CBS DC: IRS Getting Pressured To Crack Down On Televangelists Following John Oliver’s Segment

[Bang]

God acts in many ways and by many people. Maybe this is one of those ways?

 

Any way is one of those ways if all you do is keep looking for reasons to keep buying in to an obvious lie.

 

~Bang

[The Evil Genius]

I wouldn't be opposed to establishing a minimum percentage of donation income that a church or nonprofit organization needs to use for things other than income or items primarily used by the organizations leadership.

 

The "churches" in question here aren't really non-profit though. That's the problem.

 

These hucksters are making a killing financially and reaping the bennies of not having to pay taxes on it. 

[RedBeast]

staff deletion 

[Going Commando]

Serious question: why do we exempt religious organizations from taxes? I'm not trying to make a point, I honestly don't know the answer. There must have been a good reason for it.

[The Evil Genius]

Google tells me it's because of the " benefit conferred was incidental to the religious character of the institutions concerned."

 

You will have to get someone to translate that, though. 

[Destino]

The "churches" in question here aren't really non-profit though. That's the problem.

These hucksters are making a killing financially and reaping the bennies of not having to pay taxes on it.

That's my point. These people aren't spending the lion share of that money on things that could be considered worship or charity. I want there to be a standard. Build nicer churches, with bigger parking lots, or do something Christian like feed the hungry.... but do something other than spend it on big homes and private jets virtually no one else ever uses.

[Bang]

Serious question: why do we exempt religious organizations from taxes? I'm not trying to make a point, I honestly don't know the answer. There must have been a good reason for it.

I would assume the same reasoning behind tax breaks for charity.. to encourage good works in the community.

And while i believe that most churches do follow this as it should be (to an extent.. obviously not everyone is squeaky clean.) the people who this piece goes after are not religious organzations.

I guess the problem would be in proving it.

 

 

I don't recall what it was that brought the Bakkers down.. (and i don't really recall many others being laid low like that) but whatever it was could be maybe used in some sort of RICO-type act that would allow for prosecution of these frauds.

 

~Bang

[Going Commando]

Thanks for the answer Bang.

Then I guess my stance is to agree with Destino that there needs to be some sort of definition based on charity and good works to be considered a church. You should have to spend X amount of your income on actual services or church buildings to get tax exemption.

[thebluefood]

I was at a Bible study last night and the subject was sin and the affect of sin on our lives and the lives of those around us. One of the things we agreed on is that when we sin (that is to say, when we don't love God with all our being and treat others as we'd want to be treated. I find that one shows that love for God when they show love for others, but that's another topic for another day) it's best to own up to it immediately. Jim Baker's name came up as an example of what not to do.

 

It's a shame Televangelists who behave like con artists and preachers who don't seem to have anything better to do than project their own insecurities and prejudices are often the ones that dictate the conversation about faith in this country. It's an embarrassing thing to hear about their deeds and the pain they've caused people. But, perhaps this is why I feel like I'm being called to the priesthood. I'm sick of reading and hearing about this and I want to do something about it.

 

Our associate priest at my parish, Andrew, said the Church, at least in the west, undergoes dramatic changes every 500 years or so. The 500th anniversary of Luther posting the 95 theses on the Wittenburg Cathedral is coming up and as we've seen, Christianity's influence is waning in America and seems to be an almost non-factor in Europe. We are quickly losing our privilege and being a Christian is no longer a standard for any moral, political or social status (at least, it seems to be approaching that place in the States). Personally? I couldn't be happier about it. In order for the Church to do its best work, I believe it must be stripped of privilege so it can serve "the least of these" as we've been called to do from the beginning.

 

Thanks for reminding me of the John Oliver video. Perhaps if we all take our medicine and acknowledge the great sins we've committed, or at least been complicit to, the Church we be better off for it.

[PokerPacker]

That's my point. These people aren't spending the lion share of that money on things that could be considered worship or charity. I want there to be a standard. Build nicer churches, with bigger parking lots, or do something Christian like feed the hungry.... but do something other than spend it on big homes and private jets virtually no one else ever uses.

By setting standards, you are legislating religion.

[Destino]

By setting standards, you are legislating religion.

You're right. I know you mean that sarcastically but you're right. That's the difficulty. The wall of separation works both ways and people can choose to worship an individual and give them all their money and it's a religion.

[PokerPacker]

You're right. I know you mean that sarcastically but you're right. That's the difficulty. The wall of separation works both ways and people can choose to worship an individual and give them all their money and it's a religion.

I'm actually not being sarcastic. That is part of the reason that I support eliminating the tax-free status of churches; it creates a link between government and religion. At a glance, it looks to be a one-way link with religion benefiting from tax-free status, but then it also the door to regulation of religion, which should not happen. I also oppose the tax-free status of religions from the direction in that making an organization tax exempt is essentially taxing everyone else to support that group, and government supporting religion also shouldn't happen. So in my opinion, the tax-exempt status of religions should be an issue for both the religious and the non-religious.

[Zguy28]

The "churches" in question here aren't really non-profit though. That's the problem.

 

These hucksters are making a killing financially and reaping the bennies of not having to pay taxes on it. 

The individuals do pay income tax though. Although many I'm sure get around that by the organization itself owning the assets.

I'm actually not being sarcastic. That is part of the reason that I support eliminating the tax-free status of churches; it creates a link between government and religion. At a glance, it looks to be a one-way link with religion benefiting from tax-free status, but then it also the door to regulation of religion, which should not happen. I also oppose the tax-free status of religions from the direction in that making an organization tax exempt is essentially taxing everyone else to support that group, and government supporting religion also shouldn't happen. So in my opinion, the tax-exempt status of religions should be an issue for both the religious and the non-religious.

How is not taxing a church "essentially taxing everyone else to support that group"? They don't receive anything tangible from the gov't. That part of your argument is nonsense.

 

If you do away with exemptions, a whole of churches will be shutting their doors and whole lot of empty, decaying buildings.

[grego]

(John Oliver clip)

Mr Oliver ought to do some research, but the cheap laugh is too much to resist, apparently.

[Going Commando]

I'm actually not being sarcastic. That is part of the reason that I support eliminating the tax-free status of churches; it creates a link between government and religion. At a glance, it looks to be a one-way link with religion benefiting from tax-free status, but then it also the door to regulation of religion, which should not happen. I also oppose the tax-free status of religions from the direction in that making an organization tax exempt is essentially taxing everyone else to support that group, and government supporting religion also shouldn't happen. So in my opinion, the tax-exempt status of religions should be an issue for both the religious and the non-religious.

There are a lot of churches that do good work in their communities--social work, helping the homeless, helping addicts, etc. If they need tax exemptions to operate, then they should have them. It's a tax exemption that actually does tangible good for society. Hell, some churches probably save us money by being a private organization that takes on some of the burden of social work.

We shouldn't abandon this simply because we're too intellectually lazy or politically fearful to identify and separate out the charlatans.

[Dan T.]

<staff deleted>

 

He certainly did his research on Robert Tilton.  He researched the hell out of that son of a ****.  So what's your point?

[mrcunning15]

The issue here is not just separation of church and state and government regulating religion, this more has to do with consumer protection/fraud.

 

I mean a church can't perform rituals in sacrificing/killing humans without being charged with murder so I don't see how what these guys are doing is not breaking the law. If you take away the religion aspect of this these guys are just con-artists and they are using a medium (TV and internet) that has regulations against this sort of behavior for other entities. 

[Elessar78]

Is this that "War on Christianity" I've been hearing about?

It's the "War on "Christianity"", that you've been hearing about. 

[grego]

He certainly did his research on Robert Tilton. He researched the hell out of that son of a ****. So what's your point?

Sorry - the clip I was referring to was the Redskins one.

Should have quoted and deleted it for clarity.

[Dan T.]

Sorry - the clip I was referring to was the Redskins one.

Should have quoted and deleted it for clarity.

 

Ah, OK.

 

As for Tilton, as far as I can tell, the only "charitable works" his organization does is to take all the prayer requests sent in by viewers, separate them from the enclosed "vows" - recommended by his church in the amount of $1,000 - make a large pile of them, and either throw them away or, if the viewer is lucky, say a prayer over them.  That's it. 

 

At its height, his Success-N-Life ministry was taking in more than $80 million a year, until his scam was exposed by ABC News and the State of Texas in the early 90s.  He took his program off the air and laid low for awhile.  He reemerged in the late 90s with a different name for his "ministry," abandoned that one, then reconstituted the Success-N-Life "ministry" in the mid 2000s on the BET network.  By one estimate, his revised "church," with lower overhead, was raking in $24 million a year.

 

Hallelujah.

[Zguy28]

Ah, OK.

 

As for Tilton, as far as I can tell, the only "charitable works" his organization does is to take all the prayer requests sent in by viewers, separate them from the enclosed "vows" - recommended by his church in the amount of $1,000 - make a large pile of them, and either throw them away or, if the viewer is lucky, say a prayer over them.  That's it. 

 

At its height, his Success-N-Life ministry was taking in more than $80 million a year, until his scam was exposed by ABC News and the State of Texas in the early 90s.  He took his program off the air and laid low for awhile.  He reemerged in the late 90s with a different name for his "ministry," abandoned that one, then reconstituted the Success-N-Life "ministry" in the mid 2000s on the BET network.  By one estimate, his revised "church," with lower overhead, was raking in $24 million a year.

 

Hallelujah.

If you really want to vomit, look up Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar and the Kansas City prophets.

 

One of my Southern Baptist seminary professors wrote a book about this heresy: "Health, Wealth, and Happiness: Has the Prosperity Gospel Overshadowed the Gospel of Christ?"

 

Ultimately, the source can be traced back to a non-Christian mysticism that had to with positive thinking.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Thought

[grego]

Peter Popov was another one who was huge in the 80s, got exposed as a fraud, and, somehow, came back.

Crazy.

I'll give Jim Bakker credit for realizing his errors.

He wrote a book that basically condemned the prosperity gospel. The scary part was that he, at one time, believed it, rather than being a guy who knew he was a fraud.

[Zguy28]

Peter Popov was another one who was huge in the 80s, got exposed as a fraud, and, somehow, came back.

Crazy.

I'll give Jim Bakker credit for realizing his errors.

He wrote a book that basically condemned the prosperity gospel. The scary part was that he, at one time, believed it, rather than being a guy who knew he was a fraud.

Then he met Jessica Hahn and down he went.

[Xameil]

Then he met Jessica Hahn and down he went.

So did she....

[Jumbo]

Sorry - the clip I was referring to was the Redskins one.

Should have quoted and deleted it for clarity.

 

 I had the same reaction Dan T did to your comment. I should have deleted the Redskins clip post earlier when I saw it and thought "how is that going to be on topic" but I didn't care to watch it so I just moved on. And I kind of figured the point was probably a "look at what dumbass said about our team so why believe anything else" kind of deal.

 

Whatever it was, I'm going to delete it to avoid more of the same (no probs/penalties with anyone involved, just 'splainin').