Dan T. Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 The whole event is nonsense. We only have opposition responses since the 60's. The clapping or now booing and outbursts. Hats off to the President or Party who changes how all this goes down in the future. I don't know how. Make it shorter. Ask for no applause or boos until the end. End the response, at least the night of. The past few its been like they are guessing what he'll say and then end up to responding to something totally different. Hell, I'd be fine with once every other year for the damn thing. It's only been since the 20th century and Woodrow Wilson that it's even been a speech. Past presidents would just give a written report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 It's only been since the 20th century and Woodrow Wilson that it's even been a speech. Past presidents would just give a written report. they should go back to that, and naturally post it to the websites.....TV is too much of a draw for the politicos though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Agreed. Of just have the President do it from the WH and let everybody watch just like us Citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Perhaps a better way of expressing my assertion, Peter: (Re: the assertion that raising min wage will raise the wages of everybody else at the low end of the wage scale.) When the market negotiates prices for something, those negotiations do not take place in a vacuum. The price of natural gas affects the price of oil. Well, when the market decided that that CNA was worth $10, one of the forces that affected that price, was the minimum wage. (And the wages of lots of other, similar, jobs.) Change that force (and lots of other, similar, forces), and you are going to get a different "balance point". Larry, I essentially made (or conceded, depending on how you want to think about) most of these points in my post. And even tied it into how that affects incentives to education. But it isn't simply person X has less skills than you so you need to be paid more than person Y as you suggested in your initial post. Sometimes I after making a post I do some significant edits that take me longer than somebody to respond, but I don't think I did that with that post and the post doesn't say it was edited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I like the way it is even if it does run long sometimes. More people actually know about it as a result and if went to some written report, how many of us would actually read it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Another way of looking at is reading some of the studies done on the rising costs of education, and some of the thoughts behind it being (in part) caused by the federal government providing such easy access to money for people to get into the education system. Can you cite such a study? The studies I read talk about real costs of universities going up while public funding goes down: https://news.cs.washington.edu/2012/06/24/washington-states-broken-model-for-higher-education-funding/ “The cost of educating a student at the University of Washington is about $400 less today, in inflation adjusted dollars, than it was 20 years ago … The next time anyone questions why public university tuition is rising faster than inflation, remember this: Twenty years ago, the state government paid 80 percent of the cost of a student’s education and a student paid 20 percent. Today, the state pays 30 percent of the cost, and the student pays 70 percent. The state has systematically disinvested in our children’s future, and we view this trend with disappointment and alarm.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I like the way it is even if it does run long sometimes. More people actually know about it as a result and if went to some written report, how many of us would actually read it? Judging by the number of times i see people say things that indicate they read the headline, but not the actual article.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Can you cite such a study? The studies I read talk about real costs of universities going up while public funding goes down: https://news.cs.washington.edu/2012/06/24/washington-states-broken-model-for-higher-education-funding/ “The cost of educating a student at the University of Washington is about $400 less today, in inflation adjusted dollars, than it was 20 years ago … The next time anyone questions why public university tuition is rising faster than inflation, remember this: Twenty years ago, the state government paid 80 percent of the cost of a student’s education and a student paid 20 percent. Today, the state pays 30 percent of the cost, and the student pays 70 percent. The state has systematically disinvested in our children’s future, and we view this trend with disappointment and alarm.” look into the bennett hypothesis. there's a lot of studies on the issue. there isn't a direct causation to be drawn, but a lot of interesting information that leads to a lot of different conclusions. part of the problem is it's a complex situation and many people try to find one issue as the reason and then beat the rest of us over the brow about it. it's a combination of multiple issues, and i think there's a reasonable argument that our model for student loans is one of them. you're talking about public funding - i'm talking about government backed/controlled student loans (in their various forms.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 look into the bennett hypothesis. there's a lot of studies on the issue. there isn't a direct causation to be drawn, but a lot of interesting information that leads to a lot of different conclusions. part of the problem is it's a complex situation and many people try to find one issue as the reason and then beat the rest of us over the brow about it. it's a combination of multiple issues, and i think there's a reasonable argument that our model for student loans is one of them. you're talking about public funding - i'm talking about government backed/controlled student loans (in their various forms.) Hypothetical studies some times are good and fine, but I can support that costs to colleges are up and all things can be made complex if we want to make them. This includes things like health care costs, but also government mandated costs (e.g. See the thread on the UVA "rape" and the requirements due to Title IX and think about the associated administrative costs). And this while public funding is down. Expenses are up. Revenue from the other major source (i.e. public funding) is down. And so the other major stream of revenue (i.e. tuition) has to go up to make up the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boobiemiles Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I am still waiting to hear what the GoP plans to do. I did not like Ernst response. Honestly I don't like most the response on this post. Obama proposed a progressive agenda. Repealing Universal Health Care, or the Dodd Frank act is not the way to do it. What is that about anyway? Smaller govt should not mean less regulation to protect the American citizen as a whole. Two years of education would help transform our work force from manufacturing to corporate. I don't understand why anyone would oppose this. When money spent is for self improvement, then you are investing in yourself. That is not a hand out, that is the helping people help everybody. You are only as good as your weakest link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacase Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 One big thing I keep seeing, every time a discussion of the minimum wage comes up, is what I think of as an incredibly huge myth, in the debate. The myth that changing the minimum wage affects only people making exactly the minimum wage. It won't. An increase in the minimum wage will have ripple effects which will raise the income of everybody at the low end of the wage scale. Raise the minimum wage from $8 to $10, and yes, the burger flipper who's making $8 will get a raise to $10. But the CNAs down at the nursing home who are making $10? They'll get a raise, too. Because they have a skill which makes them more valuable than the burger flipper. Same reason why they make more than minimum wage, now. Now, whether this lifting of the wages of everybody at the lower end of the wage scale is a good thing, I can see debate over. (Somebody has already pointed at automation as another effect.) It means that both the wage increases, and the inflation of costs and prices, will be larger than you would expect from only raising the wages of burger flippers. ---------- Just my opinion, but I think it's so glaringly obvious that it sure looks beyond debate, to me. Raise the minimum wage, and you aren't just giving a raise to the burger flipper and the idiots at Wal Mart. You're also giving a raise to the CNAs. The vet techs. Plumbers and electricians. Teachers? Dental hygienists. Auto mechanics. In short, a whole bunch of "the working poor". (And, heck, maybe a bit of a reduction in the amount of government assistance that those people are receiving, right now. But I don't think that's guaranteed. For several reasons. I certainly wouldn't consider that to be such an obvious result.) No it wont' WAAAAAY back in the day when I was working at Wal Mart and the minimum wage was raised from 4.25 to whatever it was raised to I remember being happy because I made what the new minimum wage was. I asked my boss when I would get my raise. The reply was "you won't". Even through I hard earned raises for the past two years I wasn't beyond what the new minimum was so they paid me the minimum. I was very salty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Obama stooped to their level. He won the pissing match, but he still stooped. Fox News: Obama squats to piss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Hypothetical studies some times are good and fine Why are these hypothetical studies? Have you bothered to look into them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Why are these hypothetical studies? Have you bothered to look into them? Studies that don't try and address direct causation (which is what you suggested in your post) by their nature are hypothetical. Yes? It is possible that A caused B, but I haven't/can't addressed whether it is actual causative. It is possible (hypothetical) that A caused B. Can you point me to a study? I did find this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/the-urban-legend-of-the-bennett-hypothesis-or-why-student-aid-is-not-driving-up-college-costs/2012/05/31/gJQAFvEX5U_blog.html "Continuous pressures to examine the Bennett hypothesis have led to nearly 15 years of federal research. Studies conducted during three successive administrations — Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Barack Obama — have found no link between student aid and tuition increases. The hypothesis is nothing more than an urban legend." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 they should go back to that, and naturally post it to the websites.....TV is too much of a draw for the politicos though Obama kind of did that this time... prereleasing the entire script even before they sent it to the talking heads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stadium-Armory Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I'd like to hear reactions to Iowa Senator Joni Ernst and the Republican response she delivered. Zombie Palin clone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Studies that don't try and address direct causation (which is what you suggested in your post) by their nature are hypothetical. Yes? That's not what I said... There are numerous studies. They've easily available via google. If you don't care what they have to say and/or don't care to read them, so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Zombie Palin clone. I was underwhelmed. I sensed a vacuousness behind the smile, but I don't know if that was my bias showing. I wonder how conservatives feel about her emerging as a party standard-bearer. She's the one who gained notoriety during her Senate campaign with the squealing pig ads: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Y24MFOfFU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVAbrendan Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I actually LOL'ed when Ernst said "I worked the morning biscuit line at Hardees." (I only laughed because I didn't expect to hear about Hardee's biscuits in a SOTU response) Hey, the response was better than Rubio's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I actually LOL'ed when Ernst said "I worked the morning biscuit line at Hardees." Hey, the response was better than Rubio's... Elitist I was underwhelmed. I sensed a vacuousness behind the smile, but I don't know if that was my bias showing. I wonder how conservatives feel about her emerging as a party standard-bearer. I think I like her more every day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I think I like her more every day You should suggest her for POTUS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsmarydu Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Those biscuits are harder to make than they look, rofl I was a Hardees manager, can I do the next response? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 is every female that makes it to some level of noticeable status in the GOP (a president/vp candidate, rebuttal speaker, etc) destined to be labeled as another coming of sarah palin? are these the same people telling the rest of us we're sexist and such? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 is every female that makes it to some level of noticeable status in the GOP (a president/vp candidate, rebuttal speaker, etc) destined to be labeled as another coming of sarah palin? are these the same people telling the rest of us we're sexist and such? Shhh, it's only sexist when the other side does it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 If CC is free for everyone, you just devalued CC. It will become the new HS, and soon enough the standards will begin to lower. I hate this idea. I would he way more supportive of federal grants to cover technical/vocational schools the US is sorely lacking in. Plumbing. Electrical. Welding. Tradecraft. Don't devalue CC, something the working class is already using to better themselves. I think the comparison to making high school free is a good one. The vast majority gets a diploma now, and we are better for it. The same would be the case with community college degrees. A better educated society is a better society. Also I think you underestimate the amount of vocational training the community colleges offer. The school I teach at, for example, has aviation, nursing, automotive tech, and other such vocational programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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