Scott McCloughan: Honest Evaluation and Contract Renewal

[Hail2theSkins24]

1 minute ago, Wildbunny said:

 

You're tough here. Scherff is far from being average or above average. He's been nasty so far.

Now if you only take into account the last few games, guy is playing injured right now, as almost our whole OL.

 

Good point, he may be playing injured since whenever he left a game because of an ankle injury but played through it. But nasty is Marshall Yanda, Zach Martin, Scherff isn't close to them. I think this group gets far more credit than they deserve

[TimmySmith]

10 minutes ago, ExoDus84 said:

Uh, no. You can't label a talented WR as a bust because he suffered an injury and missed his rookie year. Cravens a bust? What makes you say that? He's been a solid contributor on defense, as a rookie. You're way off base here.

Uh, yeah, Doctson may never play a down in the NFL.  1st rounders should be immediate starters.  

 

Cravens was a 2nd round pick. Once again, 2nd rounders should be great contributors.  Cravens was off the field more than he was on.  Now we have no idea if he'll play again this year.  

 

And I didn't say they were busts, I said they were closer to busts than starters.  The Skins have nearly nothing to show for their top 2 draft picks.  Not good.

[bobandweave]

While the results aren't there yet it's way too early to know if those guys will become good later today

[Commander -JB-]

I honestly don't think McCloughan is gonna pay Cousins.  I think he'll let him walk.  The OL and supporting cast of receivers and TE's is top tier I think he'll rather spend 7-10 mill on a QB to come in than 25 mill for Cousins when he probably feels like Cousins would be pretty awful with a mediocre OL and receivers in a different scheme.

[clskinsfan]

20 minutes ago, -JB- said:

I honestly don't think McCloughan is gonna pay Cousins.  I think he'll let him walk.  The OL and supporting cast of receivers and TE's is top tier I think he'll rather spend 7-10 mill on a QB to come in than 25 mill for Cousins when he probably feels like Cousins would be pretty awful with a mediocre OL and receivers in a different scheme.

 

Their are no 7-10 million NFL starting QB's. They dont exist. Hell Ryan Fitzpatrick makes 12 mill per year. Kirk is getting payed. And he has earned the money. Edit: I should stipulate the only way you get a starter in that price range is on a rookie contract.

 

http://overthecap.com/position/quarterback/

[SkinsPassion4Life]

I'm not going to get into a back and forth again on this, but I'll repeat one thing I've said in the past...

 

GMSM has been here two years....he's had 17 draft picks and ample cap space.....he has brought in 3 quality starters in two years....

 

1) Josh Norman - We don't need SM to sign guys like Norman...I'm confident that Dan/Bruce had more to do with that anyway.

 

2) Brandon Scherff -  He's a good player, but it's hard for me to give SM credit for drafting a "good" Guard with the 5th pick

 

3) Jamison Crowder -  His best move and it's not even close.

 

His winning the Division last year and contending for a playoff sport has very little to do with him....let's be real, folks......look at what he's done...don't give him the credit for inheriting the work of others.

 

The GMSM/Gruden operation gets one more year to take it to the next level....

[Commander -JB-]

23 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Their are no 7-10 million NFL starting QB's. They dont exist. Hell Ryan Fitzpatrick makes 12 mill per year. Kirk is getting payed. And he has earned the money. Edit: I should stipulate the only way you get a starter in that price range is on a rookie contract.

 

http://overthecap.com/position/quarterback/

I hear you, however, I'm pretty sure that Kirk Cousins has proven that he's not worth 20 mill a year.  If that's the case, you certainly can't pay him more than that.  

[TimmySmith]

11 minutes ago, -JB- said:

I hear you, however, I'm pretty sure that Kirk Cousins has proven that he's not worth 20 mill a year.  If that's the case, you certainly can't pay him more than that.  

When he walks, Gruden will be right behind him and the Skins will have nothing to show for the last 3 years, and probably the next 3. 

[Commander -JB-]

2 minutes ago, TimmySmith said:

When he walks, Gruden will be right behind him and the Skins will have nothing to show for the last 3 years, and probably the next 3. 

I know that it seems like a nightmare scenario, but if Cousins is going to give us what he gave us last night consistently in big games, adios.  Not feeling so bad about passing on spending over 20 million a year for that.  It just is what it is.

[Burgold]

I think Scott has had one very good draft and one disappointing one. 

 

Scherff, Crowder, Smith, Jerrett, Arie have all contributed and played well. Plus, he snagged a couple in UDFA. 

 

I dont pin Jarret's injury on the GM nor am I sure that Smiths sophomore slump means he was a bad pick. 

[Skinsinparadise]

As for the 2016 draft. IMO

 

1st round Doctson is an incomplete.  If he's as good as Scot thinks he is, we will be liking this pick next season.  

2nd round Cravens -- IMO is a star in the making.

3rd round Fuller -- coaches seem to like him -- played well in some games and poorly in others.  Not bad for a late 3rd round pick.

5th round Ionnaidis -- rotational guy, Cooley for example thinks he's developing into a good NT-run stuffer type

6th round Sudfeld  -- he made the roster, the coaches like him.  I don't think people expected a 6th rounder to usurp Kirk for the starting job just like that.

7th round -- Daniels and Marshall both got hurt.

3 picks added to next season

Robert Kelley -- draft geeks me included are into seeing who we land after the draft -- don't get why these guys are ignored when we do draft reviews.  Would it have been better that Scot took him in the 7th round, then it would count otherwise it doesn't?

 

Lets start with statistically speaking the idea of success per round.  I've read a lot of criticism for example on the Ionnaidis pick.  Hey he's a 5th rounder -- and he's just a rotational player so far.  So Scot blew it, etc.  Well, statistically speaking the odds you are going to find a starter in the 5th round at DL is 13%.  Finding a rotational DL player who might develop into a decent NT is actually a good get.  Bill Parcells in his draft specials loved to say find 2 impact players in a draft you had a good one, find 3 you had a great draft. 

 

Also, you can't really judge this draft yet.  Yeah if Docston never starts again and crashes and the young guys don't keep improving, its a bomb.  But you can just as easily if not easier argue that odds of this being a good draft is very much in play.   If you find potentially your go to running back, top flight WR, future backup QB, stud safety, rotational DT, decent corner -- while adding 3 picks to the following draft in that process -- that would be a monster of a draft.  And its possible and arguably even probable because some of those moving parts are headed in that direction.   Even if we split the difference between an optimistic outlook and negative one -- it would be a good draft IMO. 

 

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2015/2/20/8072877/what-the-statistics-tell-us-about-the-draft-by-round

Historic Success Chart

The numbers show us the following outline for finding consistent starters:

1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)

2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB (25%)

3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%)

4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%)

5th Round - TE (32%) DB (17%) WR (16%) OL (16%) DL (13%) RB (9%) LB (4%) QB (0%)

6th Round - TE (26%) OL (16%) DL (13%) WR (9%) DB (8%) RB (6%) LB (5%) QB (0%)

7th Round - DB (11%) OL (9%) QB (6%) WR (5%) DL (3%) LB (2%) RB (0%) TE (0%)

 

 

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

I don't think Jones was that bad of a pick. I mean for a 3rd rounder he's had some good games. Couple 100+ yard games last year, 150 yard game this year. Its not like he's been a total bust like some of our past mid round picks.

I agree. He still has potential. I would hate to see him thrown on the scrap heap and have someone pick him up and make him into a real good back. He has size and speed. He just needs direction.

[JSSkinz]

Sm has been average but we need him, too small a sample size and we were a terrible team so he had his hands full when he came here.

[ExoDus84]

3 hours ago, TimmySmith said:

Uh, yeah, Doctson may never play a down in the NFL.  1st rounders should be immediate starters.  

 

Cravens was a 2nd round pick. Once again, 2nd rounders should be great contributors.  Cravens was off the field more than he was on.  Now we have no idea if he'll play again this year.  

 

And I didn't say they were busts, I said they were closer to busts than starters.  The Skins have nearly nothing to show for their top 2 draft picks.  Not good.

 

Injuries happen, man. You're writing guys off because they aren't all-stars in the first season. All-star rookies are the exception, not the rule, no matter where they were drafted or what position they play. Peyton manning played like ass his rookie year. I bet you would have labeled him a bust too.

 

Doctson may never play a down in the NFL? Can I use your "Jump to Conclusions" mat when you get a chance? I've been wanting to play.

[HTTRDynasty]

Raiders fans were calling for Reggie McKenzie's head 3 years into his tenure.  But the owner was patient and gave him time to turn over the roster and build it into the SB contender it is today.  McKenzie didn't hit on all his drafts, but he added depth through FA and the latter rounds of the draft (similar to McCloughan) and struck gold with his 2014 class (headlined by Carr and Mack) and hit again in 2015 (Cooper).  You don't need to hit on a superstar in every draft, but if you build up your team with solid starters in the meantime, the impact will be much greater once you do hit on the superstars.  McKenzie and McCloughan come from the same Ron Wolf scouting tree, and they think about roster construction in similar ways.  Give it time and I have no doubt we'll be as happy with Scot as Raiders fans are with Reggie today.

 

As for next season, we have just seen the Giants go from a historically bad defense to a top 5 defense over the course of one off-season.  It can be done.  We just need the right pieces, and I have faith McCloughan will get us those pieces this off-season.  Maybe we won't be top 5, but we can certainly be top 16 with solid upgrades to one spot each at DT, ILB, and S. 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Nobody except the lunatic fringe is calling for his head but the defense he trots out every week is ****ing embarrassing and is a huge red flag imo 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

2) Brandon Scherff -  He's a good player, but it's hard for me to give SM credit for drafting a "good" Guard with the 5th pick

 

3) Jamison Crowder -  His best move and it's not even close.

 

 

 

Scherff is looking better than just a good guard, he's been fairly noticed around the league this year, PFF has touted him as one of the best guards, and now just learned the dude is going to the pro bowl.  Guess who isn't going to the pro bowl?  Leonard Williams.

 

The pro bowl isn't the be all and end but especially for a guard who is only in their 2nd year -- that's some nice early recognition for his career. 

[SkinsPassion4Life]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Scherff is looking better than just a good guard, he's been fairly noticed around the league this year, PFF has touted him as one of the best guards, and now just learned the dude is going to the pro bowl.  Guess who isn't going to the pro bowl?  Leonard Williams.

 

The pro bowl isn't the be all and end but especially for a guard who is only in their 2nd year -- that's some nice early recognition for his career. 

 

I'm not giving any GM props for drafting a Guard with the 5th pick.......Leonard Williams isn't going to the pro bowl, but Vic Beasley is.    And I would still take Williams over Scherff.....I'm not bashing Scherff..I like the guy

[Warhead36]

Nobody has a perfect draft record. Even Ozzie Newsome drafted Kyle Boller in round 1. But McC has tremendously upgraded the depth and bottom end of our roster. Where he hasn't quite been as successful is finding the blue chip playmakers. Scherff has been a stud and looks like he'll be a Pro Bowl mainstay for the next decade but a G isn't as impactful, and Doctson got hurt. But I'm high on his other picks. Crowder will be a very good WR for a long time. Cravens will be a star once we figure out how to best use him. Jarrett was a great pick last year but unfortunately suffered a gruesome injury that ended his career, not much a GM can do about that.

 

McC gambled last offseason on the D and it didn't pan out, but I don't blame him for not spending a ton of money(until Norman became available who is clearly worth every penny). We still didn't know what we had in Cousins and we were banking on some young guys taking that next step up which they haven't(well one did in Murphy, but Breeland and P. Smith didn't). Also Gallette getting hurt again. The truth is under McC we will be primarily a draft focused team which is the way the good teams are built, but I do hope we focus more on D this time even if it means we pass on the absolute BPA on our board.

 

I love having McC as a GM and hope he stays for a really really long time. The best teams keep the same good people and maintain continuity, you get nowhere changing every other year even if you have the occasional off year.

[Skinsinparadise]

7 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

I'm not giving any GM props for drafting a Guard with the 5th pick.......Leonard Williams isn't going to the pro bowl, but Vic Beasley is.    And I would still take Williams over Scherff.....I'm not bashing Scherff..I like the guy

 

  Pro bowler?  Big deal.  Hard to name a top 5 pick who isn't a pro bowler.   The Giants did great with the next O lineman taken top 10 -- Erick Flowers, he's been fantastic.   If your point is squarely on the position he plays, as you know the dude can play tackle -- maybe he will someday play RT.   That's just a function of Moses being so good that camp.  Sarcasm isn't directed at you, just having fun to make a point and that is to each their own but in my opinion you are over the top in your criticism on Scot.   Facts:  only 1 other pro bowler in the top 5.  3 in the top 10, Scherff is one of them.   Flowers looks like a major bust.  Scherff isn't IMO just a good guard as you like to say -- many say (some of it is metrics wise, pro bowl is based mostly on peers opinion) but a great guard.

 

Dallas for example has proven having a great interior O line is a big deal.  I gather from talking to Scot it wouldn't shock me if he'd like to add another Scherff type on the interior.   Dallas is winning arguably because of their killer O line and their interior is a big part of that.  Big O line.  Big D line.  Big O line they are close.  Big D line, we got ways to go.

[RedBeast]

16 hours ago, Hail2theSkins24 said:

 

Good point, he may be playing injured since whenever he left a game because of an ankle injury but played through it. But nasty is Marshall Yanda, Zach Martin, Scherff isn't close to them. I think this group gets far more credit than they deserve

Seems to me that ProBowl is pretty good, no?

[skinfan2k]

55 minutes ago, RedBeast said:

Seems to me that ProBowl is pretty good, no?

Its funny because most fans have never actually watched those others play but want Schefff to be like them.  They just listen to the pundits who tell them those guys are nasty

[RedBeast]

“I know this: when you play the Redskins this year, you’re going to know you played us,” McCloughan said. “You’re going to feel us from the standpoint of being physical. The next morning, you’re going to be sore.”

 

With this statement and our play this year? I am not sure if our GM has achieved this goal to date. I am sure that our D-line is not putting a real hurt on anyone, and our ILB's and Safeties don't seem to be knocking anyone into the black and blue either. My hope is that this is more than evident and that it does nothing but piss GMSM off. With the amount of picks that we have and our cap space available? My bet is that GMSM hates mud on his face and is going to right the D side of the ship right quick. I fully expect a much different face for our D next year, and if he keeps feeding the D talent and Barry can't do his job? I don't think that GMSM has any qualms in making changes, where changes are needed.

[SkinsPassion4Life]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

  Pro bowler?  Big deal.  Hard to name a top 5 pick who isn't a pro bowler.   The Giants did great with the next O lineman taken top 10 -- Erick Flowers, he's been fantastic.   If your point is squarely on the position he plays, as you know the dude can play tackle -- maybe he will someday play RT.   That's just a function of Moses being so good that camp.  Sarcasm isn't directed at you, just having fun to make a point and that is to each their own but in my opinion you are over the top in your criticism on Scot.   Facts:  only 1 other pro bowler in the top 5.  3 in the top 10, Scherff is one of them.   Flowers looks like a major bust.  Scherff isn't IMO just a good guard as you like to say -- many say (some of it is metrics wise, pro bowl is based mostly on peers opinion) but a great guard.

 

Dallas for example has proven having a great interior O line is a big deal.  I gather from talking to Scot it wouldn't shock me if he'd like to add another Scherff type on the interior.   Dallas is winning arguably because of their killer O line and their interior is a big part of that.  Big O line.  Big D line.  Big O line they are close.  Big D line, we got ways to go.

 

All well and good....and even if we agree that Scherff was a great pick, it still doesn't change SM's overall decision making.....acquired 3 starters in two years....a few other draft picks still have potential....mostly terrible in FA.

 

You talk about the D-Line having a long way to go.....look at his 4 year track record as a GM when it comes to the D-Line.....it's not good.

[Hail2theSkins24]

2 hours ago, skinfan2k said:

Its funny because most fans have never actually watched those others play but want Schefff to be like them.  They just listen to the pundits who tell them those guys are nasty

 

Lol, please. Scherff has been solid at times, and bad at times. He's had some nasty pancake blocks so I assume that's why you think he's dominant? He's not even close to Yanda or Martin, don't make assumptions that fit your narrative