NBC News: SC upholds affirmative action college admissions

[Gamebreaker]

That same thing applies to poor white people.

Poverty begets poverty.

 

Can we directly correlate the issues those communities suffer from to fiscal policies that consistently short-change urban schools? If we take a state or county where the race demographics are even or majority white, and there is simply no funding for everyone regardless of race, that is a different situation than the overwhelming majority of urban school systems all suffering from the exact same problem. 

[Major Harris]

Can we directly correlate the issues those communities suffer from to fiscal policies that consistently short-change urban schools? If we take a state or county where the race demographics are even or majority white, and there is simply no funding for everyone regardless of race, that is a different situation than the overwhelming majority of urban school systems all suffering from the exact same problem.

So are backwoods schools. Not every white person lives in a mcmansion in the DMV.

One part of the problem is that funding is often largely tied to property values.

I wonder how the nova secesionists feel about this.

I'll just note here (to the extent that this thread is still about the University of Texas admissions program) that in addition to race, other factors considered by the admissions committee include "the socioeconomic status of the applicant’s family, the socioeconomic status of the applicant’s school, the applicant’s family responsibilities, whether the applicant lives in a single-parent home, the applicant’s SAT score in relation to the average SAT score at the applicant’s school, the language spoken at the applicant’s home."

So basically, they could just rename this factor to be "hurdles overcome" and it includes being poor, regardless of your skin color. I'll also note that persistent racism in this country (see Presidential Election thread) is a hurdle overcome by black/latino/asian people regardless of their socioeconomic status.

Yes, I'm off topic. This topic bothers me for reasons i have never discussed on here.

[PleaseBlitz]

Then for the record, I am totally against theoretical affirmative action.  

[Major Harris]

And for the record, i side with you on this ut case.

[Gamebreaker]

Further proof Ms. Fisher's claims were baseless. 

 

"While people of color, individually and as groups, have been helped by affirmative action in the subsequent years, data and studies suggest women — white women in particular — have benefited disproportionately. According to one study, in 1995, 6 million women, the majority of whom were white, had jobs they wouldn’t have otherwise held but for affirmative action."

 

http://ideas.time.com/2013/06/17/affirmative-action-has-helped-white-women-more-than-anyone/

[Major Harris]

..........

[Xameil]

Can we directly correlate the issues those communities suffer from to fiscal policies that consistently short-change urban schools? If we take a state or county where the race demographics are even or majority white, and there is simply no funding for everyone regardless of race, that is a different situation than the overwhelming majority of urban school systems all suffering from the exact same problem.

I can give you an example....

My daughter went to a school where the majority are white...probably around 90 percent. She came to a school that was in a better economic area with more racial diversity. She was light years behind because of quality of school. I think poor education in certain areas is the problem...

[TheGoodBits]

I think poor education in certain areas is the problem...

No doubt. The issue is that poor schools are often found in poor communities. And poor communities are often predominantly minority. And the reason for that is the generations of segregation, racist housing policies, racist hiring policies, etc that have minorities trapped in a seemingly inescapable cycle of poverty from generation to generation. Add to that the increasing difficulty of social mobility due to the exorbitant cost of higher education and the decreasing value of a degree, and you've got an absurdly stacked deck against poor minority communities.

And all affirmative action is trying to do is provide a slightly better chance that a minority that is attempting to escape from this cycle of poverty has a slightly better chance than they might otherwise have. Apparently that's way too much to ask though.

[TheGreatBuzz]

So would the more fair answer to be giving preferential treatment to people from poor areas regardless of skin color?

[TheGoodBits]

So would the more fair answer to be giving preferential treatment to people from poor areas regardless of skin color?

I wouldn't be opposed to that concept other than the fact that it's kind of a societal cop out, ignoring the wrongs that have been committed for hundreds of years based solely on race.

[Xameil]

And all affirmative action is trying to do is provide a slightly better chance that a minority that is attempting to escape from this cycle of poverty has a slightly better chance than they might otherwise have. Apparently that's way too much to ask though.

You are kind of missing the point...if you want to make it fair to get into a college...start at the early ages. If someone gets into a tough college due to race, and not by merit, then there is a high chance they will not be able to handle the tougher college curiculum, and will drop out. Thus wasting a spot that a more qualified student could have had. That qualified student could have been a white, black, Asian, latino student, but they didn't get in because of a race quota system that affirmative action may create.

[TheGoodBits]

You are kind of missing the point...if you want to make it fair to get into a college...start at the early ages. If someone gets into a tough college due to race, and not by merit, then there is a high chance they will not be able to handle the tougher college curiculum, and will drop out. Thus wasting a spot that a more qualified student could have had. That qualified student could have been a white, black, Asian, latino student, but they didn't get in because of a race quota system that affirmative action may create.

Investing more in education, particularly in poor areas, is certainly important.

Let's be real here. The cutoff line for a massive state university like UT isn't really that competitive. If you're a B student in high school you get in. And if some black C+ students, possibly from difficult backgrounds, get in rather than a white B- student, does anyone really give a ****? Is there a real injustice there? The answer is no.

[TheGreatBuzz]

I wouldn't be opposed to that concept other than the fact that it's kind of a societal cop out, ignoring the wrongs that have been committed for hundreds of years based solely on race.

Is it possible this is at least a bit of a cop out in a day when we have a black president from a not so great area? Does that show that anything is possible?

[PleaseBlitz]

You are kind of missing the point...if you want to make it fair to get into a college...start at the early ages. If someone gets into a tough college due to race, and not by merit, then there is a high chance they will not be able to handle the tougher college curiculum, and will drop out. Thus wasting a spot that a more qualified student could have had. That qualified student could have been a white, black, Asian, latino student, but they didn't get in because of a race quota system that affirmative action may create.

 

A college's admission process goal is not to be "fair."  It's to create an environment that allows them to best achieve their educational mission.  Many colleges view having many diverse students (and therefore points of view) as a critical component of creating that environment.

[TheGoodBits]

Is it possible this is at least a bit of a cop out in a day when we have a black president from a not so great area? Does that show that anything is possible?

Got it. We got a black president therefore racial inequality is totally solved now. We're even America, great news.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Let's be real here. The cutoff line for a massive state university like UT isn't really that competitive. If you're a B student in high school you get in. And if some black C+ students, possibly from difficult backgrounds, get in rather than a white B- student, does anyone really give a ****? Is there a real injustice there? The answer is no.

I say the answer is yes. I came into unsure how I felt about AA. Your arguments aren't helping your case.

Got it. We got a black president therefore racial inequality is totally solved now. We're even America, great news.

Is that what I said?

[TheGoodBits]

I say the answer is yes. I came into unsure how I felt about AA. Your arguments aren't helping your case.

That's fine. You're part of the majority of white people that feel that they don't personally have any responsibility for the injustices of the past. But you are a member of our society and the injustices of the past have directly translated to the injustices of the present. Society still has an unpayable debt and affirmative action is really the only minor step we've taken toward trying to fix this.

Coming from my personal perspective... I'm a white male. My parents both went to college. My dad's family was fairly wealthy, he was one of 7 kids, and they all went to college and are all successful white collar professionals today. I was born with unique advantages. My parents leveraged those in a lot of ways, including having my mom stay at home with me and my younger brothers for 8 years until we were all in school. This time allowed her to really focus in on our early childhood development, which meant by the time I started school I had a leg up on a lot of my peers who didn't have those advantages. I COASTED through high school and college with a pretty consistent B+ average that I never had to work for. I probably couldn't have gotten into a top tier school with my grades, but I was admitted to all three schools I applied to.

So say there is a hypothetical African American high school student. She didn't have the advantages I did because her parents were both poor. Because their parents were both poor, etc. Both of her parents had to work full time jobs at menial pay (that's assuming she has both parents), and as a result she's not as advanced when she starts school. She figures at at some point early enough in her educational career that she wants to try to escape this cycle of poverty, but she's got to WORK to overcome her situation at home. She's probably got to work a job after school in high school, maybe to help pay the bills at home. If this girl works her ass off to get a B average in school, compared to my B+, do I have ANY right to be mad about that? Hell no. And neither do you.

And yes, I'm aware that the hypothetical I laid out could be any poor person in this country, black, white, etc. But African Americans are disproportionately impacted by poverty, exclusively because of the sins of our society dating back hundreds of years. So no, nobody today has any right to get mad at a ridiculously minuscule program in place to try to help that.

[PleaseBlitz]

You are kind of missing the point...if you want to make it fair to get into a college...start at the early ages. If someone gets into a tough college due to race, and not by merit, then there is a high chance they will not be able to handle the tougher college curiculum, and will drop out. Thus wasting a spot that a more qualified student could have had. That qualified student could have been a white, black, Asian, latino student, but they didn't get in because of a race quota system that affirmative action may create.

 

I also want to point out that big-time universities gets tens of thousands of applications (UT got 40,000 applications last year) so the difference between people that get in is razor thin.  So it's not like the white person that didn't get in is an A student and the black person that did is a C student (putting the football team aside ).  It's more like 2 B+ students, one with 1200 SATs and one with 1210 SATs.  It's not like there is enough of a difference that one is super qualified and the other is some dumb**** that is just going to drop out anyways.  

[Bozo the kKklown]

Just to be clear are you saying that is what I'M saying or SHE is saying?  I don't agree with either one, just need to know what angle to come at it from.

She is saying that. My bad for not being clearer.

Isnt education at the lower levels more economics and school district then it is racial?

unfortunately for this premises, wealth and race are linked in this country.

 

Yes. But race is more emotional so we focus on it.

nice try

[Xameil]

I also want to point out that big-time universities gets tens of thousands of applications (UT got 40,000 applications last year) so the difference between people that get in is razor thin. So it's not like the white person that didn't get in is an A student and the black person that did is a C student (putting the football team aside ). It's more like 2 B+ students, one with 1200 SATs and one with 1210 SATs. It's not like there is enough of a difference that one is super qualified and the other is some dumb**** that is just going to drop out anyways.

Again...there is always something that makes them choose one over another, whether it be school clubs, activities, or volunteer work.

How about they take the race part off completely, and do intreviews where they can't see what the person looks like. That way it becomes on just merit alone.

[Bozo the kKklown]

If someone gets into a tough college due to race, and not by merit, then there is a high chance they will not be able to handle the tougher college curiculum, and will drop out.

This is not what Affirmative Action does. No one gets into a PWI based on their minority status. Its just a consideration. Besides, white women benefit more from it than any minority.

[Xameil]

unfortunately for this premises, wealth and race are linked in this country.

Don't really agree...

[No Excuses]

What this thread was missing was a disclaimer:

 

Just because people are pointing out that minorities are victims of cyclical poverty in this country doesn't mean that people are denying poverty in white communities. The former just happens to be much more prevalent and is entrenched into our society due to the racist history of this country. AA attempts to level the playing field by allowing people trapped in a cycle of poverty and economic despair to have a chance to climb out of it. 

 

And again, please read up on the practical application of it. A D- student from Ward 8 in DC isn't getting to Harvard because of AA. It still gets applied in a fairly competitive manner.

[Xameil]

This is not what Affirmative Action does. No one gets into a PWI based on their minority status. Its just a consideration. Besides, white women benefit more from it than any minority.

That is exactly what it does. I have heard many times that someone got into an institution due to affirmative action and quotas

[Bozo the kKklown]

Don't really agree...

you can disagree with statistics if you want, but its the truth. African Americans and "Hispanics" are disproportionately more affected by lack of wealth than white people.

They are linked