NBC News: SC upholds affirmative action college admissions

[Gamebreaker]

I think the problem is that we cant seem to come to agreement on how extensive the problem is. I think if that study is, indeed, accurate and representative of united states, then that's a big, big, big problem.

police brutality, shootings of unarmed blacks by white police officers, is another issue that suffers from this. on the one side, its a huge issue- one of the biggest problems in American society. on the other, its a tiny fraction of violence in the black community. and, like any issue regarding race, if you question it, youre 'part of the problem', 4 words which are practically guaranteed to shut down hearts and minds, along with any potential progress that may have been made.

its just difficult to question of criticize any part of things like affirmative action or BLM without being labeled an uncle tom or a bigot. its an emotional issue. people generally pick a side and cling to it as if it were the last sip of water on earth. but if you cant agree on the extent of the problem, its going to be impossible to come to any agreement on a solution.

that's not to say there aren't people that say "this problem doesn't exist"- of course there are.. but, I don't think every criticism should warrant a response that puts that person on that category.

I understand what your saying, but nearly every time I've heard someone mention black-on-black crime in regards to police brutality and like, it's almost always a cop out and here's why: what exactly does "black civilian" killing "black civilian" have to do with "white police officer killing black civilian"? They are unrelated issues. And usually, the reasoning behind it being brought up is the inaccurate assumption that African Americans don't care about stopping crime and violence within their own communities. Yet a simple courtesy check on Google would show you there are plenty of organizations doing just that...it just isn't publicized, and why isn't it publicized? Honestly, the truth is people outside the black community only care about black-on-black crime as a talking point and nothing more.

Chicago is an easy target of these types of arguments, yet not many people know about Kids Off The Block, a NPO that has been working on decreasing violence in Chicago for 13 years. If some people are so concerned with black-on-black crime how come they don't know anything about groups doing exactly what they suggest isn't happening?

I'm not saying that is you, just speaking in general about these kinds of discussions.

[grego]

agree with you both that organizations fighting things like gang violence aren't getting the publicity they should (probably cuz it doesnt get clicks like hot button race vs race topics do, among other things).

 

still, it wouldn't hurt if some more well known people helped push this agenda. instead, the headline today is Jesse Williams speech at the BET awards talking about tamir rices shooting as a 'drive by'.

 

plenty of blame to go around here.

[Bozo the kKklown]

agree with you both that organizations fighting things like gang violence aren't getting the publicity they should (probably cuz it doesnt get clicks like hot button race vs race topics do, among other things).

 

still, it wouldn't hurt if some more well known people helped push this agenda. instead, the headline today is Jesse Williams speech at the BET awards talking about tamir rices shooting as a 'drive by'.

 

plenty of blame to go around here.

Well it was a drive-by if you saw the video.

And well known people have pushed agenda movement on black on black violence. It just doesnt register in national media because the national media do not care about black people unless they have a ball or some violent act affects white people.

Same with Latinos as well, except when people talk about immigration.

I have no idea who you are blaming unless you are "blaming" Jesse Williams for discussing police brutality in a audience thats just there for entertainment?

[grego]

Well it was a drive-by if you saw the video.

And well known people have pushed the agenda. It just doesnt register in national media because the national media do not care about black people unless they have a ball or some violent act affects white people.

Same with Latinos as well, except when people talk about immigration.

I have no idea who you are blaming unless you are "blaming" Jesse Williams for discussing police brutality in a audience thats just there for entertainment?

 

 

yes, ive seen the video and no I wouldn't classify it as a 'drive by', but I realize its an effective rhetorical tool meant to arouse emotion, which is what he was going for.

 

i haven't heard much talk about black violence from black celebrities (unless you mean someone like larry elder). i get that we can find a nugget here and there, but we agree its not a 'sexy' topic, such as BLM, even if we don't necessarily agree on how they rank in terms of overall importance.

 

'blame' wasn't the best word for me to use. again, if he'd stood up there and talked about black on black violence or fatherless households in the black community, nobodys clapping.

[NoCalMike]

Well I think it would be assumed that folks are concerned with crime period.  I am concerned with crime in my neighborhood across the board.  The police issue is something completely different because it deals with the folks who are supposed to be protecting & serving.

 

I just find it ludicrous to suggest that folks "don't care" about gang violence, or violence perpetrated by their peers simply because they are protesting over a completely different issue.

[grego]

Well I think it would be assumed that folks are concerned with crime period.  I am concerned with crime in my neighborhood across the board.  The police issue is something completely different because it deals with the folks who are supposed to be protecting & serving.

 

I just find it ludicrous to suggest that folks "don't care" about gang violence, or violence perpetrated by their peers simply because they are protesting over a completely different issue.

 

 

i totally get that- one does not preclude the other. (this is what i get for trying to post and work ) i think, ulitimately, it gets back to what i said earlier. the problem is more one of 'degree' rather than 'yes or no'. how important is 'unarmed black teenagers being gunned down by police' as opposed to blacks murdering other blacks in the inner city? on the one side, theres a (relatively) small number, but the potential for abuse of power and a race component boogeyman everyone can rally around, on the other, theres this huge number of killings, but it cant be racist cuz its one race killing its own people. its just not sexy.

 

few people are saying that a policeman shooting an unarmed black teenager isn't a problem. is it a systematic problem that's linked to inherent racism? people will disagree on that.

 

now, I'm totally off topic and cant remember what my point was.

 

yikes. time for a nap

[Bozo the kKklown]

yes, ive seen the video and no I wouldn't classify it as a 'drive by', but I realize its an effective rhetorical tool meant to arouse emotion, which is what he was going for.

 

i haven't heard much talk about black violence from black celebrities (unless you mean someone like larry elder). i get that we can find a nugget here and there, but we agree its not a 'sexy' topic, such as BLM, even if we don't necessarily agree on how they rank in terms of overall importance.

 

'blame' wasn't the best word for me to use. again, if he'd stood up there and talked about black on black violence or fatherless households in the black community, nobodys clapping.

You just are not in the community so you have no idea what you are talking about.

Like I said in my prior post, mainstream America does not care about black issues unless it affects white people.

and LOL at mentioning Larry Elder.

The irony is why is there no conversation on white on white violence? Since 85% of violent crime committed by white people is done to a white person?

Everyone is concerned with crime and how to lessen it. I have no idea why you felt the need to bring it up unless you are doing that distracting from the convo on Affirmative Action thing that people that think along those lines love to do.

[grego]

You just are not in the community so you have no idea what you are talking about.

Like I said in my prior post, mainstream America does not care about black issues unless it affects white people.

and LOL at mentioning Larry Elder.

The irony is why is there no conversation on white on white violence? Since 85% of violent crime committed by white people is done to a white person?

Everyone is concerned with crime and how to lessen it. I have no idea why you felt the need to bring it up unless you are doing that distracting from the convo on Affirmative Action thing that people that think along those lines love to do.

 

 

easy, killer. I'm not the enemy

[Gamebreaker]

This is off-topic:

So I'm just getting around to watching his speech Jesse Williams did last night. I'm not sure how people can complain about what he said, my only gripe is the slight shade he made towards those who pray for better outcomes.

But I hope he likes being an activist, because he'll never work in Hollywood again.

[grego]

But I hope he likes being an activist, because he'll never work in Hollywood again.

Tyler Perry is practically a billionaire and has never made an actual funny movie.

Williams will be ok.

[Bozo the kKklown]

This is off-topic:

So I'm just getting around to watching his speech Jesse Williams did last night. I'm not sure how people can complain about what he said, my only gripe is the slight shade he made towards those who pray for better outcomes.

But I hope he likes being an activist, because he'll never work in Hollywood again.

He been an activist for years

[NoCalMike]

i totally get that- one does not preclude the other. (this is what i get for trying to post and work ) i think, ulitimately, it gets back to what i said earlier. the problem is more one of 'degree' rather than 'yes or no'. how important is 'unarmed black teenagers being gunned down by police' as opposed to blacks murdering other blacks in the inner city? on the one side, theres a (relatively) small number, but the potential for abuse of power and a race component boogeyman everyone can rally around, on the other, theres this huge number of killings, but it cant be racist cuz its one race killing its own people. its just not sexy.

 

few people are saying that a policeman shooting an unarmed black teenager isn't a problem. is it a systematic problem that's linked to inherent racism? people will disagree on that.

 

now, I'm totally off topic and cant remember what my point was.

 

yikes. time for a nap

 

I can understand where you are coming from in asking the question, but I suppose I would keep up my bad habit of answering a question with a question by asking how much you've seen the media take a pro-active approach to actually cover the people, programs, organizations, outreach etc etc in these communities that are actually trying to solve the problem?  I bet we would find out how horrible under-funded and handcuffed these efforts are. It's just a hunch. I mean no is really stopping cable news rooms from seeking these stories out. except maybe those in the marketing department that are concerned about narratives that drive ratings?

[Gamebreaker]

Tyler Perry is practically a billionaire and has never made an actual funny movie.

Williams will be ok.

Tyler Perry also doesn't make speeches like that.

[grego]

I can understand where you are coming from in asking the question, but I suppose I would keep up my bad habit of answering a question with a question by asking how much you've seen the media take a pro-active approach to actually cover the people, programs, organizations, outreach etc etc in these communities that are actually trying to solve the problem?  I bet we would find out how horrible under-funded and handcuffed these efforts are. It's just a hunch. I mean no is really stopping cable news rooms from seeking these stories out. except maybe those in the marketing department that are concerned about narratives that drive ratings?

 

 

100% agree. 'sexy' sells, and that kind of activism doesn't sell.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Leaving race off application forms still doesn't prevent race or culture playing a factor when you can sometimes tell the race by just reading the applicant's name.

Maybe my feelings are because of the "bubble" I'm in.  The military doesn't have race on things like evals and such that effect your promotion.  I RARELY here anyone complain about something being racist.  Promotion % per race at on par with % of that race in the military.  So what are we doing right that so many others can't figure out.

[PeterMP]

Maybe my feelings are because of the "bubble" I'm in.  The military doesn't have race on things like evals and such that effect your promotion.  I RARELY here anyone complain about something being racist.  Promotion % per race at on par with % of that race in the military.  So what are we doing right that so many others can't figure out.

 

The military does a lot to address race in promotion.  They have a whole Office of Diversity Management and Equal Opportunity, but I believe your statement is still false:

 

But I don't think your last statement is actually true:

 

https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/R44321.pdf

 

"For example, those of Hispanic origin account for about 16% of the population and 13% of the active duty enlisted corps. Hispanic service members account for 6% of the officer corps and less than 2% of General/Flag officers."

 

Now, it does go onto describe how to be an officer you have to have a college degree in most cases and when compared to the general population of percentage of Hispanics with a college degree that might explain the 6%, but that doesn't explain the drop from 6 to 2% (and I doubt the first part because the US population number includes people that things like felons and aren't eligible for entering the military so if we think about in terms of % of people that are eligible to serve in the military the number is going to be higher).

 

Further:

 

"A 2014 study of Air Force promotion rates found no evidence of differential rates of promotion by race/ethnicity for approximately 93% of the cases observed, suggesting overall fairness in the promotion system.100 However, where disparities existed, whites had more favorable promotion outcomes than African Americans or Hispanics with similar characteristics."

 

Which certainly sounds like in 7% of cases whites have an advantage. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

A lot more goes into officer promotions, especially Flag promotions and I'm not as much of an expert on those so I won't discuss that.  I just don't know enough.  Through enlisted promotions though, which is the majority of the military, I believe the numbers are a lot better.  One thing you have to consider when looking at these is WHY a person joined the military.  Many of people of different ethnicities join for things like citizenship.  They don't stick around as long so it takes their promotion numbers down because they got out instead. But based on the color of their skin, they get labeled "African Amercian" even though they may be from Haiti.  In 14 years, I have never seen a person classified "white" that joined to get citizenship, though I'm sure they exist.  Also, the briefs I have seen have been DOD wide, so I don't know as many details as to why the Air Force numbers look different.  But I believe DOD wide the % looks a lot better.

[Predicto]

The Air Force numbers might be skewed by religion.   It is my (admittedly not deep) understanding that the Air Force officer corps is heavily populated with evangelical Christians, and that having the correct religious views has a major effect on your chances of promotion.   This is not so for the other branches of the military.

[grego]

In 14 years, I have never seen a person classified "white" that joined to get citizenship, though I'm sure they exist.

Hi there

OK, truth be told, I didn't join the Marines to 'get' my citizenship (since my dad was naturalized when I was 13, therefore, kind of making me a citizen at that time, but not quite. I never got a certificate of citizenship - not til about 6 weeks ago, actually. 32 years later).

But I could have.

I did join to serve my adopted country.

[TheGreatBuzz]

The Air Force numbers might be skewed by religion. It is my (admittedly not deep) understanding that the Air Force officer corps is heavily populated with evangelical Christians, and that having the correct religious views has a major effect on your chances of promotion. This is not so for the other branches of the military.

I never heard this, though that isn't me saying it's not true.

Hi there

OK, truth be told, I didn't join the Marines to 'get' my citizenship (since my dad was naturalized when I was 13, therefore, kind of making me a citizen at that time, but not quite. I never got a certificate of citizenship - not til about 6 weeks ago, actually. 32 years later).

But I could have.

I did join to serve my adopted country.

So they do exist! Sorta.......

I just meant I have met many others of different skin tones who say getting citizenship is at least one reason they hkined. Not saying a desire to serve isn't part of it also.

[tshile]

My nephew is in boot camp right now.

After they yell at you, they have to come back and apologize. They have to say they didn't mean to personally offend them.

Not kidding. Another family member, who's and officer in another branch, said they do the same thing now.

The modern soldier is a delicate flower.

lol

[TheGreatBuzz]

Really? What branch? Sounds like air force.

[tshile]

Really? What branch? Sounds like air force.

Well, it's two branches that I've been told it's going on in now.

[PeterMP]

I'm pretty sure the numbers given for Hispanics are for the military in general.  The quote about the AF is a separate piece of information.

 

The text highlighted Hispanics, but if you look at the the Table 5 in the document, the same seems to be true for others.

 

17.3% of all active duty are black, but only 8.6% officers (now again, you get into the issue of the a college education).

 

And I'm not saying there isn't a reason for it, but just the facts don't seem to bear out the original statement.