainable environment conducive to success?  I'm very interested in seeing how this all pans out. It'll say a lot about the organization moving forward and about Dan himself. More than many realize because of recency bias (due to what has been, at least on the surface, a successful offseason in personnel acquisition). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 8 hours ago, thesubmittedone said: Having an owner with a solid hiring process is probably the most important asset to any organization. If he can't hire properly, then how can he build an organization that creates a sustainable environment conducive to success?  I'm very interested in seeing how this all pans out. It'll say a lot about the organization moving forward and about Dan himself. More than many realize because of recency bias (due to what has been, at least on the surface, a successful offseason in personnel acquisition).  Should be interesting to see what transpires.  Danny has had some bad business deals after buying the Redskins which has been talked about in various articles.  The new one is that his radio stations have struggled and 980 is getting creamed by 106.7 and the value of the station is a fraction now of what it costs when he bought it.  So in recent years the dude doesn't exactly have the Midas Touch when it comes to success.   The one common refrain though for his success has been the Redskins increasing their value.  He's been a master at selling hope.  But I think fans/ticket holders are a bit burned out and weary on this front.  If its plain as day to us that letting Kirk go would be a PR disaster, I'd gather Danny gets it and likely follows through to get it done.  The GM drill to me seems a bit more complicated.  Bruce tries hard to sell the status quo in his interviews since the draft.  Some people including posters here cling to the off season as a success so everything is honky dory.   And there are plenty who are skeptical about riding with an unorthodox operation manned by a mix of players who either aren't highly regarded in the role they are assuming or don't seem to be in demand around the league.  Our issue with it is we've seen this movie before and it has its ups and downs but tends to land on mediocre.  Where does Danny land on this one, I don't know.  But the reason why I've never bought in that all he wants to do is win is for a guy that is supposedly so smart then how is it that he never modeled what most great franchises do until 2015?  And that move seem to be brought on by pressure and despair among season ticket holders.  Has he learned his lesson or is it back to business as usual?  Sally Jenkins IMO wrote the most on point (for my take) article about Danny years back where she said yeah the dude wants to win.  But its more important for him to win his way with his touches on it.  The reason being its more fun for him that way.  He bought this franchise as a fan.  It's his toy and he wants to play with it at least sometimes.  The other reason is if they finally win, he wants to say yeah look at me, I helped do it.  Danny loves to go on about how he wanted Santana Moss where Marty wanted Rod Gardner.  He likes people to know he got that one right.  He doesn't talk about all the bad moves he pushed.  Some of them came out by accident with Vinny and Gibbs talking things up in separate interviews.  Them wanting to trade two #1 picks for Chad Johnson and being turned down.  According to Shanny, Danny wanted them to go get R. Moss in the twilight of his career.  And, he's the guy who pushed for McNabb and to a lesser degree the RG3 trade.  I recall reading Danny pushed to draft Patrick Ramsey.  Regardless, we don't hear about most NFL owners push for these deals-trades.  Hopefully, he's learned his lesson.   If you buy the most recent article about this, Danny hasn't gone completely cold turkey.  He will mostly stay out of the way but then occasionally push a suggestion hard.  And if that suggestion is turned down, whomever turns the suggestion down better be right because otherwise you will be weakened for it.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 https://www.dchotread.com/2017/06/08/the-boss-is-back Snyder is also very involved in the re-organization of the front office, which will be announced shortly. Snyder was and is still embarrassed and humiliated by how badly the Scot McCloughan situation played out. Many Redskins fans completely blame the organization for their handling of it. The Redskins handled it wrong in the end, but to say they are completely or mostly to blame is simply wrong and far from the reality. The problem for Snyder and the Redskins? Nobody wants to hear or believe the truth. The track record of mistrust is so bad that nobody will give a true benefit of the doubt. NFL sources continue to suggest that a decision will be made shortly and while nothing is official in any way, the most likely scenario is Doug Williams taking on a larger role, possibly with the title of general manager added on along with former senior executive, A.J. Smith, brought back in an advisory/executive role. Sources suggest that Snyder’s involvement has led to Williams’ chances increasing for a more visible and crucial role, while Williams has demonstrated behind the scenes an ability to organize, lead and galvanize the personnel staff. This is an interesting development because just a few weeks ago, it was looking likeWilliams would be left behind and could have potentially left the organization, a move that would make the Redskins look worse than they currently do. Some fans on twitter and elsewhere continue to insist that they do not want Williams to have more power and control and would not mind if he left the organization. For whatever reason they have Some of those reasons might be valid. It’s not as if Williams’ work ethic and personnel skills are revered by others around the NFL, but Williams has earned his place on the field and off it. Fans want a new name and fresh blood to be put in charge. That’s not happening, likely ever again, if it even happened with McCloughan. There’s fear of the unknown and the thought by several people in a high-ranking capacity that the building is stronger today than ever before. Another name could be added to the mix and nothing is official in this regard, but sources say that Snyder is bent on fixing the image of the organization and the front office by being more involved in the hiring/structure process. Why? Because Snyder is insisting on a group of men that will not embarrass the organization like he feels and everybody on the inside knows that McCloughan did. It sounds weird and feels weird to say this, but a wiser and more mature Dan Snyder’s involvement in his true passion might be what the Redskins need at this moment. Nobody wants or believes that Snyder will be evaluating tape and making most of the roster decisions, especially because he now trusts Jay Gruden and many others that are paid handsomely to deal with those situations.  If Snyder can help ensure that a long-term deal for Cousins gets done (or has a legitimate chance) and if he can restore some public trust and goodwill back in the organizations’ hierarchy, is that a bad thing?  Especially if that translates to the Redskins winning more on the field and of course, the all-important off the field victories that the Snyder regime has experienced much more of than the former.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Interesting tidbits leaking now. I'm good with the current group of evaluators, though another person for talent evaluation would be great to add to fill void left by Scot. I'm not excited by the idea of Doug as GM. I don't expect a GM here to have absolute power, with the team instead going with the group approach, but still would prefer Doug had a different title that better showed his true role with the team. If he does have strengths in organization and motivation, then make him exec. VP and Jay Gruden is essentially defacto GM, but utilizes group approach with other personnel. I'm fine with Doug and Jay as the faces, just not Doug as an actual, full-role GM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Sorry if this is annoying to anyone, but I can't help but post this stuff. I've been looking at some of my posts the last few years on this topic and it's really pertinent stuff.  Here's what I said about Dan and his "hiring process" in June of last year:  Quote My biggest criticism of Dan Snyder has been his hiring process (or lack thereof really). Snyder had Vinny here forever for God's sake. That's really where Snyder needs to be involved in a major way, and what he needs to excel at as owner. Macro, not micro.  It's silly to think he shouldn't be involved at all, but if his macro hiring process is top notch he won't need to be - and shouldn't be - involved in the actual decision-making of the people hired to fulfill said roles. In fact, his past involvement in "micro" decisions was only a testament to his failure as owner to have the right hiring process. If he couldn't trust whom he hired, or allowed to be hired, to fulfill their specific roles and had to force things or insert himself, that suffices as enough proof of his own failures there.  Perhaps the best example of this was the Zorn hire and tenure. I won't go into all the details, but there's a litany of evidence in that whole episode. In the end, he actually stated that Vinny shouldn't have allowed him to make such a hire. Wow.  So it's not simply the structure that's important. It's the structure and the hiring process, the latter being more significant. The ability to find the right people for those specific roles in said structure.  We were extremely fortunate someone who might arguably be the best talent evaluator in the NFL like Scot was out there.  Don't get me wrong, I'm extremely pleased by where we're at and I'm mostly looking forward... it's just hard to ignore how long this took and how much damage we could've easily avoided.  At this point, I believe Dan understands what Schaffer is saying now about the proper structure. The question remains, however, does Dan totally understand that for the organization to always be in the best position for success he needs to have a great hiring process to maintain this proper structure?  Right now it seems Allen is the guy in charge of the hiring process, and I'm fine with that. I think he's solid in that role, though there is the question of whether or not Allen just got lucky that Scot was out there and he had no other legit options for a true GM.  Either way, Dan has to be the guy, in the end, who excels at this because he's above Allen himself. If Allen starts to stink it up, does Dan know how to replace him properly? Or can he assume Allen's role himself?  If we are to maintain this organizational integrity for as long as Dan is the owner, those questions have to be answered in the affirmative.  I hope and pray that's the case now. I'd love to find out that they have this elaborate system in place tracking both experienced as well as up and coming scouts, coaches, execs, etc... to where any of our current occupants of top titles can be replaced with someone equally as good or better, and that Snyder is himself fully aware of it so that he could excel at finding the right people. http://es.redskins.com/topic/401767-wash-times-a-man-with-a-plan-redskins’-eric-schaffer-serves-valuable-role-as-contract-negotiator/  If he elevates Doug Williams, suffice to say, it's going to be extremely hard for me to see how that is evidence of a solid hiring process. I hope Russel's totally wrong about the "this hire will be good for PR" crap. That's not why you make a hire. Nor is "comfortability". Those two things, while significant, should be lower in priority than things like expertise, track record, experience, etc... within a hiring process.  You should already have a detailed list of the best and brightest from all over and interviewing them to see who fits best. If it's someone within the organization already, then you'd know that pretty quickly and should've moved on it by now, though it still would've been the right thing to do to interview some from the outside.  Just doesn't feel like that's what's happened here since Scot's fire. I can only hope Dan sets it right, but it's tough for me to be optimistic about it, especially if the Williams stuff is true.   :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 8 hours ago, thesubmittedone said: Sorry if this is annoying to anyone, but I can't help but post this stuff. I've been looking at some of my posts the last few years on this topic and it's really pertinent stuff.  Here's what I said about Dan and his "hiring process" in June of last year:  http://es.redskins.com/topic/401767-wash-times-a-man-with-a-plan-redskins’-eric-schaffer-serves-valuable-role-as-contract-negotiator/  If he elevates Doug Williams, suffice to say, it's going to be extremely hard for me to see how that is evidence of a solid hiring process. I hope Russel's totally wrong about the "this hire will be good for PR" crap. That's not why you make a hire. Nor is "comfortability". Those two things, while significant, should be lower in priority than things like expertise, track record, experience, etc... within a hiring process.  You should already have a detailed list of the best and brightest from all over and interviewing them to see who fits best. If it's someone within the organization already, then you'd know that pretty quickly and should've moved on it by now, though it still would've been the right thing to do to interview some from the outside.  Just doesn't feel like that's what's happened here since Scot's fire. I can only hope Dan sets it right, but it's tough for me to be optimistic about it, especially if the Williams stuff is true.   :/  If I had to come up with a theme under Danny's tenure, its comfort, fun and PR trumps winning.   Will see how this all goes down.  But if Chris Russell is correct, Scot wasn't Bruce's top choice but he preferred his close pal AJ Smith.  Danny wasn't comfortable with AJ Smith because he didn't share his point of view on RG3. Kicking in with other reporters takes:  Bruce is comfortable with Doug because Doug has his back.  Danny likes Doug perhaps because he reminds of the glory years and perhaps the fans will feel the same.  Bruce wasn't comfortable with Scot being willing to ruffle feathers where he disagreed with him.  Danny loved Cerrato in part because they were pals and according to some -- Vinny didn't challenge him.  Danny and Vinny didn't hire Gregg Williams according to a report and Vinny acceded this -- because they weren't comfortable with him. They didn't think they'd all be chummy together. Whereas, Zorn has his faults but the dude comes off very comfortable and nonthreatening to be around.  So that was the better hire to them, then.  I have to admit and said so then part of my issue with the Jay hire was it fit Bruce's comfort zone very well.  And I am skeptical of building an organization that way.  But its a case in point, that sometimes this way can work out in bit and pieces.  Jay I think ended up as a good hire.  But reflecting on all of this.  That culture is bred from the top.  Putting comfort over competence IMO is driven by fear.  The fear that someone won't have your back and you can be replaced.  And if you read about Danny maybe people dispute how involved or not he is with the team.  But I haven't seen anyone dispute that he's not an easy guy to work with as to employees (aside from the coaches) in the building.  There is a lot of turnover in that building.  And more than one reporter has said the dude has the reputation of being very moody and impulsive.  I concede that Danny has been willing when things look bleak to go for a strong personality coach. Marty and Shanny have an imperial streak to them.  They aren't push overs. But it didn't work out.  Scot doesn't come off as a push over.  It didn't work out.  I know there were extenuating circumstances with all of them but its hard to miss the pattern here.  It's part of the reason why I think Jay is the perfect coach for this team.  There are things that Jay does that I don't love.  I don't think he's the next Belichick.  But I think he's a good coach.  And he has the perfect personality for dealing with this dysfunction.  And oddly I thought this right after spending a few hours at Redskins Park last year when all seemed well across the board.  Jay has a strong enough personality where he isn't a push over.  But he also doesn't come off imperial like Shanny does.  He's the type who IMO can come off strong but laid back and nonthreatening at the same time.  He's IMO the perfect personality combination to deal with Danny's style.  I don't think he would let Danny run over him but has the people skills to play the office political game and put people at ease.  If they ultimately go business as usual with the front office, Jay might be the one hope to ward off this team from spiraling into the typical Redskins dysfunction.  Circling to the GM spot.  Yeah IMO Doug Williams would signal business as usual.  It would be Danny-Bruce not wanting to be challenged.  And that IMO has been the sad thing under Danny's tenure.  That is, the leadership from him seems to be driven by fear and insecurity.  I hope at his advancing age, he's matured past that.  Will see.  Danny has been willing to go outside IMO his comfort zone with head coaches over the years.  But he hasn't so much been willing to do that with the front office.  And if multiple reporters are correct Bruce is even more protective than Dan of maintaining the status quo when it comes to the front office where he doesn't want someone to come in to rock the boat.   Personally, I want a guy that is willing to rock the boat if they believe in something without worrying about repercussions.  But that doesn't seem to be part of the Redskins culture under Danny for the most part.  And that IMO is why this team has been on a roller coaster of mediocrity with more downs than ups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said: If I had to come up with a theme under Danny's tenure, its comfort, fun and PR trumps winning.   Will see how this all goes down.  But if Chris Russell is correct, Scot wasn't Bruce's top choice but he preferred his close pal AJ Smith.  Danny wasn't comfortable with AJ Smith because he didn't share his point of view on RG3. Kicking in with other reporters takes:  Bruce is comfortable with Doug because Doug has his back.  Danny likes Doug perhaps because he reminds of the glory years and perhaps the fans will feel the same.  Bruce wasn't comfortable with Scot being willing to ruffle feathers where he disagreed with him.  Danny loved Cerrato in part because they were pals and according to some -- Vinny didn't challenge him.  Danny and Vinny didn't hire Gregg Williams according to a report and Vinny acceded this -- because they weren't comfortable with him. They didn't think they'd all be chummy together. Whereas, Zorn has his faults but the dude comes off very comfortable and nonthreatening to be around.  So that was the better hire to them, then.   May be a few holes in that theory...  The timeline of contacting Scot and the details of the conversations had between the three men before his being hired that were revealed after Scot's hire doesn't jive too well with Scot being a 2nd choice behind the more "comfortable" AJ Smith...what I do think shouldn't be overlooked, though (and you kinda allude to it) is that looking back, I think Allen wanted BOTH men there, with Smith, Scot and Allen making decisions. Scot may have balked at that, or Snyder (for the reasons you mentioned)...hell, it may have even been Smith. If any of that happened, that is lol...  And it wasn't a choice between Gregg Williams and Zorn. If there was a choice, it would have been between Williams and Jim Fassel or between Fassel and Zorn. From the reports from "insiders" at the time, though, Williams just didn't give a very good interview (there was also comments about Gibbs still being upset at Williams having the first play of the Bills game with 10 players on the field in tribute to Sean Taylor's passing without asking/telling him first, but I don't really buy that playing any role in anything, if it's even true).  Your overall point about comfort, though, I tend to agree with...I said something very similar a few months ago about how Allen--after the personality dysfunction of the last months of the Shanahan era--may be caring more about how well each of the men in the FO gel and work together more than how qualified they are for their positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Califan007 said: And it wasn't a choice between Gregg Williams and Zorn. If there was a choice, it would have been between Williams and Jim Fassel or between Fassel and Zorn. From the reports from "insiders" at the time, though, Williams just didn't give a very good interview (there was also comments about Gibbs still being upset at Williams having the first play of the Bills game with 10 players on the field in tribute to Sean Taylor's passing without asking/telling him first, but I don't really buy that playing any role in anything, if it's even true).  Your overall point about comfort, though, I tend to agree with...I said something very similar a few months ago about how Allen--after the personality dysfunction of the last months of the Shanahan era--may be caring more about how well each of the men in the FO gel and work together more than how qualified they are for their positions.  As for the Gregg Williams part.  Vinny Cerrato flat out talked about why Gregg wasn't hired and went into the story about how he and Danny wanted to see how well they clicked with Gregg so they watched the playoffs together.  And long story short, Vinny and Danny in doing so realized they didn't have good chemistry/camaraderie with Gregg and that made the decision for them. Yeah I recall reading one of the insiders here saying at the time that Gregg was more interested in talking about the past than what he'd do in the future in the interview. Maybe so.  But I put more stock in the horses mouth telling the story versus someone recounting what they heard from someone within the organization.  Seems like the four competing theories on this thread relating to Bruce are: A.  Bruce is just a stooge for Danny and whatever he does is simply a proxy for what Dan asked him to do.  B.  Bruce is a Machiavellian type who likes having the power without that power being challenged.  He's open to recommendations but he wants to be the guy that makes the call.  C.  Bruce is a good guy who just wants people to get along and for the ship to run smoothly.  He doesn't care if he's the de-facto GM or not.  He deserves the benefit of the doubt.  D.  Bruce is the man (forget Tampa, he has a clean slate here as a GM) he had a great draft-FA and heck yeah we want him calling the shots from here on with Campbell and the rest of the clan helping him.  And I know some people are split in their own mind on some of this but its not hard to see what theory is the dominant one is in everyone's posts when the subject is broached.  My take is closer to B and C versus A.  More B than C based on what's being reported but I am open that its C if he hires a real GM with real pedigree.  My fear about Bruce is he's an enabler to the culture I laid out and more for his own self preservation/power reasons than what's best for the Redskins.  If I recall from pervious posts you think that Bruce reaching out to Scot earlier in the process gives a positive lift to Bruce's motives on the GM front.  I don't agree especially considering the back stories I've heard so far with how the power structured worked once Scot got here.  And guys like Russell who suggested that Danny egged on Bruce on that front to go get a GM type.  Could it be so that Bruce could care less whether he is the de-facto GM and whether he makes the ultimate calls. Sure.  But I don't see anything that has earned him the benefit of the doubt on that front.  So like I've been saying for months, I'll judge Bruce based on his next move.  I got little doubt Bruce would take recommendations and advice from anyone but taking advice versus conceding actual legitimate power are two entirely different things.    For example, AJ Smith comes off as a powerful opinionated guy.  If they hire AJ, I am sure he'd give his advice in strong terms.  But I doubt Bruce gives AJ the final call.  So Bruce could listen and choose to ignore.  Plus AJ is a pal and would have Bruce's back.  So it's a win win.  That's why I thought Russell's question to Bruce a couple of weeks ago was funny and on point where he asked him whether the new personnel person would have to be someone from Bruce's past relationships  As Laconfora likes to say the decision maker and the guy who holds the purse strings is the guy who holds the power in the organization = Bruce.  I suspect Bruce doesn't want to give that up.  If he indeed though does give that up, I'll buy in that Bruce isn't about power.  And heck if Bruce was a stud personnel guy, I wouldn't care about how power hungry he is or isn't.  But I don't want a non-personnel guy calling the shots on personnel.  It's always been that simple for me.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 @Skinsinparadise  Of the four options you mentioned, I would likely fall in Group C...I'd say Group B but:  1) I don't see him as "Machiavellian", and... 2) Every single head coach and GM in the league doesn't like their power being challenged lol...  Re: "you think that Bruce reaching out to Scot earlier in the process gives a positive lift to Bruce's motives on the GM front."  More accurately, I think it puts sizeable dents in the idea that Allen is a power-hungry egomaniac who feels threatened by anyone else getting credit for the Redskins' success and only wanted a "Yes Man". If Allen were truly Machiavellian, he would have schemed like a mf'er in the middle of 2014 and convinced Snyder to let him continue being GM...going out in the middle of his first year truly in power to find his replacement--and suggesting someone he knows the owner would most likely want to hire--doesn't fit the description of a "cunning, scheming, and unscrupulous" action. So I don't subscribe to him being a unscrupulous scheming scoundrel.  Re: what vinny said...Vinny also said he doesn't know why he was fired and blamed being tarred in the media for being let go, even though Snyder was on record as saying how things turn out with Zorn will fall squarely on his shoulders and will be how he is measured. I think Snyder even said Vinny should have kept him from hiring Zorn...yet Vinny has no clue why he was fired and blames bad press lol...  But I don't really doubt that how well they gelled with Williams (or didn't gel) played a role in things, but I also don't buy that it's the main thing that kept him from getting the head coaching job. I wouldn't be surprised if spending time with each HC prospect to see how well they get along (for lack of a better way of putting it) helps in their decision-making, even if they may weigh that part a little too heavily. But if Williams did a bang-up job in his interview and impressed the hell out of them, I'm finding it hard that Snyder and Vinny would overlook that because they weren't clanking beer mugs in the owner's box during a playoff game. Snyder ****-canned his BFF in 2001 when Schotty said he'd never work with Vinny still on staff. Snyder's desire to win with what he considered to be a top-shelf HC--a guy who seriously criticized Snyder in the media like 6 months earlier and said he'd never work for Snyder, mind you lol--apparently trumped having the comfort of Vinny with him. He then wanted to bring back Beathard to work with Schotty before bringing back Vinny (probably because he knew Schotty wouldn't have agreed to it), so I don't think installing a comfort zone hasn't been a yearly priority for Dan Snyder.  I actually feel Vinny was definitely the Machiavellian one, and his recommendation of Zorn for head coach falls in line in wanting to hire someone who won't challenge or usurp his power and will be more of a "Yes Man". Wouldn't surprise me one iota if Vinny spent time convincing Snyder to not hire Williams due to just that fear. Vinny wanting Zorn and Allen wanting Scot are like night and day in my opinion.   EDIT: For the record, here's what Williams' horse mouth said at the time lol:  What appeared obvious is now official: Gregg Williams is no longer under consideration for the Washington Redskins head coaching vacancy, high-ranking team and league sources have told ESPN's Chris Mortensen.  However, Williams said Friday night that he has yet to be informed of that decision and strongly rebutted any notion that he criticized former Redskins coach Joe Gibbs during the interview process, as team and league sources claimed Friday.  "I haven't been told anything," said Williams. "And I would never, ever dump on Joe Gibbs. He is one of the best people I have ever been around in life. I came here because of Joe Gibbs. He's in the Hall of Fame as a coach and he's a better person than he is a football coach. I can't believe anybody would suggest I dumped on Joe. That's completely false."  Williams said that he had three interview sessions, not four as reported, with Redskins owner Dan Snyder and Vinny Cerrato, the team's executive vice president of player personnel. He said there was never any tension in those interviews.  "Dan and I, and Vinny, had a good time during the process," said Williams. "As far as I'm concerned, everything went well. We laughed, we joked. We never had anything we disagreed on, not really. Vinny and I have gotten along very well, too." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 2 hours ago, Califan007 said: @Skinsinparadise More accurately, I think it puts sizeable dents in the idea that Allen is a power-hungry egomaniac who feels threatened by anyone else getting credit for the Redskins' success and only wanted a "Yes Man". If Allen were truly Machiavellian, he would have schemed like a mf'er in the middle of 2014 and convinced Snyder to let him continue being GM...going out in the middle of his first year truly in power to find his replacement--and suggesting someone he knows the owner would most likely want to hire--doesn't fit the description of a "cunning, scheming, and unscrupulous" action. So I don't subscribe to him being a unscrupulous scheming scoundrel.  EDIT: For the record, here's what Williams' horse mouth said at the time lol:  What appeared obvious is now official: Gregg Williams is no longer under consideration for the Washington Redskins head coaching vacancy, high-ranking team and league sources have told ESPN's Chris Mortensen.  However, Williams said Friday night that he has yet to be informed of that decision and strongly rebutted any notion that he criticized former Redskins coach Joe Gibbs during the interview process, as team and league sources claimed Friday.  "I haven't been told anything," said Williams. "And I would never, ever dump on Joe Gibbs. He is one of the best people I have ever been around in life. I came here because of Joe Gibbs. He's in the Hall of Fame as a coach and he's a better person than he is a football coach. I can't believe anybody would suggest I dumped on Joe. That's completely false."  Williams said that he had three interview sessions, not four as reported, with Redskins owner Dan Snyder and Vinny Cerrato, the team's executive vice president of player personnel. He said there was never any tension in those interviews.  "Dan and I, and Vinny, had a good time during the process," said Williams. "As far as I'm concerned, everything went well. We laughed, we joked. We never had anything we disagreed on, not really. Vinny and I have gotten along very well, too."  I recall the stories well about Gregg.  I recall the Gibbs thing.  Then the Redskins denying the story.  Vinny talking about going to see Gregg's kid play football on Friday nights during the year as proof as there being no tension, etc.  I even recall exchanging an email with Laconfora about it at the time with him suggesting the FO (Vinny) was using Joseph White from AP to do their laundry work because at the time it wasn't the first story that came out and then got denied and all of those cases it was J. White.  Gregg obviously isn't the horse's mouth on why he wasn't hired.   He's not the guy who made the decision to not hire himself.  Vinny and Danny made that call.  Vinny at a later day told the tale that I talked about in my previous post and it was in an answer to why that hire didn't go down. Whether that was the overriding reason or not, it was the story he launched into when it came to explaining it all -- so at the very least I gather it was a big part of it. Though I agree with you its intuitive that there was a mix of reasons.   As for Bruce, being machiavellian doesn't mean evil. I don't connote the word "scoundrel" as you did with the word.  I looked up the definition and I didn't see scoundrel attached to it.  But if you got scoundrel attached to the word on your search then cool, then lets forgot that word and use the word "political".  That would fit what Jones-Russell have said about Bruce.  Is that true or not?  You got me.  Like I said, I'll judge Bruce by his next move.  Where I think you and I differ on him, you give him the benefit of the doubt for the most part.  I don't see how he's earned the benefit of the doubt.  Not even close IMO.  But like I've said from the get go, its easy to see whether Bruce is being mischaracterized by what transpires as his next move.  IMO if Bruce emerges through all of this as the final say on personnel -- then I don't see how we can just shrug off all the criticism.  On the other hand, if someone else competent emerges as the final say with personnel -- then indeed Bruce has been mischaracterized.   As for Bruce in 2014.  You've used the "when" he approached Scot argument him multiple times.  So I gather you think its very meaningful and are unlikely to budge on this one.  So I won't belabor it here.   In my book it could be meaningful or might not be at all.  I actually missed the story of Bruce approaching Scot in 2014, do you recall where it was from where you could post it?  I'd just be curious as to how that all was explained.  Maybe if I saw it and the story brought context to it, it would change my mind.  At the moment, I'll address that argument with 2 devils advocate points.  1.  If the team has a miserable year and my owner approached me to do something about it.  Heck yeah I'd listen to him and act on it versus double down with the owner and advocate myself for a position that arguably isn't my niche?  I'd stay in my lane and stay out of the line of fire.  That if anything would be smart.  Pick your battles and timing is everything.  2.  People's power and attitude can change over time. I've seen it plenty with others around my own jobs. See Russell's article below.  It doesn't mean Russell is right but the idea of someone becoming more power hungry over time isn't some type of human nature reach. Is it possible that someone in 2014 isn't that power hungry, it spikes up over time or they lay low for the right time to pounce. Heck yeah, why not, its very Shakespearian.   https://www.dchotread.com/2017/02/10/trouble-in-paradise Allen is a control freak and always has been. It’s funny. Mike Shanahan was viewed as a controlling, divisive force when he was here in Washington, but almost nobody (except me) batted an eyelash at the notion that Shanahan didn’t have the control and power everybody thought he did.   Everyone laughed and thought Allen oversaw pants, picnics, barbeques and beer choices. They dismissed the ruthless businessman that he was and still is. They discounted the ego-maniac that he is and has been. The problem is this: Allen has gained more power, more leverage, more control and therefore more ego because the Redskins have seen their franchise value go through the roof over his administration. Allen has every right to do whatever he wants: He’s in control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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