The Gun Control Debate Thread

[Koala]

33 minutes ago, twa said:

 

I fear guns all the time, in school or not.

I do not let fear affect my reasoning though,which is what I see from people that object to any guns in screened and trained hands.

 

Of course if you don't fear a shooter or such at the school then it could be reasonable.

What threat level is below your fear level is the question you must ask yourself.
The same is true for anyone having a gun for self defense.....is the need there

I think your initial instinct is correct.  That's the instinct we should work with -- how do we reduce the proliferation of guns, period?

 

The problem with the whole self-defense thing, is inevitably, you will arrive at the conclusion that the best result will be to allow everyone, who is willing to undergo safety and de-escalation  training to have a gun for self-defense.  Including high school kids.  Would you support letting 18 year old HS's with a permit and gun training to bring weapons to school, for self defense?  As you mentioned, having a few SRO's in hand or a one or two trained guards with guns might not solve the problem either, eliminate the guard first, take your time with the kids, as you said.  So that leaves only the ... everybody be allowed to carry for self-defense solution.  Which, I trust you to realize, is not a solution.  I may be placing too much trust in you.

[twa]

17 minutes ago, Koala said:

I think your initial instinct is correct.  That's the instinct we should work with -- how do we reduce the proliferation of guns, period?

 

The problem with the whole self-defense thing, is inevitably, you will arrive at the conclusion that the best result will be to allow everyone, who is willing to undergo safety and de-escalation  training to have a gun for self-defense.  Including high school kids.  Would you support letting 18 year old HS's with a permit and gun training to bring weapons to school, for self defense?  As you mentioned, having a few SRO's in hand or a one or two trained guards with guns might not solve the problem either, eliminate the guard first, take your time with the kids, as you said.  So that leaves only the ... everybody be allowed to carry for self-defense solution.  Which, I trust you to realize, is not a solution.  I may be placing too much trust in you.

 

I certainly agree with reducing guns in the wrong hands and reducing peoples perceived need for them.

 

You are doing the slippery slope thing? 

Schools are very controlled environments  and if you have sufficient security it is easy to limit any expansion.

Things would have to be off the rails before I would agree to a 18 yr old.(though we do arm and send them to war)

 

The number needed is determined by the size and structure AND police response time....and of course if there is a need at all.

If schools all over are being shot up(they are not now) then I'd certainly endorse allowing self defense, closing them down and doing online or calling in the damn National Guard.

 

College kids over 21 I have no issue with carrying concealed with proper vetting and licensing(though I do admit to some fear there and would prefer 25+)

 

added

If school security is generally perceived as insufficient you will see lawsuits to force better(you will see them after this shooting) just as police depts have been successfully sued to upgrade weapons training and businesses sued for insufficient security.

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by twa

[LadySkinsFan]

[twa]

Maybe your memes will help shield them.

[Cooked Crack]

2 minutes ago, twa said:

Maybe your memes will help shield them.

Memes count under thoughts.

[twa]

1 minute ago, Cooked Crack said:

Memes count under thoughts.

 

So she is half mocking herself?....tis good to laugh at yourself some.

[Koala]

1 hour ago, twa said:

 

I certainly agree with reducing guns in the wrong hands and reducing peoples perceived need for them.

 

You are doing the slippery slope thing? 

Schools are very controlled environments  and if you have sufficient security it is easy to limit any expansion.

Things would have to be off the rails before I would agree to a 18 yr old.(though we do arm and send them to war)

 

The number needed is determined by the size and structure AND police response time....and of course if there is a need at all.

If schools all over are being shot up(they are not now) then I'd certainly endorse allowing self defense, closing them down and doing online or calling in the damn National Guard.

 

College kids over 21 I have no issue with carrying concealed with proper vetting and licensing(though I do admit to some fear there and would prefer 25+)

 

added

If school security is generally perceived as insufficient you will see lawsuits to force better(you will see them after this shooting) just as police depts have been successfully sued to upgrade weapons training and businesses sued for insufficient security.

 

 

 

Okay, so would you support legislation banning gun for anyone under the age of 25, exceptions for hunting permits and concealed carry between 18-25?  That would be a step in the right direction.  A big step.  

[tshile]

4 hours ago, The Evil Genius said:

When did it become a teacher's job to stop a bullet from your child?

It's not.

No one is being forced to help with anything.

They can hide in the closets and run out the doors if that's what they want.

 

We do need more help though.

 

It's a ****ty situation.

1 hour ago, twa said:

Schools are very controlled environments  and if you have sufficient security it is easy to limit any expansion.

No they're not. Drugs run rampant in schools. 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by tshile

[twa]

1 minute ago, Koala said:

Okay, so would you support legislation banning gun for anyone under the age of 25, exceptions for hunting permits and concealed carry between 18-25?  That would be a step in the right direction.  A big step.  

.

 

Depends on the hurdles on the permits, I have already voiced support for banning semi-automatics for under 21, and will listen to up to 25

 

Mine at least removes the glorified guns, but bring me some detail on yours.... btw, most states already have CCW at 21

http://concealednation.org/2015/10/by-state-how-old-do-you-need-to-be-to-apply-for-a-concealed-handgun-permit/

 

mine does and we are gun nuts

3 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

It's a ****ty situation.

No they're not. Drugs run rampant in schools. 

 

 

 

Drugs are harder to police than guns and staff,and they do do drug dogs and such here regularly....so a real effort is there(despite pot being supposedly harmless)

[tshile]

4 minutes ago, twa said:

Drugs are harder to police than guns and staff,and they do do drug dogs and such here regularly....so a real effort is there(despite pot being supposedly harmless)

Yeah they do drug dogs here too.

 

Are drugs harder to police than guns? I doubt it. You're not going to sneak a riffle in your backpack but it's certainly not impossible to hide many types of guns in every day looking attire. 

 

[twa]

9 minutes ago, tshile said:

Yeah they do drug dogs here too.

 

Are drugs harder to police than guns? I doubt it. You're not going to sneak a riffle in your backpack but it's certainly not impossible to hide many types of guns in every day looking attire. 

 

 

random searches and metal detectors here, though they do bring them at times along with knives,nun-chucks and such

 

I was mainly talking staff on guns(and they do random checks here for staff)

 

add

 they require clear backpacks there?

Edited February 20, 2018 by twa

[The Evil Genius]

I'd bet there is a poster or two here who believes this tripe too.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by The Evil Genius

[twa]

They probably all look alike to him.....a common problem.

[Burgold]

Just for fun. I looked up the number of schools in the United States. According to the Dept. of Education, there were 98,271 public schools as of the 2013-14 school year. Now, from the discussion I have been following, arming one or two teachers is insufficient to cover the school and address the risk. So, let's say you need an average of ten teachers per school that you are going to arm, train, and serve as extra security. That's 980,000 more guns in circulation or almost a million guns sold to teachers or the school system.

 

Is there any question why the NRA and Righties support this idea of arming teachers? It's a bloody windfall! Again, this idea is not about safety. It's certainly has nothing to do with trying to save lives. It’s about cold hard cash.

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Burgold

[AsburySkinsFan]

9 hours ago, twa said:

So you are saying cops unfamiliar with the people in the school would do better despite your story of cops shooting a hero kid.

 

how do you come to that conclusion

add

Let's continue with your visual aid, two people with guns pointed at each other what do you think the cops would do?

 

a sane one demands they both drop their weapons and shoots the one that turns the gun on them.

 

what would be your reaction?

 

further added

 

In your example a shooter is being stopped unless you believe the armed staff are going to be squaring off against each other....is that your assertion?

 

not that I expect a answer.

Hey I have a question for you, how can you tell the difference between a staff member with a gun and an active shooter?

 

You tell me, if the teacher is on left pulls the trigger what will be the reaction from the police?

 

”despite your story with the hero kid” translates as “ignore all evidence that proves my assertion false and you will see how right I am.”

 

Teacher lowers gun when ordered by police, shooter shoots teacher, shooter dies in hail of gun fire. Brilliant

 

In my example the teacher dies because they are not prepared to kill their student, the student now has another firearm.

 

Your fantasy is pure myth, and WILL get more people killed. All so the NRA can sell TWO guns!

10 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Just for fun. I looked up the number of schools in the United States. According to the Dept. of Education, there were 98,271 public schools as of the 2013-14 school year. Now, from the discussion I have been following, arming one or two teachers is insufficient to cover the school and address the risk. So, let's say you need an average of ten teachers per school that you are going to arm, train, and serve as extra security. That's 980,000 more guns in circulation or almost a million guns sold to teachers or the school system.

 

Is there any question why the NRA and Righties support this idea of arming teachers? It's a bloody windfall! Again, this idea is not about safety. It's certainly has nothing to do with trying to save lives. It’s about cold hard cash.

 

Almost a million more guns sold! NICE that’s the winning we were promised!! BTW, anyone thinking two armed teachers would be sufficient is delusional. This wjole thing is an exercise in absurdity! I thank god that our schools like many others have rejected this an a viable option.

[PeterMP]

23 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Just for fun. I looked up the number of schools in the United States. According to the Dept. of Education, there were 98,271 public schools as of the 2013-14 school year. Now, from the discussion I have been following, arming one or two teachers is insufficient to cover the school and address the risk. So, let's say you need an average of ten teachers per school that you are going to arm, train, and serve as extra security. That's 980,000 more guns in circulation or almost a million guns sold to teachers or the school system.

 

Is there any question why the NRA and Righties support this idea of arming teachers? It's a bloody windfall! Again, this idea is not about safety. It's certainly has nothing to do with trying to save lives. It’s about cold hard cash.

 

 

My daughters kindergarten had 10 teachers in the whole school (a public school).

[twa]

4 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Hey I have a question for you, how can you tell the difference between a staff member with a gun and an active shooter?

 

You tell me, if the teacher is on left pulls the trigger what will be the reaction from the police?

W/o a threat to the cop he should forcefully repeat himself, which is what standard protocol is.

If the gun is not lowered /dropped immediately t

hey will likely shoot.

4 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

 

”despite your story with the hero kid” translates as “ignore all evidence that proves my assertion false and you will see how right I am.”

 

Teacher lowers gun when ordered by police, shooter shoots teacher, shooter dies in hail of gun fire. Brilliant

 

In my example the teacher dies because they are not prepared to kill their student, the student now has another firearm.

 

That is a risk you take taking up a gun, though in real life the teacher would likely claim to be staff and have id visible and not lower their gun(and there are other markers commonly in use we don't go into)

 

The student would be dead from the cop unless they are incompetent, rendering no extra gun

 

Are you now changing your situation to the cop not being there and the teacher getting shot by the student?

Certainly a risk, but most come well armed already.

 

4 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Your fantasy is pure myth, and WILL get more people killed. All so the NRA can sell TWO guns!

Almost a million more guns sold! NICE that’s the winning we were promised!! BTW, anyone thinking two armed teachers would be sufficient is delusional. This wjole thing is an exercise in absurdity! I thank god that our schools like many others have rejected this an a viable option.

 

You keep worrying about the NRA or gun profits if ya wish, I got better things to do.

 

Where did I say just two armed teachers/staff?(though two are better than none)

Glad we at least agree two is insufficient or at least not optimal.

[Burgold]

3 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

My daughters kindergarten had 10 teachers in the whole school (a public school).

That's why I said on average. I've been in public schools with thousands of students and well over a hundred teachers and staff. Regardless, the argument being made above in this thread was that one teacher with a gun was likely not sufficient to stop an intruder. So perhaps you are describing a scenario where almost every teacher needs to be armed.

If our only solution is arming teachers then we need an army of teachers. Half a million to a million strong to keep our schools safe? Is that realistic, is it possible, is it feasible? 

[youngestson]

16 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Hey I have a question for you, how can you tell the difference between a staff member with a gun and an active shooter?

 

 

1

This ^^^^

 I don't want teachers having guns.

 

At all!  And I'm a teacher.   

 

 I don't think people appreciate how much training and practice using a handgun for protection requires. And that's just for personal carry. Imagine you're a teacher (or SRO for that matter) trying to hit a target, likely many yards away while panicked people run in every direction. On top of that have the first responders getting there as four or five people who are firing off rounds. Who do they focus on? Who do they go after? How can they identify who's the shooter and who is the History Teacher? 

[PeterMP]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/20/politics/donald-trump-bump-stocks/index.html

 

Trump moves to ban 'bump stocks'

 

Don't fall for this.  This isn't going to stop (or significantly reduce) mass shootings.  This isn't going to reduce violent crime.  All that's going to happen in 10 years is the numbers aren't going to be significantly different and the pro-gun lobby is going to say, 'we told the stupid liberals that gun control doesn't work.'

 

It happened with the AWB and will happen again.

 

We need good cross the board gun control that prevents people from walking into stores and buying (automatic) handguns with nothing more than a criminal background check.   As has correctly been pointed out, the Va Tech shooter killed a lot of people easily with 2  automatic pistols.

 

We need waiting periods, limits on how many guns can be bought how close together, limits on ammo purchases, and ideally a better background check than is what is currently being done for any and all rapid fire weapons, which is essentially any hand gun today.

Edited February 22, 2018 by PeterMP

[Burgold]

1 minute ago, youngestson said:

This ^^^^

 I don't want teachers having guns.

 

At all!  And I'm a teacher.   

 

 I don't think people appreciate how much training and practice using a handgun for protection requires. And that's just for personal carry. Imagine you're a teacher (or SRO for that matter) trying to hit a target, likely many yards away while panicked people run in every direction. On top of that have the first responders getting there as four or five people who are firing off rounds. Who do they focus on? Who do they go after? How can they identify who's the shooter and who is the History Teacher? 

I've been trying to argue this, the economic side of it, etc. It's just a bad strategy from all perspectives. 

[twa]

2 minutes ago, youngestson said:

This ^^^^

 I don't want teachers having guns.

 

At all!  And I'm a teacher.   

 

 I don't think people appreciate how much training and practice using a handgun for protection requires. And that's just for personal carry. Imagine you're a teacher (or SRO for that matter) trying to hit a target, likely many yards away while panicked people run in every direction. On top of that have the first responders getting there as four or five people who are firing off rounds. Who do they focus on? Who do they go after? How can they identify who's the shooter and who is the History Teacher? 

 

Do you wish to have uniformed armed security and pay for it?

 

Of course if there is no need....

[bearrock]

12 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Do you wish to have uniformed armed security and pay for it?

 

Maybe we should rethink that tax cut?

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

[youngestson]

16 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Do you wish to have uniformed armed security and pay for it?

 

Of course if there is no need....

I'm not sure if you mean a private security guard, or a county deputy, or local police, state police. 

Or, do you mean as a teacher I should pay for an SRO because I don't want to carry a gun?