NBC News: SC upholds affirmative action college admissions

[TheGreatBuzz]

 

The U.S. Supreme Court on Thursday upheld the affirmative action program at the University of Texas at Austin, ending a protracted legal battle.

The vote was 4-3.

It was not immediately clear how far-reaching the ruling will be because of the specifics of the Texas program at issue. However, the court offered a grudging agreement that in the Texas case the program is needed.

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"The Court's affirmance of the University's admissions policy today does not necessarily mean the University may rely on that same policy without refinement," Justice Anthony M. Kennedy wrote in the majority opinion for the court. "It is the University's ongoing obligation to engage in constant deliberation and continued reflection regarding its admissions policies."

Justice Clarence Thomas, in joining the dissent, said the decision "is irreconcilable with strict scrutiny, rests on pernicious assumptions about race, and departs from many of our precedents."

Justice Elena Kagan recused herself because she previously worked on the case as United States solicitor general.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/supreme-court-upholds-affirmative-action-college-admissions-n582981

 

Since we are already debating guns and politics, why not throw another controversial topic in the mix.

 

I really don't know how I feel about affirmative action.  One part of me wants it gone.  I think it has run it's course and I don't like things being decided based on a persons race in any circumstance.  I don't think a persons color should help or hurt them.  Another part of me thinks it is still needed to offset racist ****s.  Despite my personal beliefs, I am surprised the SC ruled this way.

 

Thoughts?

[PleaseBlitz]

As SCOTUS notes in this case, an applicant's race is a factor within a factor within a factor.  In other words, it is a REALLY small part of the holistic application process, and only 25% of UT students are even selected based on their application anyways (75% get in automatically for being in the top 10% percent of their Texas high school class).

 

And UT gave a whole bunch of reasons why having a diverse student body helps it achieve its educational goals and SCOTUS held that the educators should, you know, have some input. ("Considerable deference is owed to a university in defining those intangible characteristics, like student body diversity, that are central to its identity and educational mission.") 

 

So I don't have a problem with it IN THIS CASE.  If UT said "we are going to accept 1,000 people solely because they are minorities" that would be a different story.  

[TheGreatBuzz]

Yea I don't have a problem with it IN THIS CASE so much but thought it was a good jumping off point for the broader discussion of AA.  There aren't many issues I am legitimately torn on but AA is one of them.

[PleaseBlitz]

Yea I don't have a problem with it IN THIS CASE so much but thought it was a good jumping off point for the broader discussion of AA.  There aren't many issues I am legitimately torn on but AA is one of them.

 

Yea, I think AA is very much a line-drawing exercise.  A B and C are ok, but D is iffy and E is definitely not ok.  

 

I'm sure the thread will get out of hand.  I'll be ready with Trump gifs.

[Mooka]

https://www.propublica.org/article/a-colorblind-constitution-what-abigail-fishers-affirmative-action-case-is-r

 

" Court records showher grade point average (3.59) and SAT scores (1180 out of 1600) were good but not great for the highly selective flagship university. The school's rejection rate that year for the remaining 841 openings was higher than the turn-down rate for students trying to get into Harvard.

As a result, university officials claim in court filings that even if Fisher received points for her race and every other personal achievement factor, the letter she received in the mail still would have said no.

It's true that the university, for whatever reason, offered provisional admission to some students with lower test scores and grades than Fisher. Five of those students were black or Latino. Forty-two were white.

Neither Fisher nor Blum mentioned those 42 applicants in interviews. Nor did they acknowledge the 168 black and Latino students with grades as good as or better than Fisher's who were also denied entry into the university that year. Also left unsaid is the fact that Fisher turned down a standard UT offer under which she could have gone to the university her sophomore year if she earned a 3.2 GPA at another Texas university school in her freshman year."

 

Doesn't sound like she had much of a case in the first place. How did this get all the way to the Supreme Court? Surely they could've found a better example, a white student with superior scores and grades that wasn't admitted.  

[Kilmer17]

I am pretty staunch opponent of AA.  But after reviewing this particular case, it really doesn't seem like it applies.  IE, there isn't a victim.  Now I could be wrong, but my understanding is that nobody was denied admission to accommodate someone else based on the guideline.

[PleaseBlitz]

Doesn't sound like she had much of a case in the first place. How did this get all the way to the Supreme Court? Surely they could've found a better example, a white student with superior scores and grades that wasn't admitted.  

 

So I totally agree that the plaintiff is just being a jerk to a large extent.  But the case wasn't about her, it was brought on behalf of, basically, all white applicants.  

 

I am pretty staunch opponent of AA.  But after reviewing this particular case, it really doesn't seem like it applies.  IE, there isn't a victim.  Now I could be wrong, but my understanding is that nobody was denied admission to accommodate someone else based on the guideline.

 

Well, 25% of UT applicants are admitted based largely on subjective factors (like the quality of their essay, or how strong their internship or volunteer work is).  So there isn't some line where some specific white person was denied entry in favor of someone b/c they are black.  Which is largely why the court said it is ok.  But, conceivably, the last white person denied may have lost out to someone where race put that other person over the top.  But like I said, it is a small factor within another factor within another factor that only applies to 25% of the applicants anyways. 

[Duckus]

Sweeeet, sweet ginger tears. Mmmmmmm.

[Gamebreaker]

 

 

Doesn't sound like she had much of a case in the first place. How did this get all the way to the Supreme Court? Surely they could've found a better example, a white student with superior scores and grades that wasn't admitted.  

 

I have yet to see an actual example of that. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

she was average and thought her averageness and white race afforded her an opportunity it did not. Screw her.

[TheGreatBuzz]

she was average and thought her averageness and white race afforded her an opportunity it did not. Screw her.

My understanding is that she was actually above average, although just slightly.  And I disagree that she thought "white race afforded her an opportunity" but was instead saying that it wasn't fair that _________ race was afforded extra points just based on the color of their skin.

[Bozo the kKklown]

My understanding is that she was actually above average, although just slightly. And I disagree that she thought "white race afforded her an opportunity" but was instead saying that it wasn't fair that _________ race was afforded extra points just based on the color of their skin.

From the article posted earlier in this thread, she was not remarkable at all.

And from what you wrote, that says "there is no way another race with similar scores is better than me and my white skin with similar scores."

She comes across as extremely privileged.

[TheGreatBuzz]

And from what you wrote, that says "there is no way another race with similar scores is better than me and my white skin with similar scores."

 

Just to be clear are you saying that is what I'M saying or SHE is saying?  I don't agree with either one, just need to know what angle to come at it from.

[Gamebreaker]

I don't understand why people have a problem with affirmative action, yet have no problem with the multitude of race based hurdles that come with being a minority in this country. If you wish for everyone to be admitted into college based solely on their academics, I can understand and really agree with you. But unless you're an advocate of making education equal PRIOR to that point, you come off as someone who just wants to "protect what's mine."

[Riggo-toni]

Some random thoughts on AA.

There are plenty of unqualified white people who get in to exclusive ivy league schools based on legacy (see both y2k presidential candidates). Universities won't end that practice because it would kill them financially.

Liberals demand more money for headstart preschool programs, and want AA to get more unqualified minorities into college, but their dirty alliance with the NEA means no meaningful reforms ever happen for K-12. Inner city kids aren't getting an equivalent education, and placing them in colleges for which they are woefully unprepared has led to higher dropout rates and an unfair stigma against persons of color whose achievements are actually deserving. We are putting bigger bandaids over a growing cancer. If we have to keep making adjustments for poorer performances of blacks and latinos coming out of high school, we should be taking a much longer look at our secondary school system as opposed to turning a blind eye and pretending a few months in college can compensate for a dozen years of inferior instruction.

[zoony]

I don't understand why people have a problem with affirmative action, yet have no problem with the multitude of race based hurdles that come with being a minority in this country. If you wish for everyone to be admitted into college based solely on their academics, I can understand and really agree with you. But unless you're an advocate of making education equal PRIOR to that point, you come off as someone who just wants to "protect what's mine."

/thread

/discussion

[Xameil]

I don't understand why people have a problem with affirmative action, yet have no problem with the multitude of race based hurdles that come with being a minority in this country. If you wish for everyone to be admitted into college based solely on their academics, I can understand and really agree with you. But unless you're an advocate of making education equal PRIOR to that point, you come off as someone who just wants to "protect what's mine."

Isnt education at the lower levels more economics and school district then it is racial?

[TheGreatBuzz]

I don't understand why people have a problem with affirmative action, yet have no problem with the multitude of race based hurdles that come with being a minority in this country. If you wish for everyone to be admitted into college based solely on their academics, I can understand and really agree with you. But unless you're an advocate of making education equal PRIOR to that point, you come off as someone who just wants to "protect what's mine."

Well I do also have a problem with any race based hurdles, no matter the race.  And I am an advocate for making education equal prior to that point.  Maybe it's because I don't have kids but I can't speak intelligently regarding the education hurdles you refer to.  The anti AA part of me wants race removed from all applications, etc.  Then we can judge based on the person separate from their skin color.  Why is that a bad thing?

[SemperFi Skins]

... it applies to way more than just education and universities...Fairfax County is a prime example.

[NoCalMike]

In some ways I look at the AA issue similar to the abortion issue.  Far too many people want it stopped, but don't want to tackle the issues that cause the need for them in the first place. 

[Major Harris]

Isnt education at the lower levels more economics and school district then it is racial?

Yes. But race is more emotional so we focus on it.

[Gamebreaker]

Well I do also have a problem with any race based hurdles, no matter the race.  And I am an advocate for making education equal prior to that point.  Maybe it's because I don't have kids but I can't speak intelligently regarding the education hurdles you refer to.  The anti AA part of me wants race removed from all applications, etc.  Then we can judge based on the person separate from their skin color.  Why is that a bad thing?

 

Yeah, we're on the same side here. But I see removing race from applications as a bad thing RIGHT NOW, because nothing has been done to fix the need to even have it in there prior to that point. Below is a quote from this link I found, it shows one of the factors that goes into making education unequal. 

 

"America has established a belief of “liberty and justice for all”, so it is not a surprise that most Americans find themselves products of an educational system that is universal throughout the nation. While the education system proves to be a structure established to help educate the general public, many schools suffer from inequalities that are existent due to the funding gap. The funding gap is the amount of money spent per student in school districts. The funding gap shows that many low-income minority students are subjected to inferior facilities, less adequate teachers, and an incomparable curriculum to their counterparts. “In both 2002 and 2011, the 10 poorest schools on average spent 30 percent of what the 10 richest schools spent on average to educate each student, according to the analysis"

 

http://www.efc.gwu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/disparaties.pdf

 

Funding, or the lack thereof, is the root of the issue which branches out to more obvious problems like less qualified teachers, poorly maintained facilities(for example, in Detroit some students have been forced to attend class in the dead of winter with no heat and huge holes in floor), outdated books, etc,. 

[Gamebreaker]

Isnt education at the lower levels more economics and school district then it is racial?

 

There are a lot of factors that enter the equation, but race is the root of it. It is cyclic. Minorities from poor backgrounds in inferior education systems for the most part don't end up anymore educated than their poorly educated parents before them. Which continues the process as they become adults, with dead-end or underpaid jobs, have families and raise children with the same hurdles they went through. 

[Major Harris]

There are a lot of factors that enter the equation, but race is the root of it. It is cyclic. Minorities from poor backgrounds in inferior education systems for the most part don't end up anymore educated than their poorly educated parents before them. Which continues the process as they become adults, with dead-end or underpaid jobs, have families and raise children with the same hurdles they went through.

That same thing applies to poor white people.

Poverty begets poverty.

There are a lot of factors that enter the equation, but race is the root of it. It is cyclic. Minorities from poor backgrounds in inferior education systems for the most part don't end up anymore educated than their poorly educated parents before them. Which continues the process as they become adults, with dead-end or underpaid jobs, have families and raise children with the same hurdles they went through.

That same thing applies to poor white people.

Poverty begets poverty.

[PleaseBlitz]

That same thing applies to poor white people.

Poverty begets poverty.

 

 

I'll just note here (to the extent that this thread is still about the University of Texas admissions program)  that in addition to race, other factors considered by the admissions committee include "the socioeconomic status of the applicant’s family, the socioeconomic status of the applicant’s school, the applicant’s family responsibilities, whether the applicant lives in a single-parent home, the applicant’s SAT score in relation to the average SAT score at the applicant’s school, the language spoken at the applicant’s home."

 

So basically, they could just rename this factor to be "hurdles overcome" and it includes being poor, regardless of your skin color.  I'll also note that persistent racism in this country (see Presidential Election thread) is a hurdle overcome by black/latino/asian people regardless of their socioeconomic status.