The immigration thread: American Melting Pot or Get off my Lawn

[Bozo the kKklown]

30 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

Yes, we have done a lot of ****ty things along the way, and we have always been infected with that original sin of overarching greed, but there has always been those words, those hopes and ideals, that while still not recognized were held out as a signpost forward. In that regard we have been a moral leader, but we are waistdeep in the morass of  our own lies, in the realization that those ideals are still just that, ideals not yet fulfilled.

 

I really dig this. I like characterizing it as a set of ideals that we want to follow. But it goes back to that, “do as I say, not as I do” speak.

 

How can an American president tell another country to improve its human rights conditions when their are police shootings of unarmed black and brown people and the horrible treatment of our indigenous people? How can we push for free and fair elections when democracy had only been available since the the ‘65 voting rights act and then that was gutted a few years ago to now allow people to be removed from voting rolls? We still allow slavery with our prison system. I’m convinced we only ended state sponsored slavery because the Soviets told recently freed former colonial counties that the “moral leader of the world” house is on fire and they are hypocrites. We won’t even offer children healthcare and good education. And then we have poisoned nations around the world to irrevocable damage like in Central America to promote our interests. And we have murdered scores of innocent families across the globe.

 

Actions speak louder than words. We have never acted well. 

 

This desire we as Americans have to be patted on the back for doing a quarter-assed job in being the “moral leader” is one of the greatest instances of American propoganda and delusion. You can’t lead in morality while having a gun pointed at someone’s head. We strive to reach a point yet seemingly run further away from it.

[LD0506]

9 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Actions speak louder than words. We have never acted well. 

 

Ahhh Benning, here's we we start to diverge. I do understand your point, can't and won't even try to dismiss or refute but you tend towards these kind of absolutist positions. "Never" is absolute. 

 

We have fed uncounted millions across the globe. They don't care who made a buck or whose political agenda it served, they ate. The Peace Corps was one of the great institutions in our time, reaching out to try, often fumbling and ineffective, without the knowledge and context to know what was truly needed but trying nonetheless. Americans fighting and dying to liberate Europe? Was that a "nothing"? Americans being roused from their cocoons to march and bleed for basic rights, was that a nothing? Americans dragging johnboats cross state lines to fish flood victims outta the water, was that "nothing"? Admit some nuance......

 

I am not disagreeing with you, we have been and are still capable of heinous atrocities, we are ultimately human beings, a species that has been shaped through evolution by fear. We are not fast, we have no fangs or claws, our only venom is in thought and deed, we have risen because we fear in a way no other species does. Fear has fueled and driven us to dominate the planet, without it we would be just another food source for predators. But there's the rub, that innate fear that drives us is now killing us, we need to do something never before seen, never imagined in the history of this planet, we need to consciously choose our evolution, we need to craft our destiny overtly.

 

And that begins by the simple admission of who and what we are. 

 

And who and what we are is a mishmash paradox of nightmare vision and fantastic dream state, we are capable of so much, even though we so rarely make that the highest priority. If we are beginning a new age it might be one of introspection, of waking from the myths and lies and seeing ourselves clearly for the first time ever, and man, it ain't pretty. But nothing can get better until we see the truth of what we have made ourselves.

 

So in that regard, I do not believe in the "never".

 

 

 

 

 

[Bozo the kKklown]

2 hours ago, LD0506 said:

 

Ahhh Benning, here's we we start to diverge. I do understand your point, can't and won't even try to dismiss or refute but you tend towards these kind of absolutist positions. "Never" is absolute. 

 

We have fed uncounted millions across the globe. They don't care who made a buck or whose political agenda it served, they ate. The Peace Corps was one of the great institutions in our time, reaching out to try, often fumbling and ineffective, without the knowledge and context to know what was truly needed but trying nonetheless. Americans fighting and dying to liberate Europe? Was that a "nothing"? Americans being roused from their cocoons to march and bleed for basic rights, was that a nothing? Americans dragging johnboats cross state lines to fish flood victims outta the water, was that "nothing"? Admit some nuance......

 

I am not disagreeing with you, we have been and are still capable of heinous atrocities, we are ultimately human beings, a species that has been shaped through evolution by fear. We are not fast, we have no fangs or claws, our only venom is in thought and deed, we have risen because we fear in a way no other species does. Fear has fueled and driven us to dominate the planet, without it we would be just another food source for predators. But there's the rub, that innate fear that drives us is now killing us, we need to do something never before seen, never imagined in the history of this planet, we need to consciously choose our evolution, we need to craft our destiny overtly.

 

And that begins by the simple admission of who and what we are. 

 

And who and what we are is a mishmash paradox of nightmare vision and fantastic dream state, we are capable of so much, even though we so rarely make that the highest priority. If we are beginning a new age it might be one of introspection, of waking from the myths and lies and seeing ourselves clearly for the first time ever, and man, it ain't pretty. But nothing can get better until we see the truth of what we have made ourselves.

 

So in that regard, I do not believe in the "never".

 

 

 

 

 

We fought to liberate Europe while oppressing many of the men who fought in that conflict. And continued to oppress them when they come back home. (edit: forgot about our own Japanese concentration camps too)

 

We are the only nation to ever use an atomic weapon. We did it twice.

 

We marched for Civil Rights, then enacted leaders right after who removed those same civil rights we fought for.

 

I will agree that I was being very black and white by saying "never" (I also just woke up and didn't do a revision but I messed up) but you can't say we are moral leaders while at the same time act immoral.

Edited November 27, 2018 by BenningRoadSkin

[Bozo the kKklown]

 

Now today, we helped cause many of the horrors these people are fleeing from, and we will not accept that and have tear gassed them and separated families to close our borders. These are the same borders that we have crossed to destroy order for our interests. And the people who are making these decisions to close our borders cannot trace the start of their lineage to this land.

 

We can't claim to be moral leaders by doing good deeds sometimes and forgetting the atrocities that we have inflicted. We are like the NFL during Breast Cancer awareness month, lol.

 

This all probably will come across as anti-American to others but it's me wanting us to believe in our values and act on them, all the time.

[Renegade7]

2 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

@BenningRoadSkin not sure if you missed my response.  Can you say who is the moral leader if not the USA?

 

I already asked that and he said it doesnt matter to this discussion.  

[Renegade7]

43 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

This all probably will come across as anti-American to others but it's me wanting us to believe in our values and act on them, all the time.

 

A lot of people are going to miss this because of everything else you post and say so im going to quote it for you.  Different perspective of what we've done while still wanting the same thing for our future.  That's going to be a process and will never be perfect.  I still dont agree with your stance not to name a moral leader, there's nothing to compare to in this case for reference except your opinion, there's very few places to go from at that point in the discussion. 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

[Kilmer17]

Isnt the use of tear gas part of the border patrol (and police for that matter) regular operations?  

 

 

[Captain Wiggles]

19 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

Isnt the use of tear gas part of the border patrol (and police for that matter) regular operations?  

 

 

 

Probably. Gasing women and children is never a good look. No matter what the book of standard operating procedures says.

[Kilmer17]

7 minutes ago, clietas said:

 

Probably. Gasing women and children is never a good look. No matter what the book of standard operating procedures says.

I think it's being overblown on purpose.  I agree it doesnt look good, maybe they should use drone strikes instead.  Then we wont have to see it.

[Captain Wiggles]

1 minute ago, Kilmer17 said:

I think it's being overblown on purpose.  I agree it doesnt look good, maybe they should use drone strikes instead.  Then we wont have to see it.

 

I'm sure the Donald is already considering using drone strikes. 

[Kilmer17]

1 minute ago, clietas said:

 

I'm sure the Donald is already considering using drone strikes. 

Oh Im sure they've only increased since he took office.  

[The Evil Genius]

3 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

Oh Im sure they've only increased since he took office.  

 

Somewhere in the ballpark of 400% increase is what I've seen mentioned.

 

As for the tear gas, I have concerns with it being banned in warfare and still used on civilians. How does that even make sense?

[Kilmer17]

2 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

Somewhere in the ballpark of 400% increase is what I've seen mentioned.

 

As for the tear gas, I have concerns with it being banned in warfare and still used on civilians. How does that even make sense?

Dont know, but been that way for a while.

[Captain Wiggles]

I know they've been debating deploying the reaper drones along the border for awhile. Only a matter of time with this President.

 

https://gizmodo.com/report-national-guard-wants-to-fly-mq-9-reaper-drones-1829017387

[visionary]

 

[Cooked Crack]

Checkmate, libs.

[twa]

4 hours ago, clietas said:

I know they've been debating deploying the reaper drones along the border for awhile. Only a matter of time with this President.

 

https://gizmodo.com/report-national-guard-wants-to-fly-mq-9-reaper-drones-1829017387

 

Que?

 

 

2014

[Captain Wiggles]

I thought only the unarmed drones were used along our northern and southern borders? The reaper drones are the armed ones. Thought we're  only using those in the Middle East?

[tshile]

10 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

This all probably will come across as anti-American to others but it's me wanting us to believe in our values and act on them, all the time.

 

I think your spot on. I also think your specific view in these posts has a place and time to be done the way you did it. This thread qualifies well. 

 

I just also think there’s a big world with a lot of history and I think there’s a lot of good in there and I think we have something to be proud of - is there another population that compares to our size (geographic and population) and our diversity that has anything close to what we have? How many of them can even hope to improve at all compared to the hope we have that we can improve?

 

i think you’re spot on in what you say. I just don’t think thats all there is to say about it. 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, Cooked Crack said:

Checkmate, libs.

 

You mean cuckmate, libtard!

 

I love how insanely simplistic Trump's entire political strategy is. Just take whatever is happening and claim it's the opposite. And just keep doing it. Over and over and over.

[tshile]

To add to your list I’d throw out Yemen. We’ve been funding a genocide purely because of our financial relationship with the saudis.

 

and when you see high ranking officials come out and speak against the Yemen involvement over the last few weeks, remember that they sat by and orchestrated it for years beforehand. 

 

I dont think its anti-American to look at our history (honestly) and demand better. 

 

I’ve always taken issue with our moral superiority crap. For more reasons than just the hyprocite aspect. 

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

You mean cuckmate, libtard!

 

I love how insanely simplistic Trump's entire political strategy is. Just take whatever is happening and claim it's the opposite. And just keep doing it. Over and over and over.

It works. 

 

I also think hes right about the imagery at the border, if I’m understanding him correctly (always a gamble)

 

images of the national guard “protecting the border” from an “invasion” and being successful will play well with their target audience. Think about all the times we’ve see responses to riots and protests. I think that sort of imagery galvanizes both sides. 

[mistertim]

47 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

I also think hes right about the imagery at the border, if I’m understanding him correctly (always a gamble)

 

images of the national guard “protecting the border” from an “invasion” and being successful will play well with their target audience. Think about all the times we’ve see responses to riots and protests. I think that sort of imagery galvanizes both sides. 

 

If we're talking about ginning up his base, you're right. That absolutely plays right into his hand. But those are the same people who would still support him even if he literally came out tomorrow as a transgender alien overlord from another planet; they'd just change their slogan to "Make Proxima Centauri Great Again" without skipping a beat. 

 

If we're talking about people outside of his base, I don't think the images of mothers and their children running from tear gas plays well. 

 

And considering it's Trump, he has shown he only cares about his base, so you're probably correct when all is said and done.

Edited November 28, 2018 by mistertim

[TheGreatBuzz]

23 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

If we're talking about ginning up his base, you're right. That absolutely plays right into his hand. But those are the same people who would still support him even if he literally came out tomorrow as a transgender alien overlord from another planet; they'd just change their slogan to "Make Proxima Centauri Great Again" without skipping a beat. 

 

If we're talking about people outside of his base, I don't think the images of mothers and their children running from tear gas plays well

Well I am by no means his base and I think the pictures are sad.  But if people are trying to rush the border, tear gas being used is by far not the worst option to use.  I despise trump but we do need some semblance of border security. Tear gas is rather humane in the grand scheme of things.  And I've been exposed to tear gas so I know how it feels.

[tshile]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

If we're talking about ginning up his base, you're right. That absolutely plays right into his hand. But those are the same people who would still support him even if he literally came out tomorrow as a transgender alien overlord from another planet; they'd just change their slogan to "Make Proxima Centauri Great Again" without skipping a beat. 

 

If we're talking about people outside of his base, I don't think the images of mothers and their children running from tear gas plays well. 

 

And considering it's Trump, he has shown he only cares about his base, so you're probably correct when all is said and done.

 

I disagree. I think there are people outside his base that will see those pictures will play well with. I think there are plenty of people that have been critical of him in the last few months that will have at least a momentary pull back to liking him when they see that stuff. 

 

I think we are just disagreeing on % if people that feel the way you do about it. I think it’s smaller.