twa Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Just now, Berggy9598 said: Maybe they're training to be navy seals by playing paintball. Unless of course the next Nikolas Cruz waltzes up to a classroom, knocks on the door, asks may he please speak with the teacher and says I'm coming through that door in exactly 30 seconds and I won't begin firing until you, kind teacher, tell me you're ready. Shooter is taken down, Dwayne Johnson says something clever, yet heart warming, and roll credits! And I guess he is using a silencer so no one is alerted? the waiting for tactical teams was abandoned for what reason?....can you tell me?(it is a really important reason) First responders can be anyone from a rookie w/60 hrs gun training on up(and that includes cleaning/care /storage and long gun use) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berggy9598 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 11 minutes ago, bearrock said: When the deterrent effect of teachers with guns don't work (how much of a deterrent is it supposed to be to someone who plans on mass carnage followed by a suicide at the scene?), what is a realistic expectation for a teacher armed with a handgun against a shooter armed with a semi auto rifle and protected by a bullet proof vest? Even if we secure the building, the next shooter will probably just follow the blueprints of the Vegas shooter. Sometimes good guys with guns may help. But lets not pretend that there aren't instances when it won't mean a damn thing. That "deterent" jibber jabber is not much more than an insult to our intelligence. With the state of mind that these kids were in, who on God's green earth believes the threat of an armed teacher will stop them? Heck Adam Lanza thought he was in a video game the thought of an armed teacher would have probably just excited him. 142 pages and I bet you not one rational to answer to why can't we do something to prevent the diagnosed mentally ill (with a history of violence in Cruz's case) from legally buying AR15s. I'm not talking about getting rid of all guns, I'm not even talking about limiting the number of guns a harmless know-it-all like TWA can have. Just that one specific issue of someone who couldn't pass a background check to work at Burger King legally and easily obtaining an AR15. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Hey genius....I suggested a way Guess I DO know it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berggy9598 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, twa said: And I guess he is using a silencer so no one is alerted? the waiting for tactical teams was abandoned for what reason?....can you tell me?(it is a really important reason) First responders can be anyone from a rookie w/60 hrs gun training on up(and that includes cleaning/care /storage and long gun use) As a matter of fact I can tell you. Nikolas Cruz's violent history pops up when he tries to buy an AR15. If that's too intrusive, Nikolas Cruz's violent history pops up when he buys enough ammo to take out dozens if not hundreds of people. At this point, if you want to work off the probability that a kid like that buys a gun from the Zoe Pound undetected, and that's if they don't kill him and take his money, be my guest. We're all working off probabilities, but I'll make him go that route to get his hands on his artillery before I believe arming untrained civilians will save lives. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I have suggested Red Flag laws, do you know what they are? Opening them up to school and health officials would improve on them more. Where did you get the idea I support arming untrained teachers/staff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 20 minutes ago, twa said: More of a deterrent than their flesh a handgun matches up well against a AR in close quarters, I prefer it Wear a vest and let me fire a couple into it and get back to me i'll even use a 9mm to be kind The next one very well could, but it is much harder to both execute and escape detection. Pretty sure I'm gonna prefer a nasty bruise and broken ribs to a hole in a chest. Pure guess though. Close quarters.... How about long hallways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Just now, bearrock said: Pretty sure I'm gonna prefer a nasty bruise and broken ribs to a hole in a chest. Pure guess though. Close quarters.... How about long hallways? Certainly preferable and debilitating to must. If you use the tactic Peter and I discussed there is no need for long hallway shooting.(it is less than desirable, but unless your group is exceptional it is safest) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 51 minutes ago, bearrock said: what is a realistic expectation for a teacher armed with a handgun against a shooter armed with a semi auto rifle and protected by a bullet proof vest? Not very good Better than nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 2 hours ago, visionary said: Proposed headline: La La La La - I Can't Hear You 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berggy9598 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 1 minute ago, twa said: I have suggested Red Flag laws, do you know what they are? Opening them up to school and health officials would improve on them more. Where did you get the idea I support arming untrained teachers/staff? In that case I was wrong and even if I didn't know what red flags are the term itself in this context is rather self-explanitory. I don't claim to know how these background checks would be administered and what the criteria would be. In the case of the Vegas shooter, unless there's some new information I'm unaware of, he would have passed a background check. It's just the fact that people (not you) dig their heals in when those red flag laws are suggested, when the perp is diagnosed and has a history on record that infuriates me. There are people out there that really do value the "ideology of guns" over human life. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Berggy9598 said: In the case of the Vegas shooter, unless there's some new information I'm unaware of, he would have passed a background check And the guy who shot up Sandy hook took the gun from his mother's house. The background check has its own bad odds, because even if someone is supposed to not get a gun the system can fail (was it air force or navy in hot **** for not getting violent charges added to the database?) Unless you're going to go around and collect the guns and bar sale of any more any system you come up with is going to have problems. Need to just start implementing them and seeing how the perform and tweaking them. Which is really the problem here. People talk about doing something - mag limit, ban models, background checks, etc. Odds are we're going to get 1 bill that does one thing and it'll pass and it'll been 50 or more school shootings later before anyone dares consider another. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berggy9598 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, tshile said: And the guy who shot up Sandy hook took the gun from his mother's house. The background check has its own bad odds, because even if someone is supposed to not get a gun the system can fail (was it air force or navy in hot **** for not getting violent charges added to the database?) Unless you're going to go around and collect the guns and bar sale of any more any system you come up with is going to have problems. Need to just start implementing them and seeing how the perform and tweaking them. Which is really the problem here. People talk about doing something - mag limit, ban models, background checks, etc. Odds are we're going to get 1 bill that does one thing and it'll pass and it'll been 50 or more school shootings later before anyone dares consider another. Lanza's mother would have been in jail if he didn't kill her imo. That's a blurry one because on one hand she had a safe full of rifles in the safest town in the country, but on the other hand she didn't do anything that would make her an unfit gun owner, which you'd point out if you were on the gun side. Criminal negligence at the very least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said: Lanza's mother would have been in jail if he didn't kill her imo. That's a blurry one because on one hand she had a safe full of rifles in the safest town in the country, but on the other hand she didn't do anything that would make her an unfit gun owner, which you'd point out if you were on the gun side. Criminal negligence at the very least. She had guns in a home with a person known to be unstable. I don't know how much weight that should carry when analyzing her level of fault. But it's an important detail. We need incremental, but measurable, change and we need an open mind to making another change in 6 months in light of new information on how guns get in the hands of people commuting mass shootings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I really think that the folks discussing marksmanship and target identification and the tactics of sweeping multiple rooms are enghaging in a distraction from what I think is the real matter that needs to be examined, when the notion of "we need more guns in the schools" distraction is brought up. Pick a high school. Let's say we arm four teachers. Now wait 1,000 days. (It's a round number, and I figure it's roughly equal to four school years.) How many mass shooters will there be, in those 1,000 days? Zero. In fact, arm four teachers each, in 1,000 high schools, for 1,000 days. There's still going to be zero mass shooters, for the teachers to defend against. However, what you will have done, is to put 4,000 guns into 1,000 schools, for 1,000 days. You want to try to say that there will be zero accidents? 4,000 guns in the school, for four years, and not one case of a kid getting a gun? Not one case of mistaken identity? Not one teacher decides that he needs a gun so he can break up a fight? (Or what he thinks is a child abduction, or some other scenario where he thinks a gun would help?) (Nobody decides to break in to the school and steal one of the guns?) Yeah, I will certainly agree that, if there's a mass shooting in progress, then having a few other guns there might well save several lives. (Even if all the teacher does is to hide in the classroom, with his class, with his pistol aimed at the door.) But in order to put that gun into that teacher's hand, during that mass shooting, you have to put a million guns into the hands of a million teachers and accept the damage that is guaranteed to happen, from all of those. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 We can't do anything extreme because then one side gets to take the credit and the other side has to eat ****, so we can't have that. Just move slowly enough so everyone feels like they contributed. In other words, conflict resolution for 5 year olds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Just now, Larry said: But in order to put that gun into that teacher's hand, during that mass shooting, you have to put a million guns into the hands of a million teachers and accept the damage that is guaranteed to happen, from all of those. so your position is the threat from mass shooters is rather low ,I can respect that, but would you object to it at the schools already targeted along with a couple armed guards....just to calm nerves?. I wonder if there have been any accidents in schools already arming trained staff? been going on for years or over a thousand days, surely they don't have a better safety record than school security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berggy9598 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 14 minutes ago, twa said: so your position is the threat from mass shooters is rather low ,I can respect that, but would you object to it at the schools already targeted along with a couple armed guards....just to calm nerves?. I wonder if there have been any accidents in schools already arming trained staff? been going on for years or over a thousand days, surely they don't have a better safety record than school security. My worry wouldn't so much be accidents or an unstable teacher who is now armed going loopy. In my opinion it's extremely low to on the probability scale that whatever training you want to put a civilian teacher through would be worthless if asked to do the job of a trained SWAT officer. Armed guards in school looks bad but we live in a crazy enough country that it's worth a conversation. Can you put one in let's say 3/4 of the locations in which they're needed across the country? I just think that for school shootings specifically, there is a somewhat consistent enough pattern with the perps that red flag laws and the such present the highest probability of stopping these horrific events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Just now, Berggy9598 said: My worry wouldn't so much be accidents or an unstable teacher who is now armed going loopy. In my opinion it's extremely low to on the probability scale that whatever training you want to put a civilian teacher through would be worthless if asked to do the job of a trained SWAT officer. Armed guards in school looks bad but we live in a crazy enough country that it's worth a conversation. Can you put one in let's say 3/4 of the locations in which they're needed across the country? I just think that for school shootings specifically, there is a somewhat consistent enough pattern with the perps that red flag laws and the such present the highest probability of stopping these horrific events. Well there is little now preventing loopy teachers arming themselves and going berserk. In general they would be expected to do less than a rookie police officer, with primary function being defending classroom or choke points(firedoors /stairwells ect) Going on offense certainly adds risk and best left to pros if possible. stopping them before it begins is certainly preferable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Larry said: Proposed headline: La La La La - I Can't Hear You 36-71. That's something a villain developer says to a group of kids once he's bought the orphanage he plans to turn into condos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD0506 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Larry said: Proposed headline: La La La La - I Can't Hear You Hey kids, you were just presented with an important lesson, hope you were paying attention, there will be a pop quiz later. In your passionate, idealistic ignorance of youth you have stumbled into a battle that has raged for longer than you've been alive. You have placed yourselves foursquare in opposition to entrenched forces that give no quarter, take no prisoners and don't give one small **** how many friends you lost or tears you shed. You took this first faltering shot and saw it fall woefully short, and they essentially laughed right in your tear-streaked faces. Broward ain't Florida, I guarantee people in your state have watched you on the tube and wished the body count was higher. Be strong, be stalwart, don't get discouraged. If you thought this might be easy it's time to put that aside. It isn't, it won't be, and the horror hiding behind the clown face chuckles in the dark, secure in its ability to win yet again. So many of us across the world hear you, cheer you, and will help in whatever way we can but this battle is yours to win.......... or lose. Edited February 21, 2018 by LD0506 Fat fingers- dammit! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Goodness the solution in this thread is to arm teachers? Lol. Who is going to pay for the guns and monthly training? How many nut job teachers will turn into mass murderers because of the easy access to a weapon Do we really want my 65 year old mother with a gun at school protecting kids? Lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Just now, SkinsHokieFan said: Goodness the solution in this thread is to arm teachers? Lol. Who is going to pay for the guns and monthly training? How many nut job teachers will turn into mass murderers because of the easy access to a weapon Do we really want my 65 year old mother with a gun at school protecting kids? Lol Ya'll sure are scared of teachers being nuts or incompetent Don't know about your mother, but I would mine when she was 65 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, Burgold said: That's why I said on average. I've been in public schools with thousands of students and well over a hundred teachers and staff. Regardless, the argument being made above in this thread was that one teacher with a gun was likely not sufficient to stop an intruder. So perhaps you are describing a scenario where almost every teacher needs to be armed. If our only solution is arming teachers then we need an army of teachers. Half a million to a million strong to keep our schools safe? Is that realistic, is it possible, is it feasible? Nobody (here) has said it the only solution. Even twa has suggested a litany of changes to gun control laws. YOU are BETTER than this. Stop arguing against straw men. Now, you've raised cost before and the question was asked what if somebody else payed for it. And your response is it is a bad idea. I asked, are you against having SRO officers in schools (where they don't have more training than your average cop)? If yes, are you against NYC having armed police patrol high traffic areas like Times Square? The fundamental fact is the more well trained people with a gun in the area the less likely a mass killer is going to be able to kill a lot of people. If it is one person, the odds don't go down much, but one is better than 0. 35 minutes ago, twa said: Ya'll sure are scared of teachers being nuts or incompetent Don't know about your mother, but I would mine when she was 65 I actually am. I don't see why teachers are less immune to issues with depression and mental health than any other profession. That's why when I've talked about the issue I've talked about regular (psych) evaluations. And it isn't like teachers aren't known to commit crimes even some of the crime we consider among the worse in society (e.g. pedophilia). Edited February 21, 2018 by PeterMP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, PeterMP said: If yes, are you against NYC having armed police patrol high traffic areas like Times Square? I ignored this question once. I will now let you know I am ignoring it. It's a troll's question. If you can't see a difference between armed police and armed teachers there's no point in discussing this topic with you. Police better be significantly more trained not only in use of firearms, but crisis management, and a host of other useful skills useful in an emergency. Edited February 21, 2018 by Burgold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Just now, PeterMP said: I actually am. I don't see why teachers are less immune to issues with depression and mental health than any other profession. That's why when I've talked about the issue I've talked about regular (psych) evaluations. And it isn't like teachers aren't known to commit crimes even some of the crime we consider among the worse in society (e.g. pedophilia). That is a reasonable concern, but adding the gun and screening/training does little to raise the risks of that nature that exist already. I'd certainly support a red flag clause specific to armed teachers/staff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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