Is Gruden an NFL Coach?

[skins214428hail]

In 326 posts?

 

You have NO IDEA buddy

For the record. I live and breathe the burgundy and gold. Just because i dont post a whole lot on here doesn't mean i dont know my stuff. I havent missed a game since 1987. I have read so many articles that I am a living breathing Redskin Know it all.

Kinda funny because I remember that and thought Wilson would at worst be a guy like Flutie who just found ways to win. Every time I brought him up his rookie year all I heard was the hate too lol.

Wilson wasn't a guy I was to big on. But i wish we had him now. I am pretty sure Shanny was big on this guy and tannehill.

[Aireskoi]

 

check this ... see bold. 

 

 

 

 

Great ideas for Alex, but Robert wont throw to the open guy, so I don't see that working for us.

 

Think more Tarvaris Jackson than Alex Smith.

[JoeWolf990]

Powerful insight. Thankyou for sharing.

it was as much insight as your post, tbf

[Forehead]

 

I'll also add this: Hindsight talking loud here, but man, it would have been nice to keep those extra two firsts and come away with Tannehill in the first round in the 2012 draft if Griffin doesn't turn this around.

 

I checked the 2012 NFL Draft.  One of the O-linemen drafted right near where our second rounder would have been was Jonathan Martin.  Hopefully we didn't have any bullies on the team or we'd be the team who couldn't control our locker room.  The other was Cordy Glenn, who, as near as I can tell, hasn't done much with the Bills, though he is a starter.

[KDawg]

I checked the 2012 NFL Draft.  One of the O-linemen drafted right near where our second rounder would have been was Jonathan Martin.  Hopefully we didn't have any bullies on the team or we'd be the team who couldn't control our locker room.  The other was Cordy Glenn, who, as near as I can tell, hasn't done much with the Bills, though he is a starter.

I didn't say anything about OL in any particular round there...

[Brokenstriker]

Just heard this on the radio:

 

Offense is 1-40 converting 3&9

 

During the game they said the offense hasn't scored on the 1st drive all season

how were the 2011 - 2013 Bengals?

[Hooper]

We'll never know with RG3 under center.

 

I mean, we were worse last year and Shanny could coach. That's why he benched RG3 and called it something else.

 

And stop with the read option stuff. We run some. Could we run more? Sure. But RG3 is such a different guy physically and on top of that, the league has adjusted. 

[skins214428hail]

it was as much insight as your post, tbf

your crazy. but i like you

[NoCalMike]

For the record, Robert was not bad in 2013.  He was trying to execute the 2012 offense too soon after his injury and we saw the results suffer on the field for it.  Blame can go all around for that, but his passing stats in 2013 were not nearly as bad as a lot of folks on here like to believe they were. Plus, he still looked competant at the position, but he was showing signs of the injury affecting his throws, stuff like sailing balls that he would have put zip on in 2012, that wasn't mental lapses, it was a guy who couldn't physically do the same things. He was making the right reads, but just missing throws that he made in 2012, that is not a sign of someone who isn't smart, it was a sign that physically he was playing too soon after surgery on his knee.

 

2014 is an entirely different beast, he is in a new offense, learning all over again and he is struggling at it for now.

 

But there is no way you can call 2013 and 2014 the same situation.  They just don't compare.  2013 was a down year from 2012 but it was nothing like we are seeing now. Kyle was still getting productivity out of Robert in 2013.

[Hooper]

 He was making the right reads, but just missing throws that he made in 2012, that is not a sign of someone who isn't smart, it was a sign that physically he was playing too soon after surgery on his knee.

 

2014 is an entirely different beast, he is in a new offense, learning all over again and he is struggling at it for now.

 

But there is no way you can call 2013 and 2014 the same situation.  They just don't compare.  2013 was a down year from 2012 but it was nothing like we are seeing now. Kyle was still getting productivity out of Robert in 2013.

He was not making the right reads on anything close to a consistent basis.

 

And he was benched. Shanny just spun it, then trashed RG3 secretly to the media because he didn't know how to come out say "I can't win with the guy I traded a billion picks for."

 

Now to be fair, RG3's ankle injury has only compounded his issues. His lower body is a wreck.

[darrelgreenie]

how were the 2011 - 2013 Bengals?

No idea.

[Hooper]

how were the 2011 - 2013 Bengals?

Well it's pretty clear Andy Dalton has regressed under Hue Jackson.

[Warhead36]

It remains to be seen. I think he does some things well but other things not so well. I'd like to give him a couple years though to see if he develops.

[Burgold]

It remains to be seen. I think he does some things well but other things not so well. I'd like to give him a couple years though to see if he develops.

He's running out of a couple more years.  He really needs to begin making a statement.  I'm holding out hope, but next season is pretty much do or die and really you need the light bulb to go off somewhere in the next few games.  This regression has been horrible and painful. The things he did easily like flipping a ball on the run are now looking like armless McNabb ducks.

 

I think he needs a good hypnotherapist.

[Brokenstriker]

No idea.

I didn't when I asked ... but turns out 3rd and 10+ conversion rates for the Jay Gruden coordinated, Dalton QB'ed Bengals

2011 - 9 of 59  (15.25%)

2012 - 11 of 45  (24.44%)

2013 - 17 of 61  (27.86%)

 

without Gruden in 2014:  6 of 39  (15.38%)

[Audible_Red40]

Let's not pin this on Jay being a head coach.  He's 11 games into his "career".

 

In their 1st season:

 

Tom Landry won 0 games.

Jimmy Johnson won 1 game

Joe Gibbs won 8

Mike Ditka won 3 (shortened season)

Bill Belichick won 5 (with NE, and stunk in CLE))

Bill Walsh won 2

Bill Parcells won 3

 

Shall I go on.  Are they "an NFL Coach"?

[lovemaskins]

I think the problem isn't that Griffin can't execute a complex offense. I think the problem is whether or Jay is inclined to put in heavy work required to teach his offense to a QB, to use Gruden's words, as 'raw' as Griffin.

People forget that Andy Dalton did not come from a 'pro-style' offense; Dalton, like Griffin, came from a similar spread zone-read offense.

A pointless question is whether or not we would even be in this dilemma if Jay was never presented with the option of playing a QB he didn't have to groom, a QB that already had the basics of WCO like Kirk?

 

I can't tell if this is hyperbole or you really believe that the entire offense was 1 read then run.

 

Funny how things come full circle. Back then I had Russell Wilson in my sig. And even though I liked Griffin I was against the trading those picks for any QB because it cripples your ability to build a team. Now it seem I'm one of the few that doesn't think Griffin sucks, lol.

 

  

Is he? I think Jay looks pretty clean in all this right now. Gruden made sure that everyone knows that its not his fault that he can't work with the coddled, entitled, lazy, unsure/gunshy, unprepared QB that lacks fundamentals. Heck, even his brother's QB,Rich Gannon, was parroting Jay's comments about Griffin.

But technically, isn't this the coach's responsibility?  His job was to come to DC with a QB that undoubtedly had some flaws with his mechanics and needed a system tailored to his strengths while minimizing his weaknesses.   

 

Yet, now when we watch on Sunday at Griffin's footwork and mechanics he seems to be regressing.  I'm sorry, but I call foul on the coach and his staff.  Okay, he doesn't read defenses well, but taking a 5 step drop and taking two forward is rudimentary.  A QB coach should have worked with Robert's fundamentals all offseason.   

 

He shouldn't be throwing off the wrong foot, or have his feet together when he throws.  But that's exactly the point here.  I don't see my team being coached up.  Where's the technique for the lineman, why is Niles Paul still blocking on running plays.  Stuff like that makes me question his coaching ability.

 

But boy he's great in a press conference.  Only Redskins fans.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

He's running out of a couple more years.  He really needs to begin making a statement.  I'm holding out hope, but next season is pretty much do or die and really you need the light bulb to go off somewhere in the next few games.  This regression has been horrible and painful. The things he did easily like flipping a ball on the run are now looking like armless McNabb ducks.

 

I think he needs a good hypnotherapist.

 

Jay Gruden has only been the coach for roughly 70% of one season. 

Let's not pin this on Jay being a head coach.  He's 11 games into his "career".

 

In their 1st season:

 

Tom Landry won 0 games.

Jimmy Johnson won 1 game

Joe Gibbs won 8

Mike Ditka won 3 (shortened season)

Bill Belichick won 5 (with NE, and stunk in CLE))

Bill Walsh won 2

Bill Parcells won 3

 

Shall I go on.  Are they "an NFL Coach"?

 

Right...and with the legendary coaches you generally read or hear about some show of leadership in an otherwise bleak year that let the guys know things were changing. Maybe some of these things that Jay is doing (stripping away "star" treatment, holding players accountable, etc.) will breed a different culture for this team and the organization. 

[Brokenstriker]

But technically, isn't this the coach's responsibility?  His job was to come to DC with a QB that undoubtedly had some flaws with his mechanics and needed a system tailored to his strengths while minimizing his weaknesses.   

Its obviously not just flaws in his mechanics ... its also flaws in "how he plays" the position.  Until coaches can control how a player plays the game this part of it is up to the player.  You can tell them how you want them to do it ... but you can't do it for them.  Bad reads, bad pocket presense, indecision, hessitation, desperation, not knowing where your players are, not knowing if your players are in the correct position ...

[lovemaskins]

Its obviously not just flaws in his mechanics ... its also flaws in "how he plays" the position.  Until coaches can control how a player plays the game this part of it is up to the player.  You can tell them how you want them to do it ... but you can't do it for them.  Bad reads, bad pocket presense, indecision, hessitation, desperation, not knowing where your players are, not knowing if your players are in the correct position ...

I'll agree with some of what you are saying.  I've always said as far as the QB is concerned, they give you the football every play, it's your job to execute.  But, it's still the coaches responsibility to ensure to team is in the best situation to win.  Gruden is supposed the make sure the small things are taken care of.

Griffin's footwork, and how to take a 3/5/7 step drop and step into a throw is on the coaching staff.  During the offseason, these are techniques you drill. 

 

I'm hoping this thread doesn't turn into another RG3 discussion, as his situation just has to play itself out.  I'm more concerned with Gruden. 

 

A couple of weeks back against the Cowboys, I sat there and watched Gruden let the play clock expire during a critical 3rd down play which cost us points.  It was a play I was sure to come back and haunt us, fortunately it didn't, but he's suppose to be on top of stuff like that.  Not standing there looking at his play sheet while we take a five yard loss with a deer in headlights Colt McCoy.

[Jacoby6644]

The read option, Kyle Shanahan developed an offense that torched teams two years ago, and worked well last year with a gimpy Griffin, and the concepts are still being used by Cam Newton, Russell Wilson, Colin Kaepernick, and other QBs around the league.  I've even seen Peyton Manning run a few plays with it. 

 

Not saying we should go back to the pistol, but read option should certainly be a staple in our offense with Robert behind center and with this terrible O-line.  He should be in the shotgun almost 50% of the time.

I would add hurry up or at least more up tempo style of play as we'll. My issue with JG is that he doesn't coach to the talent that is on the roster. I'm not purely referring to RGIII either. The online is not good. Period. So as stated in the above let's help create more advantageous situations for the offense, shotgun ( gives the QB more time to operate because he is where he needs to be to throw the ball, less of a drop required), more up tempo style (will start to get the defense tired minimize substitutions), and run the ball which the did well yesterday.

These things should all help to take some pressure of of an all ready struggling o-line and provide the QB a little more breathing room to make plays.

Gruden seems to be IMO, here is my system and I want to impose my will on the other team. Problem is that beside WR and RB, the Redskins don't have any players on the offensive side of the ball that can execute that with any bit of consistency and have not any coaching that has helped to improve that.

I also agree with others that have posted that he has underestimated the amount of work to be done here and he has taken on too much responsibility for a first time HC.

[Burgold]

I don't think that Gruden is stuck on his system.  He's already incorporated a lot of Shanahan's run plays for Morris.  THe trap he falls into is the same one Shanny did last year.  With the offense executing poorly, he keeps dumbing down the plays. That makes it simpler for the defense and reinforces a message of lack of confidence to the O.  I'd argue he's got to find a way to open it up and challenge his team.  Let them rise to the occasion or fail miserably.

 

We're not going to succeed by being blander than vanilla.

[SteveFromYellowstone]

It's not Gruden's fault management is making him stick with an absolute failure of a qb. It certainly doesn't help that we have one of the league's worst GMs also.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I think the problem isn't that Griffin can't execute a complex offense. I think the problem is whether or Jay is inclined to put in heavy work required to teach his offense to a QB, to use Gruden's words, as 'raw' as Griffin.

People forget that Andy Dalton did not come from a 'pro-style' offense; Dalton, like Griffin, came from a similar spread zone-read offense.

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here. What do you mean "Jay's included to put in heavy work required" to teach his offense to a QB? He clearly took the time, as you noted, to teach it to Dalton. Why would you think that he WOULDN'T put in the time for Griffin?

One other thought: Sometimes you can be very willing to teach somebody something, and they're not willing to learn. We have no way of knowing about how coach-able Griffin is. Except for the fact that this is year 3 and he's still struggling with the most basic concepts. And I refuse to believe that Kyle/Mike or Gruden can't teach. Their track records indicate they can.

Sometimes it's the teacher. There are other times when it's the student.

A pointless question is whether or not we would even be in this dilemma if Jay was never presented with the option of playing a QB he didn't have to groom, a QB that already had the basics of WCO like Kirk?

I'm also not sure where you're going here. He didn't play Kirk until Griffin got injured. Griffin took the first team reps all through the off-season and TC, and Kirk came in when he got hurt. Then he struggled with turnovers, so Jay turned to McCoy.

I'm not sure how the situation would be any different if Kirk was somewhere else...

I can't tell if this is hyperbole or you really believe that the entire offense was 1 read then run.

On several occasions on the radio, Cooley stated that in the offensive install meetings, Griffin was coached by Kyle to "look here, look there, if it's not there, run." He said that Kyle basically built an offense that allowed Griffin to have one read on a play, and if he didn't see something he liked, to just bail and become a runner.

I'm sure that wasn't true for every play, but this is one of the first things Cooley said about Griffin and the offense when he started the radio gig.

And I trust Cooley on that implicitly, since he was in the meetings as a player in 2012.

Funny how things come full circle. Back then I had Russell Wilson in my sig. And even though I liked Griffin I was against the trading those picks for any QB because it cripples your ability to build a team. Now it seem I'm one of the few that doesn't think Griffin sucks, lol.

 

That is kindof odd. I've always liked Griffin. I don't know how good he can be anymore. Though, at the moment, he's playing like a bottom 5-10 QB in the league. That's not good. (I have deep emotional issues that cause me not to like Wilson, and it has NOTHING to do with him as a person or a player, but does have to do with the fact he played for NC State.)

Is he? I think Jay looks pretty clean in all this right now. Gruden made sure that everyone knows that its not his fault that he can't work with the coddled, entitled, lazy, unsure/gunshy, unprepared QB that lacks fundamentals. Heck, even his brother's QB,Rich Gannon, was parroting Jay's comments about Griffin.

I think whenever a team is 3-8, the HC is blamed. There are people talking about whether he could be 1 and done. Those stories are out there.

You know, I missed the Gannon/Jon connection. Didn't really matter, I didn't listen to the broadcast, so I have no idea what he said.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I don't think that Gruden is stuck on his system.  He's already incorporated a lot of Shanahan's run plays for Morris.  THe trap he falls into is the same one Shanny did last year.  With the offense executing poorly, he keeps dumbing down the plays. That makes it simpler for the defense and reinforces a message of lack of confidence to the O.  I'd argue he's got to find a way to open it up and challenge his team.  Let them rise to the occasion or fail miserably.

 

We're not going to succeed by being blander than vanilla.

It's interesting.People seem to forget this.  Gruden is as willing, probably TOO willing, to adapt, as any coach I've seen.  

 

It's just tough to figure out what to do when your QB has shown that he struggles with consistency at just about everything.  

 

If there was one thing that Griffin was currently doing consistently well, then you can build on that.  Fact is, there isn't.  He isn't throwing well on the move, he isn't throwing well from the pocket, he isn't even really reading the R/O very well.  

 

There's nothing that they can hang their hat on and say, "He does this really well right now, let's do a lot of that."