Is Gruden an NFL Coach?

[Brokenstriker]

I don't know what is wrong with Robert, but he needs help from a gameplan to attempt to get it back.  But standing in the pocket getting smashed in less than 2 secs certainly isn't helping him.  I played ball, getting hit like that will make you play differently.  Call it what you want, fear, courage, insanity, but when you get up or wake up and everything's green your head swivels.

see this basic comment a lot and I'm frustrated by it.  What game plan works for Griffin?  Seriously ... Grffin doesn't want to run the read-option as demonstrated by his comments on that subject and his decisions when they do run read-option (he reads QB run and hands the ball off ... that's assuming he hasn't forgotten how to read the option).  Griffin is out-spoken about wanting to be a pocket passer ... he's being given that opportunity.  Yes ... the O line isn't outstanding in pocket protection but they don't collapse every time and Griffin isn't being successful when the time is there.  If the O-line isn't good enough and Griffin won't be a read-option QB ... what's Gruden supposed to do?  The O line is good enough often enough to expect much better.  Other QBs get hit and hit and still play well (Rogers, Big Ben) ... if getting hit is too much for Griffin I can understand that but what else is left?  Roll-outs (hit risk), bootlegs (hit risk), 3 step drop pass immediately ... requires the QB to do it.  Too much of this problem is Griffin to make it Gruden's fault.  Especially when you look at how 2 less gifted QBs managed to make the offense roll.

 

... and ... Part B ... do you need Griffin (an elite high priced "talent") for that game plan or is it a journeyman game plan that a journeyman QB can run?

 

So back to the beginning ... if you are going to say Griffin needs help in the form a better fitting game plan ... what game plan do you think is going to work?

[lovemaskins]

Gruden's offense with a QB who can execute it, take for example either of two journeyman QBs ... Kirk Cousins and Colt McCoy ... is an effective offensive machine.  Its the QB breakdowns that are killing it ... Cousins with his brain-dead interceptions and Griffin with his complete funk.  There's nothing wrong with Gruden's approach to offense.

 

Potential issues ... giving Griffin some of his own medicine in a post game presser, decision to keep Haz and riding broken QBs too long are all problematic and its concievable that there is some method to the madness.  At best all we have is conjecture.  My view ...

 

I'm not convinced .. and I've never been that Gruden really had a choice re Haz.  If he did I wish he would have sought out someone better ... but I also think Haz's Defense did enough to win at least 4 additional games this season ... that would make 3 - 8 look a lot like 7 - 4 (Texans, Vikings, Bucs, Niners).

 

so ... I don't think Gruden is a bad coach.  I think he like a lot of first year NFL coaches walked into a bad roster and a bad dynamic.  Typically ... these things take a year to clear out.  Good recent example ... Lovie Smith.  3-8 happens in the NFL to better teams than the one Gruden inherited.

 

Sounds good, but if you insert a QB in said system and it stops working then you have to adjust said system or remove QB.  I think you have to finish the season with Robert because of the investment and see what happens, but you can't do what we've been doing.  It's not working.  We have to do what he does best.  Whatever that is.  You have to try something different.   

 

And being last in penalties.  Really, inexcusable.  To me that says it all. 

 

Honestly, we're a complete joke of franchise.  I even have coworkers, passive football fans, commenting on how bad the offensive line was yesterday and feeling bad for how we're utilizing our QB. 

 

That's what hurts the most.  Average dude shaking his head, yet our front office and seemingly head coach are seemingly clueless.

[Brokenstriker]

The Skins didn't run a flea flicker yesterday, by the way. It was a double reverse pass. Flea Flicker is a play where the QB hands off the the RB, the RB runs up into the LOS then tosses it back to the QB.

of course the Redskins playbook terminology calls the "flea-flicker" the "leg-breaker"

[emor09]

the guy has proven he knows offense, all of it ... before he got to Washington.  The challenge thing is about the people watching the replays and telling him to challenge or not and the hurry up after a close call ... has that ever kept the refs from stopping the play?  Last night Eli tried that and the refs stopped it. 

 

Move along ... nothing to see here

 

Do you remember the Arizona game when Jordan Reed was ruled to have earned a 1st down and the Redskins let the play-clock run all the way to 1 and Arizona challenged? 31 teams in the NFL would have snapped the ball 15-20 seconds earlier.

 

Plays like that (whether the ruling was a 1st down, or a runner being down before a fumble, or a WR completing a catch) have happened at least 5 or 6 times this year. 

[Aireskoi]

Can someone tell me what RG3 does well, and how you build an offense around it?

[Brokenstriker]

Sounds good, but if you insert a QB in said system and it stops working then you have to adjust said system or remove QB.  I think you have to finish the season with Robert because of the investment and see what happens, but you can't do what we've been doing.  It's not working.  We have to do what he does best.  Whatever that is.  You have to try something different.   

 

And being last in penalties.  Really, inexcusable.  To me that says it all. 

 

Honestly, we're a complete joke of franchise.  I even have coworkers, passive football fans, commenting on how bad the offensive line was yesterday and feeling bad for how we're utilizing our QB. 

 

That's what hurts the most.  Average dude shaking his head, yet our front office and seemingly head coach are seemingly clueless.

I agree ... as long as Griffin is vertical this season play him ... I suppose there's an exception if its too pitiful and there doesn't appear to be any chance the Redskins can compete.  I figure this is it ... he earns the 2015 starters job with his performance this season or he's done.  If his audition (its not over people) is so bad its terrible ... its over before the last whistle this season.  If he gets benched this season ... its over.

Do you remember the Arizona game when Jordan Reed was ruled to have earned a 1st down and the Redskins let the play-clock run all the way to 1 and Arizona challenged? 31 teams in the NFL would have snapped the ball 15-20 seconds earlier.

 

Plays like that (whether the ruling was a 1st down, or a runner being down before a fumble, or a WR completing a catch) have happened at least 5 or 6 times this year. 

I agree ... rookie mistake.  I also remember Gibbs calling two timeouts in a row.  Not going to fry Gruden over it just yet ... also ... we don't know if he pressed for a quick snap and the QB didn't get it done ... but in any case ... on Gruden and it goes in the rookie HC bin.

[TheGreek1973]

Anyone that thinks the past three game loses had anything to do with play calling knows zero about football.  The coach and his staff is totally hand tied to call the game they want because RGIII in incapable of running a pro offense. 

[gortiz]

I agree ... as long as Griffin is vertical this season play him ... I suppose there's an exception if its too pitiful and there doesn't appear to be any chance the Redskins can compete. 

 

what have the last two games told you? Now we are talking offense ... not D. Has the offense/Griffin not been "too pitiful." and not given us a chance to compete?

 

Listen, I was in the camp of letting Robert play until he's gone, but I'm being tested here. 

[Brokenstriker]

Can someone tell me what RG3 does well, and how you build an offense around it?

he's a national class hurdler ... maybe he'd make a good WR

 

got a wicked strong arm ... imagine the double reverse WR pass with Griffin as the WR

[lovemaskins]

see this basic comment a lot and I'm frustrated by it.  What game plan works for Griffin?  Seriously ... Grffin doesn't want to run the read-option as demonstrated by his comments on that subject and his decisions when they do run read-option (he reads QB run and hands the ball off ... that's assuming he hasn't forgotten how to read the option).  Griffin is out-spoken about wanting to be a pocket passer ... he's being given that opportunity.  Yes ... the O line isn't outstanding in pocket protection but they don't collapse every time and Griffin isn't being successful when the time is there.  If the O-line isn't good enough and Griffin won't be a read-option QB ... what's Gruden supposed to do?  The O line is good enough often enough to expect much better.  Other QBs get hit and hit and still play well (Rogers, Big Ben) ... if getting hit is too much for Griffin I can understand that but what else is left?  Roll-outs (hit risk), bootlegs (hit risk), 3 step drop pass immediately ... requires the QB to do it.  Too much of this problem is Griffin to make it Gruden's fault.  Especially when you look at how 2 less gifted QBs managed to make the offense roll.

 

... and ... Part B ... do you need Griffin (an elite high priced "talent") for that game plan or is it a journeyman game plan that a journeyman QB can run?

 

So back to the beginning ... if you are going to say Griffin needs help in the form a better fitting game plan ... what game plan do you think is going to work?

I don't care how outspoken Griffin is about being whatever he thinks he should be.  Gruden is the coach. 

 

Robert:  I want to be a pocket passer, so I think we should call play "um de squat."

Gruden:  "Oh I'm sorry, I forgot you were there.  You may go now."  ~Doc Holliday

 

Tell Robert to shut up and run the damn play called.

 

As far as what game plan, I'd say more screens, more draws, more shotgun, chip with the backs, run pick plays, read option/play action until he sick of it.  

 

He can't read the 3 step drop stuff apparently, so try something else.  These coaches forget more offense than we know right??? I keep hearing that nonsense.  Let him prove it.   

[gortiz]

Can someone tell me what RG3 does well, and how you build an offense around it?

 

check this ... see bold. 

 

Meet Robert Griffin III, game manager.

 

This is the version of 2012's second-overall pick akin to what the Kansas City Chiefs have in 2005 first-overall pick Alex Smith. Nobody's ever going to confuse Smith and the Chiefs for "The Greatest Show on Turf." How could they? After all, Kansas City's passing game ranks 31st in football. Yet the Chiefs are 7-4 this season and 18-9 since 2013 behind a quarterback most would view as far from elite.

 

This is only possible because the Chiefs let Smith be a quarterback who complements, rather than hinders, their talented supporting cast. It's a supporting cast defined by a wicked pass rush and a dynamic running game.

 

If that sounds familiar, it should, after seeing the Washington D swarm on Colin Kaepernick and the 49ers offense, while Alfred Morris rushed for 125 yards against a rugged San Fran defense.

 

The Chiefs usually get similar production from a Jamaal Charles-led ground attack alongside a ferocious pressure defense. The difference is Kansas City's coaches add efficiency at the quarterback position by scheming plays perfectly suited to what Smith does best.

 

Usually that means quick-hit, short-range slant patterns that target receivers on the run and in space. It also means creative screens to again allow Smith to release the ball quickly, and also maximize Charles' talent as a receiver.

 

Throw in some read-option stuff to incorporate Smith's collegiate experience with that scheme, along with his natural mobility. Then add an occasional deep ball to surprise a defense and keep coverage honest.

 

There's a recipe for a competent offense that won't lose games and can even win a few. Build a strong defense and special teams around that, and you have a consistent playoff contender.

 

The Redskins could easily emulate this formula. There were even hints of it against the 49ers.

 

With Morris running effectively, Gruden was able to call concepts that suit Griffin's natural game. Those concepts included moving pockets and throws to target quick-breaking crossing patterns underneath, or short-range receivers in the flats.

 

It represented a baby step, but one that instantly made the offense better. The unit was better because its quarterback was actually making decisions and thinking about the defense, as Russell noted:

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2278319-redskins-at-a-crossroads-with-rg3-after-yet-another-lackluster-performance

 

 

[Brokenstriker]

what have the last two games told you? Now we are talking offense ... not D. Has the offense/Griffin not been "too pitiful." and not given us a chance to compete?

 

Listen, I was in the camp of letting Robert play until he's gone, but I'm being tested here. 

I think what we are seeing is how important it is to the Redskins that Griffin not be a bust.  If he is a bust then 2015 and 2016 and maybe 2017 are either stumbling forward with 2nd tier QBs (my preference under the circumstances) or mortgaging the future once again to try to get a top tier QB (bad idea in general and not realistic next year in any case).  Next time "uninjured" Griffin's ass hits the bench for another QB in 2014 its the end for him.  Also I think it means he can't be on the roster next season.  I don't think Griffin as the back-up, or Griffin back to QB school as the starter in waiting are viable.  That would be poison.  He sits now and he's got to go away before next season's camp.  I think they want to avoid that reality if they can.  I think that Colt is the best bet to win games this season and Cousins looks like he has a better upside then Griffin in the future (if the INT thing can be coached out of him he really made the offense run ... and he's young enough in terms of NFL games to think its possible ... I always use Troy Aiken as that measure ... who sucked his first season and threw a ton of INTs).

[endzone_dave]

It's hard to win games when you're first string QB can't find the open WRs, your second string QB is an interception machine, and your defense only plays well once every five games.  The main thing he did wrong was come here.

[Mad Mike]

This thread makes me want to delete my extremeskins account.

[Destino]

Who cares? He's just the first year coach between big splashy hires in Dan Snyder's formula the revenue streams flowing.

Marty - experienced established

Spurrier - first time NFL head coach

Gibbs - experienced

Zorn - new

Shanahan - experienced

Gruden - new

Once the wheels fall off with Gruden we'll all talk about fan cards and swear up and down that we've had it and he'll announce that he's hired Cowher or some other guy with a big time name. Most fans will get excited and believe that it will be different this time, and the wheel of Snyder's marketing machine will keep turning and producing truck loads of revenue.

It's not the coach that's the problem here.

[Burgold]

The one thing I wish Gruden would do more is use his bench.  He's benched a few, but I want to see the pups at guard line up.  How much worse could interior line play get?

[Brokenstriker]

 

check this ... see bold. 

 

 

 

franchise top pick QBs can't be just game managers ... that's why Alex Smith is a game manager for the Chiefs and not the Niners ... and its why Griffin can't be just a game manager for the Redskins.  McCoy can but not "RG3."

 

that said .. there's nothing stopping him from being one, and it would be an improvement ... except his ability to manage a game.

[lovemaskins]

Can someone tell me what RG3 does well, and how you build an offense around it?

The read option, Kyle Shanahan developed an offense that torched teams two years ago, and worked well last year with a gimpy Griffin, and the concepts are still being used by Cam Newton, Russell Wilson, Colin Kaepernick, and other QBs around the league.  I've even seen Peyton Manning run a few plays with it. 

 

Not saying we should go back to the pistol, but read option should certainly be a staple in our offense with Robert behind center and with this terrible O-line.  He should be in the shotgun almost 50% of the time. 

[gortiz]

  Next time "uninjured" Griffin's ass hits the bench for another QB in 2014 its the end for him.  

 So true, and so scary. 

 

In fact, I forget when it happened, but before he completed that 3rd down pass to Roberts, I said out loud, this could be his last play as a Redskins. I think we had punted 4 times prior to that, not completed a 3rd down.  I was sure ,that if he misfired, he would be benched and that would be, as they say, "all she wrote." 

[Brokenstriker]

It's hard to win games when you're first string QB can't find the open WRs, your second string QB is an interception machine, and your defense only plays well once every five games.  The main thing he did wrong was come here.

right ... right ... right ... wrong

 

if he hadn't come here he wouldn't have had Kyle Shanahan who created an offense he could star in ... instead of RoY in 2012 ... he would have been a failed experiment as a passer ... that's factoring in that where he was going to go as one of the top picks would be to a bad team ... without a GREAT offensive line and without the option to sit and learn from a veteran and the coaching staff until he was ready to play in NFL games.

I don't care how outspoken Griffin is about being whatever he thinks he should be.  Gruden is the coach. 

 

Robert:  I want to be a pocket passer, so I think we should call play "um de squat."

Gruden:  "Oh I'm sorry, I forgot you were there.  You may go now."  ~Doc Holliday

 

Tell Robert to shut up and run the damn play called.

 

As far as what game plan, I'd say more screens, more draws, more shotgun, chip with the backs, run pick plays, read option/play action until he sick of it.  

 

He can't read the 3 step drop stuff apparently, so try something else.  These coaches forget more offense than we know right??? I keep hearing that nonsense.  Let him prove it.   

more than a couple of times in the past 2 games ... he handed off to Morris when the read was QB run.  Its not just he doesn't want to ... its he won't.

[DC9]

But that exactly the point, it's his job "coach em up."  If you know the line is struggling then you gotta change something.  Max Protect!  2 man routes, simplify, hell one read and tell him to run, cause what we're doing sure as hell ain't working.

 

What's the saying "doing the same stuff expecting different results is insanity" or something like that.  And yeah, Robert's play is poor, but still we can't just keep banging our head against the wall. 

 

If you could simply "coach em up" then why did we trade 3 picks for one player?

 

Why not just take one in the 5th or 7th and "coach em up"?

[Boss_Hogg]

Gruden gets a pass because he's a rookie HC and he's working for dumb and dumber (Allen and Snyder). 

[andy614]

Can someone tell me what RG3 does well, and how you build an offense around it?

 

He's great at holding the ball a long time and throwing short passes at the feet of receivers.

[KDawg]

I don't think Jay wants Griffin as his QB. I think the front office (and no, I don't necessarily mean Snyder. He may or may not be involved) wants Griffin. Hence more issues. And if the team is aware of this divide, it becomes team changing. 

 

I'll also add this: Hindsight talking loud here, but man, it would have been nice to keep those extra two firsts and come away with Tannehill in the first round in the 2012 draft if Griffin doesn't turn this around.

[SkinsFTW]

I'm not sure if he's a good coach or not. I think he seems like the kind of guy, like Parcells, who is better off being head coach and hiring his own Belichick/Shanahan to coordinate their own offenses/defenses. So far the offense looks nothing near the level of sophisticated offense that Shanny or Al Saunders ran, and I'm not a Shanny fan as a HC and never wanted him.

 

For instance, as evidence i've acquired a copy of the playbook they gave RG3 for this past game vs the 49ers: