NBC News: SC upholds affirmative action college admissions

[Major Harris]

On a macro level, it's very easy to pick out. If you've lived it on the micro level, it's not so easy.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Just pointing out, regarding the notion of "he got where he is because of AA", I can think of at least two ways of looking at that. 

 

Hypothetical:  Imagine some person who speculates that Colin Powell got his stars because of AA. 

 

Not that could be a way of someone saying that he's not qualified, and was promoted because his race overrode his lack of qualification. 

 

Or it could indicate the notion that Powell was perfectly qualified.  But that, without AA, he would have been denied promotion because of his race. 

This is something that can't be stated enough.  When something is said, it is often a persons preconceived notions that decide how to take it with little regard to what the person actually meant.  More or less why I haven't posted much in here.  Too scared of being labeled a racist. 

[SemperFi Skins]

How about the Rooney Rule...

 

It's been stated by many thats  how Mike Tomlin got the job in Pitt... He's a damn good coach though, so it's a shame that's how it came to be.

[Gamebreaker]

In regards to people getting jobs, I've used this stat many times, it is more likely that a white man with a criminal record gets a job than a black man without a criminal record in this country. Pretending like people are playing the victim for pointing out obvious disparities is ridiculous.

[Major Harris]

In regards to people getting jobs, I've used this stat many times, it is more likely that a white man with a criminal record gets a job than a black man without a criminal record in this country. Pretending like people are playing the victim for pointing out obvious disparities is ridiculous.

Can you cite that? Don't doubt it but would like to see it.

[Gamebreaker]

Can you cite that? Don't doubt it but would like to see it.

Yes, I back up my statements.

https://csgjusticecenter.org/reentry/posts/researchers-examine-effects-of-a-criminal-record-on-prospects-for-employment/

"The results of these studies were startling. Among those with no criminal record, white applicants were more than twice as likely to receive a callback relative to equally qualified black applicants. Even more troubling, whites with a felony conviction fared just as well, if not better, than a black applicant with a clean background."

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/

[Major Harris]

Thanks you

[Kilmer17]

Is there any study out there that tries to examine WHY people hold racist views?

[Major Harris]

Yes, I back up my statements.

https://csgjusticecenter.org/reentry/posts/researchers-examine-effects-of-a-criminal-record-on-prospects-for-employment/

"The results of these studies were startling. Among those with no criminal record, white applicants were more than twice as likely to receive a callback relative to equally qualified black applicants. Even more troubling, whites with a felony conviction fared just as well, if not better, than a black applicant with a clean background."

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/

I will add that is a pretty alarming stat. Not overly surprising, but alarming. Definitely shows that we have a long way to go.

[grego]

Can one be against race being a factor in hiring and not racist?

Or are you inherently racist by feeling that way?

[tshile]

Can one be against race being a factor in hiring and not racist?

Or are you inherently racist by feeling that way?

Just my opinion (because that's what we need, more of my opinions) you can be against race being a factor in hiring/enrollment so long as you recognize there are issues in our country and want to focus on other aspects of society (say - poor public school systems.) And when I say focus on that, I mean *really* focus on that.

If you just want AA gone and declare everything equal and fair... well you might not be racist, but I would think ignorant or at best naive are your only other options.

[Larry]

Can one be against race being a factor in hiring and not racist?

Or are you inherently racist by feeling that way?

I certainly think it's possible. Heck, I wish we could get rid of it.

(Then again, I've been aware for decades that I'm prejudiced. I hate it. Try to fight it. But it's there, inside me.)

[chipwhich]

(Then again, I've been aware for decades that I'm prejudiced. I hate it. Try to fight it. But it's there, inside me.)

 

Everyone is prejudiced.  To try to fight it is silly.  You can't.

[Larry]

Embrace your anger. Join me, and we shall rule the Galaxy.

Ok, so I paraphrased you, a teensy bit.

[grego]

(Then again, I've been aware for decades that I'm prejudiced. I hate it. Try to fight it. But it's there, inside me.)

I know you've said this before. I still think that racial prejudice gets conflated with cultural prejudice.

I don't know if this is an American thing, in terms of how race is discussed, or what. These days, Its practically mandatory to believe that every thing we say or do is motivated by racial bias. And if you don't accept that, you're part of the problem.

Maddening and interesting.

But it seems so backwards, since America as a whole- and much of Montgomery County in particular, where I live - is so diverse.

Look at people from X race or ethnic group from a particular place in the world, then look at that same ethnic group in America. Youll have a different picture. Then imagine these people in X part of America (North, South, Midwest, Florida , inner city, country, suburb) and you'll probably have a different expectation of behaviors or cultural norms associated with these people.

Maybe it's human nature to simplify or compartmentalize things that we're trying to understand and this causes people to automatically associate good or bad qualities to ethnicities, regardless of where people are actually from.

Just thinking out loud more than anything.....

[Kosher Ham]

Yeah, that would be prejudice...

 

Every single person has prejudice. That does not equal or assume racist. 

[Popeman38]

There are a lot of factors that enter the equation, but race is the root of it. It is cyclic. Minorities from poor backgrounds in inferior education systems for the most part don't end up anymore educated than their poorly educated parents before them. Which continues the process as they become adults, with dead-end or underpaid jobs, have families and raise children with the same hurdles they went through.

Does that not apply to the rural, mostly white poor areas, like Appalachia? That indicates the problem doesn't BEGIN with race but with economics. Not saying race doesn't factor in, but like was said earlier, it is a factor of a factor of a factor.

[Bozo the kKklown]

Does that not apply to the rural, mostly white poor areas, like Appalachia? That indicates the problem doesn't BEGIN with race but with economics. Not saying race doesn't factor in, but like was said earlier, it is a factor of a factor of a factor.

Are you saying racism doesn't exist along with being poor?

No one is ignoring poverty and poor whites plight but racism is also a thing. It's also something that hampers upward mobility in our society.

[TheGreatBuzz]

No one is saying racism doesn't exist. But you don't fix racism by doing something based solely on the color of one's skin.

[PokerPacker]

No one is saying racism doesn't exist. But you don't fix racism by doing something based solely on the color of one's skin.

So you're saying treating someone differently because of the color of their skin won't fix racism?

[Larry]

No one is saying racism doesn't exist. But you don't fix racism by doing something based solely on the color of one's skin.

I disagree. I think it's actually possible (at least in theory) where that's exactly what you do.

Analogy: I'm selecting widgets. Every day, thousands of widgets get loaded into my grading machine. Every widget candidate gets assigned a numerical score, by the grading machine. And I buy the ones with the highest score.

After a while, I notice a pattern. The widget candidates that are being loaded into the machine, are 10% black. But the widgets that are selected by the machine are 4% black.

The machine is not designed to pay attention to the color of the widget. In fact, it's illegal for the machine to pay attention to the color of the widget. but nonetheless, it is a documented fact that black widgets don't get picked nearly as often, by the machine.

 

Now, the machine isn't blind.  It has eyes.  Because appearance of the widget is one of the criteria it's selecting by.  But it's been told not to pay attention to color. 

 

If I go into the programming of that machine, and I add in a fudge factor to the programming that says "if the widget is plack, then add X points to it's score", (resulting in black widgets being selected as often as other widgets), then

 

1)  Am I adding in widget color into a process that didn't include color, before? 

2)  Or am I compensating for a defect in the machine that I can't pin down exactly, but which I can prove exists, somewhere? 

[TheGreatBuzz]

Well one I can make a hypothetical to back up any scenerio. Two maybe you should look at why you are picking less black widgets and fix that problem instead of making you machine picks things it wouldn't solely based on their color.

[Larry]

Well one I can make a hypothetical to back up any scenerio. Two maybe you should look at why you are picking less black widgets and fix that problem instead of making you machine picks things it wouldn't solely based on their color.

Got it.

We should simply announce that racism does not exist in any way whatsoever. (Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary). And instead command the Universe find some other explanation.

[PokerPacker]

Got it.

We should simply announce that racism does not exist in any way whatsoever. (Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary). And instead command the Universe find some other explanation.

That's not at all what he said.

[Larry]

That's not at all what he said.

 

That's exactly what he said. 

 

If the system is discriminating against blacks, then you should find some other explanation for why it's doing it.  (And do absolutely nothing to correct the problem, until this miracle occurs.)

. . . maybe you should look at why you are picking less black widgets and fix that problem instead of making you machine picks things it wouldn't solely based on their color.