President Elect Trump Announces U.S. Election Riddled With Voter Fraud

[visionary]

 

[PleaseBlitz]

22 minutes ago, Hersh said:

Flag burning is a self defeating protest strategy. The moment you do it, no one pays attention to anything you say that might actually be important. 

 

Anyway, I don't think I'll ever know what to make of these four years. I will just do what I can to push back against all the terrible policies we are now staring at particularly in regard to the environment. 

 

Disagree.  It's one of those things that makes people pay attention, even if they hate you for it.  It's a lot like kneeling for the national anthem.  It may make people hate you, but they pay attention.  Only reason Trump sent that tweet is he saw some kids protest HIM by burning flags at various colleges.  He probably would not have mentioned it BUT FOR the flag burning aspect.  (So, if that is the case, note that Trump is advocating the jailing of those protesting him).

 

It was funny in the Colin Kaepernick thread awhile back, people were all pissed off and someone said "why doesn't he just donate his oodles of money to the causes he supports????"  In fact, he had donated a million dollars to various organizations ... nobody cared or paid attention to him for it.  He took a knee during the anthem and all of a sudden he's in the middle of a ****storm (of attention).   

 

Edit:  I guess my point is that it's a cheap way to get attention, but it works.  It's what you do if you can't articulate a point in a way that people will notice for the merits of that point.  It is the dick punch of protest tactics.  

[Hersh]

9 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Disagree.  It's one of those things that makes people pay attention, even if they hate you for it.  It's a lot like kneeling for the national anthem.  It may make people hate you, but they pay attention.  Only reason Trump sent that tweet is he saw some kids protest HIM by burning flags at various colleges.  He probably would not have mentioned it BUT FOR the flag burning aspect.  (So, if that is the case, note that Trump is advocating the jailing of those protesting him).

 

It was funny in the Colin Kaepernick thread awhile back, people were all pissed off and someone said "why doesn't he just donate his oodles of money to the causes he supports????"  In fact, he had donated a million dollars to various organizations ... nobody cared or paid attention to him for it.  He took a knee during the anthem and all of a sudden he's in the middle of a ****storm (of attention).   

 

Edit:  I guess my point is that it's a cheap way to get attention, but it works.  It's what you do if you can't articulate a point in a way that people will notice for the merits of that point.  It is the dick punch of protest tactics.  

 

I don't put burning the flag and kneeling for the anthem to be on the same level but...

People are paying attention to Kaepernick but are they paying attention for the reasons he does what he does? A great deal of reporter and attention was about the act and about the anthem itself. It seemed the intention behind his actions were discussed briefly but took a back burner quickly to the action itself.  I saw some thing about Hampshire College and how the flag was removed and there was no discussion about the actual events as to why and what happened. It's now only about the flag being removed and many people protesting in person or complaining online are only focused on that aspect of the story. 

 

[PleaseBlitz]

Just now, Hersh said:

 

I don't put burning the flag and kneeling for the anthem to be on the same level but...

People are paying attention to Kaepernick but are they paying attention for the reasons he does what he does? A great deal of reporter and attention was about the act and about the anthem itself. It seemed the intention behind his actions were discussed briefly but took a back burner quickly to the action itself.  I saw some thing about Hampshire College and how the flag was removed and there was no discussion about the actual events as to why and what happened. It's now only about the flag being removed and many people protesting in person or complaining online are only focused on that aspect of the story. 

 

 

I totally put them on the same level, but i'd be interested to hear why you don't.

 

And I see your point, but the fact is that nobody even knew that Kaep had donated A MILLION DOLLARS to charity supporting a cause, but everyone damn sure knows where he stands now.  Some people will ignore his motivations, and some people will actively turn against his cause, but it's really tough to talk about the act and the anthem without at least acknowledging why he (and many others) are doing what they are doing.  So, I think the bad aspects get 90% of the coverage sure, but that other 10% of coverage of the intentions behind the actions would not exist otherwise.  Fact is, Colin Kaepernick was BY FAR the most covered backup quarterback in the league this year (he has been the backup for more games than he's started), including Tony Romo.  

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 hour ago, Zguy28 said:

When you dispose of an old flag, you are supposed to discreetly burn it. 

Wrong.

 

if you are interested contact your local Boy Scout troop and ask if you can come watch a flag retirement.  Nothing discreet about it.  It's actually quite an interesting event.  I just took four old flags I had to my local troop and witnessed it.

Didn't Kaep not donate until AFTER he started kneeling and people were giving him crap?

[tshile]

I'm with @Hersh (don't let that sting, it's not that bad) I don't put those two in the same category. I certainly don't think people burning the flag get people to pay attention to their protest. Seems to me most people automatically shut them off as it illicites patriotic rage

[visionary]

1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Wrong.

 

if you are interested contact your local Boy Scout troop and ask if you can come watch a flag retirement.  Nothing discreet about it.  It's actually quite an interesting event.  I just took four old flags I had to my local troop and witnessed it.

I assume most people just throw their flags out.... 

[tshile]

2 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Wrong.

 

if you are interested contact your local Boy Scout troop and ask if you can come watch a flag retirement.  Nothing discreet about it.  It's actually quite an interesting event.  I just took four old flags I had to my local troop and witnessed it.

Didn't Kaep not donate until AFTER he started kneeling and people were giving him crap?

Yes. As someone whose done such, it's not about being discrete. It's about following was determined to be proper and honorary a long time ago, and is now tradition.

 

Whether separating the colors and burning in order is actually honorary or respectful or whatever is an interesting debate, I'm sure there is an origin I just can't remember it.

[PleaseBlitz]

5 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Wrong.

 

if you are interested contact your local Boy Scout troop and ask if you can come watch a flag retirement.  Nothing discreet about it.  It's actually quite an interesting event.  I just took four old flags I had to my local troop and witnessed it.

Didn't Kaep not donate until AFTER he started kneeling and people were giving him crap?

 

 

[tshile]

1 minute ago, visionary said:

I assume most people just throw their flags out.... 

Probably right.

 

Then again some people wear flags as clothing, others leave theirs out in the rain, or at night with no light on it, or up tattered.

 

Very few people seem to actually know flag etiquette, much less follow it, but it certainly does exist.

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 minute ago, visionary said:

I assume most people just throw their flags out.... 

I hope not but would suspect that's what most people do.  Sad really.  I guess I only know that you aren't supposed to from my time in the Boy Scouts.

[PleaseBlitz]

There is a Flag Code, officially on the books in the United States Code:

 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/chapter-1

 

 

[visionary]

Just now, tshile said:

Probably right.

 

Then again some people wear flags as clothing, others leave theirs out in the rain, or at night with no light on it, or up tattered.

 

Very few people seem to actually know flag etiquette, much less follow it, but it certainly does exist.

I guess.  The idea of fetishing or worshiping a flag somewhat creeps me out.   If it's an important piece of art, it would make more sense, but a mass produced piece of cloth?

[TheGreatBuzz]

There is a used car lot by my house that has about ten flags flying around it.  I noticed one day they were in very poor shape so I stopped in and told them they should replace them.  They pretty much told me to kick rocks.  So I posted a note on their Facebook page and said I would have a local radio station do a story on it if they weren't replaced.  They deleted my post but had brand new flags out the next day.  Now it looks like they replace them about every two months.  I haven't asked them what they do with the old ones.  I don't want to know.

[Hersh]

2 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

I totally put them on the same level, but i'd be interested to hear why you don't.

 

And I see your point, but the fact is that nobody even knew that Kaep had donated A MILLION DOLLARS to charity supporting a cause, but everyone damn sure knows where he stands now.  Some people will ignore his motivations, and some people will actively turn against his cause, but it's really tough to talk about the act and the anthem without at least acknowledging why he (and many others) are doing what they are doing.  So, I think the bad aspects get 90% of the coverage sure, but that other 10% of coverage of the intentions behind the actions would not exist otherwise.  Fact is, Colin Kaepernick was BY FAR the most covered backup quarterback in the league this year (he has been the backup for more games than he's started), including Tony Romo.  

 

I think the imagery of the two creates a much different emotional reaction. Kneeling is a much more peaceful protest to me and not as in your face as flag burning. I mean, how many millions of people hear the national anthem every week and barely pay attention to it? (Certainly millions do, but let's be real that many do not since it's heard over and over again) Outside of people in the military (and I don't know if they do this at home) but how many people stand up for it when it's on TV before say the Super Bowl? I just don't think kneeling carries as much weight as flag burning in a negative way. If two people were protesting in the same football arena, one kneeling and one burning a flag, no one would pay any attention to the person kneeling. 

 

 

[TheGreatBuzz]

Just now, visionary said:

I guess.  The idea of fetishing or worshiping a flag somewhat creeps me out.   If it's an important piece of art, it would make more sense, but a mass produced piece of cloth?

Have you ever had that "piece of cloth" folded and handed to you at a funeral?  Ever witnessed your best friend draped in one?  It changes your perspective.

[The Evil Genius]

Interesting how 4 bordering counties in 2 separate states decided the Presidency.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/11/29/how-the-electoral-college-gerrymanders-the-presidential-vote/

 

Quote

This map moves Lake County, Ill. to Wisconsin, turning that state blue. It moves Escambia, Santa Rosa and Okaloosa counties from the Florida panhandle to neighboring Alabama. That's enough to turn Florida blue. With victories in Wisconsin and Florida, Clinton squeaks to victory in the electoral college, 270 to 268.

Exact same votes, slightly different borders, radically different outcome: the capriciousness of the electoral college laid bare.

 

[PleaseBlitz]

1 minute ago, Hersh said:

 

I think the imagery of the two creates a much different emotional reaction. 

 

 

 

I seem to recall the emotional reaction to athletes kneeling during the national anthem being pretty aggressive.  

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/21/sport/colin-kaepernick-death-threats/

[tshile]

8 minutes ago, visionary said:

I guess.  The idea of fetishing or worshiping a flag somewhat creeps me out.   If it's an important piece of art, it would make more sense, but a mass produced piece of cloth?

Yeah...

I'm not one to be overly patriotic... the anthem protesting doesn't grind my gears outside of me not liking sports being used as a political platform, for example.

 

But as @TheGreatBuzz said, the flag has some pretty strong meaning to a lot of people. People dying, injured, etc. 

 

I hate flag burning and I hate that so many people are disrespectful of it. Consumerism-fueled capitalism taking advantage of it doesn't change that for me.

[TheGreatBuzz]

That it does.  I almost teared up typing that.  It's odd how much we worry about offending people sometimes but don't give a crap about it other times.

[visionary]

40 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Have you ever had that "piece of cloth" folded and handed to you at a funeral?  Ever witnessed your best friend draped in one?  It changes your perspective.

I'm sorry.  That's a good point.  I don't know that I would feel the same way (probably not), but I can understand why that would make it more important to you.  I can only imagine the sacrifice and tragedy so many have gone through to protect this country, it's flag, and it's citizens, so I can see why people would understandably be emotional over it.

 

 I have also seen where laws against burning flags or symbols (or insulting officials) of the state have led other countries and I don't think we can afford to go down that road.   And I have seen many people die horribly for the right to wave a flag they chose as their own or to protest one they hated.  And yes, this makes me a little emotional too.  

 

[Corcaigh]

8 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I haven't asked them what they do with the old ones.  I don't want to know.

 

You should ask them how much their sales would go up if they have 12 flags instead of 10. Or how much revenue they would lose with only five flags.

 

Surely someone has done the analysis.

[PCS]

22 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Wrong.

 

Not necessarily. Wrong and right. There is no specific rule on disposing of the flag except that it's to be done in a "dignified way,preferably by burning". The Boy Scouts,depending on troops, have some very nice ceremonies for retiring the flag. Those are a few ways it can be done,but one could choose to do so "discreetly" and do so in a dignified way and it would still be correct. 

As for the flag and anthem and such,already posted about that in the other thread. 

[Larry]

29 minutes ago, tshile said:

Probably right.

 

Then again some people wear flags as clothing, others leave theirs out in the rain, or at night with no light on it, or up tattered.

 

Very few people seem to actually know flag etiquette, much less follow it, but it certainly does exist.

 

Some even display the flag with the blue field on the top right.

[TheGreatBuzz]

3 minutes ago, PCS said:

 

Not necessarily. Wrong and right. There is no specific rule on disposing of the flag except that it's to be done in a "dignified way,preferably by burning". The Boy Scouts,depending on troops, have some very nice ceremonies for retiring the flag. Those are a few ways it can be done,but one could choose to do so "discreetly" and do so in a dignified way and it would still be correct. 

As for the flag and anthem and such,already posted about that in the other thread. 

The post I was responding to said it was "supposed" to be done discreetly.  I wasn't saying that it couldn't be discreet.  I was saying being discreet wasn't required.  

2 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Some even display the flag with the blue field on the top right.

The real question is do they know why it faces "backwards"?