NBC News: SC upholds affirmative action college admissions

[Kosher Ham]

Oh my. What did I just step into ? 

 

One day, everyone will realize the dream and we will all be considered equal. 

One day, we will not need to mark a race or sex on any form. 

One day, one day. 

 

Probably not in my lifetime, which is unfortunate. 

[sacase]

newsflash buddy, those people are racist and would diminish your accomplishments anyway. Affirmative Action is just a different buzz word.

You know what? I am tired of everything being racism when it's not. That's such simple minded thinking you have Fallen into. A lot of my friends who are also black hate it. Just because you dislike affirmative Action doesn't make you racist. Neither does questioning how you got there make you racist. Stop being a victim all the damn time.

[Major Harris]

That's fine. You're part of the majority of white people that feel that they don't personally have any responsibility for the injustices of the past. But you are a member of our society and the injustices of the past have directly translated to the injustices of the present. Society still has an unpayable debt and affirmative action is really the only minor step we've taken toward trying to fix this.

Coming from my personal perspective... I'm a white male. My parents both went to college. My dad's family was fairly wealthy, he was one of 7 kids, and they all went to college and are all successful white collar professionals today. I was born with unique advantages. My parents leveraged those in a lot of ways, including having my mom stay at home with me and my younger brothers for 8 years until we were all in school. This time allowed her to really focus in on our early childhood development, which meant by the time I started school I had a leg up on a lot of my peers who didn't have those advantages. I COASTED through high school and college with a pretty consistent B+ average that I never had to work for. I probably couldn't have gotten into a top tier school with my grades, but I was admitted to all three schools I applied to.

So say there is a hypothetical African American high school student. She didn't have the advantages I did because her parents were both poor. Because their parents were both poor, etc. Both of her parents had to work full time jobs at menial pay (that's assuming she has both parents), and as a result she's not as advanced when she starts school. She figures at at some point early enough in her educational career that she wants to try to escape this cycle of poverty, but she's got to WORK to overcome her situation at home. She's probably got to work a job after school in high school, maybe to help pay the bills at home. If this girl works her ass off to get a B average in school, compared to my B+, do I have ANY right to be mad about that? Hell no. And neither do you.

And yes, I'm aware that the hypothetical I laid out could be any poor person in this country, black, white, etc. But African Americans are disproportionately impacted by poverty, exclusively because of the sins of our society dating back hundreds of years. So no, nobody today has any right to get mad at a ridiculously minuscule program in place to try to help that.

 

 

like i said, not everyone has your experience.

 

it's easy to sit there and say what you're saying when you come from affluence.  me?  i identify way more with your hypothetical african american student than i do with your personal upbringing. 

 

your dad came from an affluent background, his whole family was college educated.  you wanted for nothing?

 

me?  i'm the only person in my family to go to college.  first time i went out on a date with my now wife, and i ordered a burger at a sit down restaurant (one of my first times being waited on in a restaurant not named pizza hut).  i didn't even know what the waitress was asking when she asked me how i wanted it cooked.  calculating a tip?  

 

i also went to college  (mainly because i was lucky enough to integrate with some affluent kids thru soccer, and that's what all my friends did, go to college) with almost no concept of money and how to manage it.  i only ever knew that we didn't have enough money to do just about anything.  so that college education that  was so easy for you?  i paid dearly for it (yes, i did notice classmates who were minorities that didn't perform as well as i did, were better or as well off as my family, that got pell grants to totally pay for their school, while i couldn't even qualify for subsidized loans.  I also vividly remember going thru grant after grant after grant to see that i wasn't eligible to apply (i was in the one category that didn't seem to be covered.  no, i am not an angry white male).  so i paid dearly for it, and i'm still paying dearly for it because i didn't have the tools you had, couldn't manage money whatsoever until i learned by failing over and over again in my 20's. 

 

my family never went on vacation, unless it was a boring drive to my dads aunts farm in bum**** ohio.  i couldn't do most of the things that many of my friends did.

 

and what i see is this:  the poor people i grew up with, minority or white, are by and large still poor.  the affluent kids, minority or white (and yes, i know both), are still affluent.

 

google Fox Glen, Kearneysville, WV.  see what type of news stories pop up.  that was my reality, along with a ton of other kids, black and white.  you can hit a 9 iron from the house i grew up in to the childhood homes of 3 murderers, and at least 5 other felons that i can name off the top of my head.  4 people that i can think of made it out.  and it's a 50/50 split between black kids and white kids that did (one spent 11 years in the NFL)

 

your ivory towers were not mine.

 

**disclaimer** i am a bit off topic, i think this ut case was ruled correctly, and i have no problems with affirmative action when it has very minuscule effects as pb has stated.  i just get pissed when i see the silver spoons talking about how easy white people have it.  white people don't all have it like YOU had it.  

 

i think socioeconomic status doesn't get nearly enough play in these discussions.  it's not something that is visible to the naked eye, color is, so we focus more on that.

[TheGoodBits]

Yep. Re-read my last paragraph. I agree that it's all about socioeconomic status. The only issue, and what people fail it acknowledge all too often, is that race absolutely impacts socioeconomic status and our society has a responsibility to try to correct that (because we caused it).

[Major Harris]

Yep. Re-read my last paragraph. I agree that it's all about socioeconomic status. The only issue, and what people fail it acknowledge all too often, is that race absolutely impacts socioeconomic status and our society has a responsibility to try to correct that (because we caused it caused it)

i should say, that by today's standards, i would've been considered homeless, and probably could've received more support. lol

(in no way am i trying to equate my childhood with that of being homeless, but by today's definition, i was).

i don't deny or fail to acknowledge the racial factor. 2 questions though...in your experience, do minorities from affluent backgrounds remain affluent thru adulthood? white people?

Did society not also create the socioeconomic gap?

[Bozo the kKklown]

You know what? I am tired of everything being racism when it's not. That's such simple minded thinking you have Fallen into. A lot of my friends who are also black hate it. Just because you dislike affirmative Action doesn't make you racist. Neither does questioning how you got there make you racist. Stop being a victim all the damn time.

what exactly are you talking about?

You just said it bothers you when someone tries to slight your accomplishments by saying "its because of Affirmative Action." That person thinks your race is the only reason why you are here. THat person is a racist. If you want to give power to racists persons and allow them to control your life and mind, then go for it.

I myself, am actually empowering myself by telling that person to eff off because I know they would hate on whatever I do. You need to stop being scared.

By you taking to heart a person who is trying to downplay your accomplishments, is the very essence of being a victim. Thats what you said in your post.

[PleaseBlitz]

That's now how it works.

I can give you the law suit articles. You want the actual details you'll have to talk to people. You and I both know you're not going to do that. And if you did, there's zero chance they'd talk to you.

But enjoy thinking you're on some higher ground. Pretend you don't understand this how these things work.

 

How do you know I won't talk to people?  WTF you don't know me.  All I asked you to do was to back up your suspicious claims with any evidence at all that they are true.  I guess that is somehow insulting to you.  What a joke.  I guess how it works is you stay something dumb, get called on your bull****, then act offended so you don't have to actually respond with substance.  Great tactic.  

[Kosher Ham]

Well, this thread is turning into more than I thought it would be. 

 

Interesting. 

[tshile]

 

i think socioeconomic status doesn't get nearly enough play in these discussions.  it's not something that is visible to the naked eye, color is, so we focus more on that.

 

This is where I am and it frustrates me because everyone always wants to talk about race. If you look at it from a poverty/economic opportunity angle you see many more actionable ideas and the only thing that really changes is the people you're helping aren't exclusively black, female, Latino, etc; they're just "poor" or lacking economic opportunities. Wish the conversation would permanently pivot to that, but it just never does.

[tshile]

How do you know I won't talk to people?  WTF you don't know me.  All I asked you to do was to back up your suspicious claims with any evidence at all that they are true.  I guess that is somehow insulting to you.  What a joke.  I guess how it works is you stay something dumb, get called on your bull****, then act offended so you don't have to actually respond with substance.  Great tactic.  

 

It wasn't insulting to me.

 

I know they won't talk because no one is going to put their job at risk for that sort of thing.

 

I guess you live in a world where everything is in the news or in research. That's fine. Like I said, some people have to see things to believe them. Most people. It is what it is.

 

And somewhere along the line you became confused and started to believe that, on this specific topic, I care whether you believe me. I don't. Certainly not to the point where it's worth jeopardizing the career of someone I *actually* know.

 

Some people realize there are things that happen that don't make it into the news. If you've had friends in government you understand that, or friends in the military. You see these stories in the news and  read them in the paper all the time, you just don't realize it because you're not privy to the information that wasn't published and/or made available to the reporters.

[Bozo the kKklown]

I guess you live in a world where everything is in the news or in research.

but YOU said it was. You said there were lawsuits. Someone asked you to show those suits, and you still have not produced them.

You see why someone would be skeptical of you saying something like "When people who score at the bottom a list get promoted in a system that revolves around saving lives." but then have nothing to back it up but instead criticize those who ask for proof.

Not all of us are stupid. You either have proof of these instances, or your words cannot be taken serious in this convo as it just sounds like a madman ranting on what they "think" happens versus what actually does happen.

[tshile]

but YOU said it was. You said there were lawsuits. Someone asked you to show those suits, and you still have not produced them.

You see why someone would be skeptical of you saying something like "When people who score at the bottom a list get promoted in a system that revolves around saving lives." but then have nothing to back it up but instead criticize those who ask for proof.

Not all of us are stupid. You either have proof of these instances, or your words cannot be taken serious in this convo as it just sounds like a madman ranting on what they "think" happens versus what actually does happen.

 

I'm not saying you're stupid.

 

If you've never been in a situation where things go on behind the scenes that don't make it into the public narrative then I don't know what to tell you.

 

If you have never witnessed people getting extra chances, or being bumped ahead of others, for reasons unrelated to actual qualifications I don't know what to say.

 

If you've never sat in a meeting, or on a hiring board, and had someone say "we need to hire a <insert minority class" then I don't know what to say. I have, I know others that have, and there is no news article to back that up.

 

For some reason no one has trouble admitting that sometimes people get jobs/promotions because of nepotism, or because a white person is racist/sexist towards a minority. But suggest someone got a job/promotion because of political pressures to be diverse, and all the sudden it's this unimaginable circumstance that must be made up by someone who's racist/sexist/bitter.

 

Furthermore, if you expect the people who witnesses this to raise hell and make it public then I can only conclude you've never been in those situations. That juice isn't worth the squeeze, they know it, and their best choice is to keep their head down and do the best they can and hope hard work eventually pays off.

 

I don't want to derail this any further, I just wanted to make it clear I'm not calling you or anyone else stupid. I'm simply trying to get across that not everything shows up in research and news articles. There are reasons for that. Demanding I furnish it, when I know the information isn't in the public record, is just something I will not do. Especially when it potentially puts people at risk, people that have already decided it's not in their best interest to leak this information to the public.

 

We have people on here reveal information that's not in the public record, it's up to what you do with it.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Well, this thread is turning into more than I thought it would be. 

 

Interesting. 

Yea this really isn't how I was hoping the conversation would go.  Considering asking the mods to lock it.  Here on ES, we are able to discuss guns, politics, and religion with at least a reasonable level of polite discussion (when compared to the general population at least).  I didn't think AA would be the thing we couldn't handle.

[Gamebreaker]

What is it you're expecting the article to say?

That the person responsible for making the decisions was there because of bull**** AA beliefs about quotas and having a force that 'represents the community it serves? And how their inability to actually be qualified cost someone their life? That everyone around them knew it when it happened? That the lawsuit was settled because it was known this person couldnt do the job and no one had any interest sitting in court arguing otherwise?

Then you honestly don't understand how this works. And that's OK, most people don't believe things until they see it.

How is this an AA issue, when we can look over at the "Cops that need to be fired" thread and look at plenty of completely unqualified white men who shouldn't have been hired destroy people's lives and get people killed?

[Bozo the kKklown]

For some reason no one has trouble admitting that sometimes people get jobs/promotions because of nepotism, or because a white person is racist/sexist towards a minority. But suggest someone got a job/promotion because of political pressures to be diverse, and all the sudden it's this unimaginable circumstance that must be made up by someone who's racist/sexist/bitter.

the problem with your thinking is that you believe it is done only to give preferences to minorities. That is quite clearly not true, just by looking at statistics.

Like I said before, you said you have proof. You then proceeded to not provide any proof. You have wasted all of our times in this thread.

[NoCalMike]

I don't think anyone is arguing that poverty across the board isn't a huge factor in upward mobility. In fact I think there was a recent study showing that the biggest factor of where you will end up life (in general) is the education and wealth of your parents.  That doesn't mean no one can overcome the obstacles, but in general you usually end up right around the class you were raised in.  We can debate about why that is, but it is.  However, that also doesn't mean there aren't some added obstacles in being a minority growing up in poverty. It doesn't mean that poor white folks aren't struggling too.

 

Too often this argument seems to devolve into poor white folks feeling slighted because they feel their struggle(s) are being overlooked, when that isn't really the case.  It is another tactic from the well off to turn the under class(s) against each other.  Or the somewhat ok off to look downward at the underclass and blame them for their woes.

[Major Harris]

I don't think anyone is arguing that poverty across the board isn't a huge factor in upward mobility. In fact I think there was a recent study showing that the biggest factor of where you will end up life (in general) is the education and wealth of your parents. That doesn't mean no one can overcome the obstacles, but in general you usually end up right around the class you were raised in. We can debate about why that is, but it is. However, that also doesn't mean there aren't some added obstacles in being a minority growing up in poverty. It doesn't mean that poor white folks aren't struggling too.

Too often this argument seems to devolve into poor white folks feeling slighted because they feel their struggle(s) are being overlooked, when that isn't really the case. It is another tactic from the well off to turn the under class(s) against each other. Or the somewhat ok off to look downward at the underclass and blame them for their woes.

I don't blame anyone for my woes (except maybe the student loan program lol).

All I've ever done is work my ass off to be in a better place than my parents and to give my kids the opportunity to be in a better place than me.

In reality, i couldn't even tell you what my goal is of saying all this. I guess it's more of a vent.

[sacase]

what exactly are you talking about?

You just said it bothers you when someone tries to slight your accomplishments by saying "its because of Affirmative Action." That person thinks your race is the only reason why you are here. THat person is a racist. If you want to give power to racists persons and allow them to control your life and mind, then go for it.

I myself, am actually empowering myself by telling that person to eff off because I know they would hate on whatever I do. You need to stop being scared.

By you taking to heart a person who is trying to downplay your accomplishments, is the very essence of being a victim. Thats what you said in your post.

Dude stop being a victim with your victim mentality.  If a person questions why you got to where you were because affirmative action is present, that is NOT racist. This is coming from someone who is black! People always want to examine your credibility and affirmative action just gives people another reason to question it. Giving power to racists? Please. Just more fear mongering that if you don't believe that everyone is racist because they disagree with you, then you are scared. The only thing you are empowering is your victim-hood. All of my black friend feel the same way. We have to work that much harder to prove we belong where we are at because of affirmative action. 

[sacase]

 

 

If you've never sat in a meeting, or on a hiring board, and had someone say "we need to hire a <insert minority class" then I don't know what to say. I have, I know others that have, and there is no news article to back that up.

 

For some reason no one has trouble admitting that sometimes people get jobs/promotions because of nepotism, or because a white person is racist/sexist towards a minority. But suggest someone got a job/promotion because of political pressures to be diverse, and all the sudden it's this unimaginable circumstance that must be made up by someone who's racist/sexist/bitter.

 

 

 

I have some anecdotal experience with this. When I was 21 I applied to be a police officer in my home town. I score really high on the test, and I did very well on the physical test. I did very well in the interview. There were four positions available. 3 military MP's got the first three and I was number 4. I got bumped for a female who score much lower because they needed a female. I will say this, in the hiring boards I have participated in at the federal level, we have never considered race as a selection criteria. We want the best person who we feel will fit with the team. The only thing that throws that off is veterans preference. Vet Preference trumps everything whether they are the best for the job or not. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

Dude stop being a victim with your victim mentality.  If a person questions why you got to where you were because affirmative action is present, that is NOT racist. This is coming from someone who is black! People always want to examine your credibility and affirmative action just gives people another reason to question it. Giving power to racists? Please. Just more fear mongering that if you don't believe that everyone is racist because they disagree with you, then you are scared. The only thing you are empowering is your victim-hood. All of my black friend feel the same way. We have to work that much harder to prove we belong where we are at because of affirmative action.

no, its entirely racist.

 

They are doing that to invalidate what you have done, and using race as the reason for the invalidation.

 

And I know you are black, my post was in response to a person who is black. if the first thought that person has is "Affirmative Action is why they are here," then they see your race first above all else. That person is a racist.

 

You and the black people who agree with you on this stance need to stop cowering to racists and letting them invalidate you. Like I said before, if you are letting people who are racists or have ill intentions hurt your feelings by saying "you are only here because of Affirmative Action," then you are the one walking around like a victim because you already believe you are.

And nothing I said was "fear mongering." I am trying to empower you, but you seem to be shook.

[Larry]

Just pointing out, regarding the notion of "he got where he is because of AA", I can think of at least two ways of looking at that. 

 

Hypothetical:  Imagine some person who speculates that Colin Powell got his stars because of AA. 

 

Not that could be a way of someone saying that he's not qualified, and was promoted because his race overrode his lack of qualification. 

 

Or it could indicate the notion that Powell was perfectly qualified.  But that, without AA, he would have been denied promotion because of his race. 

[sacase]

no, its entirely racist.

They are doing that to invalidate what you have done, and using race as the reason for the invalidation.

And I know you are black, my post was in response to a person who is black. if the first thought that person has is "Affirmative Action is why they are here," then they see your race first above all else. That person is a racist.

You and the black people who agree with you on this stance need to stop cowering to racists and letting them invalidate you. Like I said before, if you are letting people who are racists or have ill intentions hurt your feelings by saying "you are only here because of Affirmative Action," then you are the one walking around like a victim because you already believe you are.

And nothing I said was "fear mongering." I am trying to empower you, but you seem to be shook.

Really? What you just said was so insulting. You are not empowering me in the slightest you are trying to make me a victim. Larry all of my friends are black, successful (100k+ incomes), have master's degrees or above and we all feel the same. In my opinion Affirmative Action hurts more than it helps.

no, its entirely racist.

They are doing that to invalidate what you have done, and using race as the reason for the invalidation.

And I know you are black, my post was in response to a person who is black. if the first thought that person has is "Affirmative Action is why they are here," then they see your race first above all else. That person is a racist.

You and the black people who agree with you on this stance need to stop cowering to racists and letting them invalidate you. Like I said before, if you are letting people who are racists or have ill intentions hurt your feelings by saying "you are only here because of Affirmative Action," then you are the one walking around like a victim because you already believe you are.

And nothing I said was "fear mongering." I am trying to empower you, but you seem to be shook.

Really? What you just said was so insulting. You are not empowering me in the slightest you are trying to make me a victim. Larry all of my friends are black, successful (100k+ incomes), have master's degrees or above and we all feel the same. In my opinion Affirmative Action hurts more than it helps.

[Bozo the kKklown]

Really? What you just said was so insulting. You are not empowering me in the slightest you are trying to make me a victim. Larry all of my friends are black, successful (100k+ incomes), have master's degrees or above and we all feel the same. In my opinion Affirmative Action hurts more than it helps.

Beloved, YOU letting a racist person downplay your accomplishments is insulting. Its sad that you cannot see it that way because the rest of the world does.

[Larry]

My opinion is that AA is an evil which I sincerely regret is necessary. 

 

I wish it wasn't.  But when I see so many statistics like the unemployment rate, or average wages, which are so grotesquely different, for blacks, I cannot come up with any conclusion other than that racism is still pervasive, throughout our entire society. 

[sacase]

My opinion is that AA is an evil which I sincerely regret is necessary.

I wish it wasn't. But when I see so many statistics like the unemployment rate, or average wages, which are so grotesquely different, for blacks, I cannot come up with any conclusion other than that racism is still pervasive, throughout our entire society.

The truth? It's a vicious cycle of poverty, broken families, poor education systems. The man don't care what color you are only how much money you can make him.