NBC News: SC upholds affirmative action college admissions

[TheGreatBuzz]

Nope. Not what I said. You read something with your mind already made up and already decided what I meant. This is why progress doesn't get made with AA, racism, abortion, gun control, etc.......

[grego]

This is why progress doesn't get made with AA, racism, abortion, gun control, etc.......

Truest statement in the thread.

[dfitzo53]

Larry, I'm trying to get from what he said to what you apparently thought he said, and it would take some legendary, Mary-Lou-Retton-in-the-'84-Olympics mental gymnastics.

He simply said that it is better to fix the actual problem than jury-rig a solution.

(This is completely separate from my own views on affirmative action, which are not fully developed.)

[Bozo the kKklown]

No one is saying racism doesn't exist. But you don't fix racism by doing something based solely on the color of one's skin.

Affirmative Action does not do this. The irony is racism has always afforded the best opportunities to white skin yet only minorities complain about this and one of he few programs to remedy it, and doesn't do a good job of it, people want to take it down.

[TheGreatBuzz]

So the best way to fix racism is........reverse racism?

[Larry]

He simply said that it is better to fix the actual problem than jury-rig a solution.

Do we all agree that "the actual problem" is that "racism is all over the place"?

[Larry]

So the best way to fix racism is........reverse racism?

Fix? Of course not.

Compensate for, until such time as racism isn't a problem any more? I can't think of a better solution.

AA absolutely, positively, will never FIX racism. (Although I think we've been seeing, for some time, that racism is really very prevalent. That all that's happened, since the 60s (if not sooner), is that racists have been forced to suppress expressing racism. And that they resent the pressure of having to suppress it.)

[Bozo the kKklown]

So the best way to fix racism is........reverse racism?

The problem here is you fundamentally don't know what Affirmative Action is.

Fix? Of course not.

Compensate for, until such time as racism isn't a problem any more? I can't think of a better solution.

AA absolutely, positively, will never FIX racism. (Although I think we've been seeing, for some time, that racism is really very prevalent. That all that's happened, since the 60s (if not sooner), is that racists have been forced to suppress expressing racism. And that they resent the pressure of having to suppress it.)

It's not resentment. They don't want anyone else at the table except those that look like them.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Is it possible you think racism is still a bigger problem than it actually is and now today is more about class-ism?

[Gamebreaker]

He simply said that it is better to fix the actual problem than jury-rig a solution.

)

Well how do you do that? I don't believe you should do nothing until you find the God Mode solution to the problem. The problem is racism, how do you stop people from being racist when looking over job or college applications?

[Gamebreaker]

Is it possible you think racism is still a bigger problem than it actually is and now today is more about class-ism?

I provided ample evidence in this very thread of how prevalent racism is, how is any of that class-ism? It isn't class-ism that a Hispanic man will get no phone calls while getting his resume out there, then get a dozen two weeks after making his name look less ethnic(real story not a hypothetical).

Addressing and dealing with racism starts with acknowledging it.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Well I would contend that many of the examples in this thread could just as easily be attributed to class-ism (or whatever you want to call it) and not racism.  Your example of the Hispanic guy seeking a job I'm sure does happen.  If you think the goal of no racism whatsoever will be achieved anywhere in the near future, you are kidding yourself.  But don't think it's only "whitey" holding the black man down.  There are blacks who don't like whites, Mexicans that don't like Cubans, Russians that don't like Asians (oh the irony), and so on.  And when in a position of power, they will have colored opinions, though on what level is determined by the individual.  But there are more than enough things in place to prevent overt racism.  So just helping blacks from whitey is just treating a small symptom instead of the overall illness.  And that illness is poor education and such at low income levels that forces people of all colors into that never ending cycle.

[Larry]

Well I would contend that many of the examples in this thread could just as easily be attributed to class-ism (or whatever you want to call it) and not racism.

Yes, many examples of racism could be explained as classism, too.

 

Although I'll point out that we've had another example in this thread.  This time, a study involving multiple people, and multiple employers.  Studies involving artificially-constructed identities with identical job qualifications (but different skin colors).  

 

Yes, it's very hard to pick one particular case, and conclusively prove that it was due to racism, and absolutely nothing else. 

 

OTOH, it's ridiculously easy to point at lots of broad, aggregate, statistics, and come to the conclusion that some of that is absolutely due to broad, systemic, racism, all over "the system" 

 

[The 12th Commandment]

I think the motivation for AA is to get different people in the workplace and wear down the prejudices with familiarity.  A noble cause and not without some common sense.  Also not without some sacrificial lambs.  

 

I was a product of bussing in the Alexandria school district in the 70's and bussing was done for the same reason.  I'm not sure it worked though.  Do they still do bussing?

[Bozo the kKklown]

Is it possible you think racism is still a bigger problem than it actually is and now today is more about class-ism?

i mean a study was done to show that a white man with a felony conviction was able to get a call back before a black man with a clean record for a job interview.

 

If you want to put your head in the sand and pretend its not a problem, then you are part of the problem.

Well I would contend that many of the examples in this thread could just as easily be attributed to class-ism (or whatever you want to call it) and not racism.  Your example of the Hispanic guy seeking a job I'm sure does happen.  If you think the goal of no racism whatsoever will be achieved anywhere in the near future, you are kidding yourself.  But don't think it's only "whitey" holding the black man down.  There are blacks who don't like whites, Mexicans that don't like Cubans, Russians that don't like Asians (oh the irony), and so on.  And when in a position of power, they will have colored opinions, though on what level is determined by the individual.  But there are more than enough things in place to prevent overt racism.  So just helping blacks from whitey is just treating a small symptom instead of the overall illness.  And that illness is poor education and such at low income levels that forces people of all colors into that never ending cycle.

who said anything about "whitey"?

 

This country has a problem with race and racism. Its a system that this nation was founded on and has thrived on. Its bigger than "whitey." Why are you typing any of this? Did your brain just shut down and you had to go back to Rush Limbaugh talking points?

You claimed to have entered this thread undecided about Affirmative Action but your posts seem like your mind was already made up.

[TheGreatBuzz]

i mean a study was done to show that a white man with a felony conviction was able to get a call back before a black man with a clean record for a job interview.

 

If you want to put your head in the sand and pretend its not a problem, then you are part of the problem.

who said anything about "whitey"?

 

This country has a problem with race and racism. Its a system that this nation was founded on and has thrived on. Its bigger than "whitey." Why are you typing any of this? Did your brain just shut down and you had to go back to Rush Limbaugh talking points?

You claimed to have entered this thread undecided about Affirmative Action but your posts seem like your mind was already made up.

I've seen that study mentioned in here but haven't seen the actual study so I don't know how much weight to give it.  If you can provide a link I will check it out.  As far as the "whitey" I was just throwing out a generic term that sometimes gets used.  I wouldn't get hung up on it.  I can use a different term if you'd like.  If it seems that I am totally against AA, you are wrong.  But I'm playing devils advocate trying to get the best of both sides.  I would be doing the same thing with the anti-AA crowd in here but you seem to have that on lockdown so I just read your points.  Some of the things you have been saying are what I would have if you didn't beat me to it. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

I've seen that study mentioned in here but haven't seen the actual study so I don't know how much weight to give it. If you can provide a link I will check it out.

it was linked.

 

As far as the "whitey" I was just throwing out a generic term that sometimes gets used.  I wouldn't get hung up on it.  I can use a different term if you'd like.

there was no need for it because that was not the conversation we were having. 

 

If it seems that I am totally against AA, you are wrong.  But I'm playing devils advocate trying to get the best of both sides.  I would be doing the same thing with the anti-AA crowd in here but you seem to have that on lockdown so I just read your points.  Some of the things you have been saying are what I would have if you didn't beat me to it.

your last post was not playing devil's advocate. It was pretty inflammatory and not needed.

[Gamebreaker]

Well I would contend that many of the examples in this thread could just as easily be attributed to class-ism (or whatever you want to call it) and not racism. Your example of the Hispanic guy seeking a job I'm sure does happen. If you think the goal of no racism whatsoever will be achieved anywhere in the near future, you are kidding yourself.

Explain to me how a white man with a criminal record being more likely to be hired than a black man without a criminal record is class-ism. What happened to that Hispanic man DID happen, and it happens every day.

The reason why we can't get rid of racism is partly due to the attitude you just displayed. Maybe I am kidding myself, but I'm not going to poo-poo half measures like AA while providing nothing as an alternative.

[TheGreatBuzz]

it was linked.

 

I must have missed it.  I'll go look for it.

 

there was no need for it because that was not the conversation we were having. 

Believe it or not, I talk to people outside of ES and listen to conversations in other places.  I use those experiences here.  The term gets used.  I'm sure me saying was not the first time you ever heard it before in your life.

 

 

your last post was not playing devil's advocate. It was pretty inflammatory and not needed.

It was not meant to be and I think if you took it that way, you need some thicker skin.

 

The post you are referring to was meant to point out that SOME racism will always exist across all races.  It is not limited to Caucasians (is that better?) against blacks.  Yet AA seems to have that as it's primary focus.  But to me, the best way to guard against that is removing race for application forms.  Let merit speak for itself. 

 

Now since you think I am only on one side of this issue, I will point out that if we did that, it is possible more blacks would be left off that if we used AA and I'm not sure that is a good thing.  But if race was unknown, than that means race wasn't a factor in why they weren't selected.  So now we need to look at what WAS the factor and how to fix that.  I would bet that if you looked at it, income level of the family would be the factor.  Now is race connected to why they remain at that income level?  Maybe, but then we need to fix that.  And I think that begins with more funding for education and such in lower income level areas.

Explain to me how a white man with a criminal record being more likely to be hired than a black man without a criminal record is class-ism. What happened to that Hispanic man DID happen, and it happens every day.

The reason why we can't get rid of racism is partly due to the attitude you just displayed. Maybe I am kidding myself, but I'm not going to poo-poo half measures like AA while providing nothing as an alternative.

Maybe the best way to explain my position is that I am against it from a moral stance.  I was taught that doing something based on the color of ones skin is wrong.  I'm sure my parents taught me this with the goal of me not growing up a racist.  And I took that lesson to heart.  So I am to this day, against doing something based solely on skin color.  But that means AA falls in that category.  I am MORALLY opposed to it.  In a perfect world, we wouldn't need it.

 

I will also admit it's not a perfect world so that's why I sit on the fence of AA.  It goes against my morals but I still see an issue that needs fixing.  I've always said, if the world were perfect, I'd be a Democrat.

[grego]

i mean a study was done to show that a white man with a felony conviction was able to get a call back before a black man with a clean record for a job interview.

 

If you want to put your head in the sand and pretend its not a problem, then you are part of the problem.

 

 

I think the problem is that we cant seem to come to agreement on how extensive the problem is. I think if that study is, indeed, accurate and representative of united states, then that's a big, big, big problem.

 

police brutality, shootings of unarmed blacks by white police officers, is another issue that suffers from this. on the one side, its a huge issue- one of the biggest problems in American society. on the other, its a tiny fraction of violence in the black community. and, like any issue regarding race, if you question it, youre 'part of the problem', 4 words which are practically guaranteed to shut down hearts and minds, along with any potential progress that may have been made.

 

its just difficult to question of criticize any part of things like affirmative action or BLM without being labeled an uncle tom or a bigot. its an emotional issue. people generally pick a side and cling to it as if it were the last sip of water on earth. but if you cant agree on the extent of the problem, its going to be impossible to come to any agreement on a solution.

 

that's not to say there aren't people that say "this problem doesn't exist"- of course there are.. but, I don't think every criticism should warrant a response that puts that person on that category.

[NoCalMike]

Racism and Classicism are both alive and well, and there is definitely some crossover with the two problems. However, combining being a minority & poverty?  It is still a worse draw that needs remedy.

 

I think if you ask anyone, they would be happy to get rid of AA the day it is not needed.  However, to suggest we should get rid of AA and in the meantime, while racism still exists it will simply be too bad for the folks it affects and maybe one day racism will go away on it's own, is simply unacceptable.  AA is not a perfect remedy, but for the time being it is the best remedy currently available.

[grego]

 

Maybe the best way to explain my position is that I am against it from a moral stance.  I was taught that doing something based on the color of ones skin is wrong.  I'm sure my parents taught me this with the goal of me not growing up a racist.  And I took that lesson to heart.  So I am to this day, against doing something based solely on skin color.  But that means AA falls in that category.  I am MORALLY opposed to it.  In a perfect world, we wouldn't need it.

 

 

 

 

I think this is where a lot of people are at. its a bit of a moral quandary.

[Gamebreaker]

Leaving race off application forms still doesn't prevent race or culture playing a factor when you can sometimes tell the race by just reading the applicant's name.

[Major Harris]

So we need more white LaShondas and more black Ericas.

#keepemguessin'

[Bozo the kKklown]

police brutality, shootings of unarmed blacks by white police officers, is another issue that suffers from this. on the one side, its a huge issue- one of the biggest problems in American society. on the other, its a tiny fraction of violence in the black community. and, like any issue regarding race, if you question it, youre 'part of the problem', 4 words which are practically guaranteed to shut down hearts and minds, along with any potential progress that may have been made.

there is a big difference when a state actor has a history of killing unarmed persons of a certain race versus black on black violence.

The other problem is that you make it seem like no one in the black community is focusing on black on black violence. Like there havent been protests, rallies, call to actions, meetings, etc over it. ITs a known problem, but only something those on the other side focus to take focus away from the issues of state sanctioned violence against its citizens.

you can def be anti affirmative action and not br insulted. The problem is you are ignoring thy the program is in place and usually those people offer no alternative to it.