CHALK TALK - Power Running Scheme vs Zone Running Scheme: The Ballad of Why 46 Is REALLY Struggling

[Conn]

It's easy to say "stick with what works since Alfred is a better zone runner", it's easy to say Gruden should work with what he has...

But Morris has one more year on a contract we probably won't extend, him being a RB and all.

And the type of smaller, quicker ZBS OL we need for him to be the most efficient are deficient pass blockers.

Gruden wants to transition to a power blocking scheme because those type of road graders in the running game are also stronger and better able to anchor in the passing game. So in the long run, we don't want to stick with the ZBS. Why delay?

Alfred Morris and all the small, weak OL we have are going to be casualties of this switch, eventually.

[Pedro]

Pre Shanahan we had a power run OL of big guys (think Dockery at G) and could do it pretty effectively.  Currently we have a very light OL who cannot run power schemes consistently, hence why we struggle like mofos on short yardage runs/red zone punching it in situations.

 

Gruden is round hole square pegging right now.

 

 

 

 Why delay?

Alfred Morris and all the small, weak OL we have are going to be casualties of this switch, eventually.

 

They will be gone but we just spent future CAP money bringing in FAs, we need to win now or our FO have major egg on their face.  No running game doesn't help win now.

 

Added to that calling plays for a type of OL/RB you want instead of have is plain stupid, if it takes till next season to put that on the field call it next season.  If it takes till the end of this season call it at the end of this season.

 

Gruden is looking like a good upfront guy when talking to the press but a ****ing retard when it comes game planning/play calling.  I believe he's sacked himself from part of that, see if he continues to be true to production and tells himself to **** off if the rest of it continues lol.

[London Kev]

......................... So... in summary... the Power Blocking Scheme is awesome.  But you have to have the right RB for it.  It's also giving our o-line fits cause it takes TIME TO GET IT RIGHT.  But It also takes away Morris' vision and forces him to make quicker decisions and be more violent to the hole... which he is obviously not comfortable with. ...........................

 

 

..................  Gruden wants to transition to a power blocking scheme because those type of road graders in the running game are also stronger and better able to anchor in the passing game. So in the long run, we don't want to stick with the ZBS. Why delay?

Alfred Morris and all the small, weak OL we have are going to be casualties of this switch, eventually.

 

Thanks for the explanations guys.

 

We have to improve in pass pro and if that means a bigger, stronger O-Line and power running then I'm all for it. I really like Morris and hope that he can adapt to the new scheme, but if he can't then we need a change at RB.

[KDawg]

I classify schemes a bit differently than DC does. Take note, that doesn't mean he's wrong or I disagree, we just look at things slightly different.

 

To me, there's no such thing as a "power scheme". All schemes can be based on power. Joe Bugel's offensive lines ran some zone, and you can bet your happy asses he wanted to run the ball down your throat.

 

I classify schemes three ways: Zone, Man and Gap.

 

Zone, to simplify it big time, is the entire offensive line stepping to the play side.

 

Man is simply manning up on corresponding defensive player. A lot of man schemes use a numbering system. The center is 0, PSG is 1, PST is 2. BSG is 1, BST is 2. The defense is labeled with the same numbers (according to how your OL coach deems he wants to block it) and you block the corresponding man.

 

Gap is blocking down, or away from the play and usually involves moving a backside lineman to the front side via a pull. 

 

To me, an "Iso" is a man scheme. And "Power" is a gap scheme. Our "stretch" play is a zone scheme. Most teams will run a combination of the three schemes, but all will tend to feature one more than the other two. "Power" is a good compliment to a zone scheme, and it creates an extra gap to the playside due to the moving OL. 

 

Part of our issue with the OL currently is that it's built to zone block, but some pieces (Lauvao) are better suited for a gap or man scheme. Part of me wonders if Gruden is transitioning our offensive line away from the zone scheme entirely.

 

I agree that Morris man be struggling with the non zone stuff, but the biggest problem I've noticed, that would exist no matter the scheme, is our OL isn't getting a great push. Generally, a "Power" play will feature a double team at the point of attack. I haven't seen a whole lot of that. You HAVE to displace the defensive front and get the backers caught in the wash. They need to play beyond the LOS. The 'Skins OL tend to play behind the LOS at times. 

 

In summary, I agree with DC, but the larger problem isn't Morris... It's the line.

[DC9]

In summary, I agree with DC, but the larger problem isn't Morris... It's the line.

 

Thanks, Coach.  I was more or less trying to say that the scheme change is effecting the o-line which is effect making it difficult for Morris, but I also don't think Morris is going to do well with this type of running.  We know the o-line can block zone (at least some of them) but they are all learning something new.

 

Regardless, fat boys HAVE to get better and we HAVE to be patient with the development of them.

 

Part of me wonders if Gruden is transitioning our offensive line away from the zone scheme entirely.

 

 

The only OTHER thing I can think of is maybe Cousins does better at the vertical stuff cause I've noticed that as we've gotten to see more and more of him we've seen less and less boot.  Lots of PA and straight drop back passing with more vertical routes.

 

I guess we'll know for sure when Griffin comes back.  If we see more boot or a mix of them all he was probably just going with what made Cousins comfortable.

 

Then again I could be totally wrong, I'm just thinking of another reason that he may be going that direction.  But I think you're right, I think we're headed that way.

 

A heavy handed pulling guard would do wonders here.  Can't wait until Spence is healthy and ready to go.  Would love to see him get some reps later in the season.  Why not?

[longball]

why can't the scheme change?  it seems like that is an easier solution than scrapping Morris.

 

for that matter, why do we have to keep implementing schemes that don't fit our personnell???  the offense is allegedly a bad fit for the starting quarterback we traded the universe for, the 3-4 defense was a bad fit for our linebackers and linemen, and now our running scheme is a bad fit for our star running back??   wtf?

You're absolutely right here. The fact is Shanny masked many personnel insufficiency with his system. The zone read and zone blocking did a lot to hide the inability of this o-line. He knew what he could get away with, and now we are trying to change systems with the wrong oline personnel. At the pro level then end result is our current record. Our qb's will be killed, RG3 and a good back up in Cousins. Gruden needs to open his eyes. Change back to the previous system until you draft young o lineman for 2 years straight. until then the result will be the same. Almo is a great runner but he is running behind 6 round talent. In the NFL thats bad for any running back numbers. People that call out Almo lack any level of football knowledge. Good post by you!

[RhodeIsland Ave]

Awesome thread and nice breakdown. Not much that can be added to what has already been stated. Get a better OL, you will see an improvement in the run game. Demarco Murray didn't just go from an OK back to Hall of Fame great overnight. The majority of the credit should go to the OL.

[DC9]

Thanks for the thread. So, at the expense of sounding like a complete idiot, the ZBS that Morris excels at is basically when he's given the option to pick which of 3 holes he has a better chance of making it through/getting more yards etc?

 

 

This made me think of your questions, so hopefully it helps.

 

Some of the language is NSFW and obviously we aren't allowed to use a lot of these blocking techniques anymore... but you'll get the gist of what it looks like from a RBs perspective behind the line in the two different schemes:

 

Also notice how quickly the decisions need to be made and how the defense isn't moving.  And also note how our o-line doesn't look like this yet, lol.  So like I said, it's not all on Morris, but to say he isn't struggling wouldn't be entirely truthful.

 

Zone Blocking

 

 

Power Blocking

 

Awesome thread and nice breakdown. Not much that can be added to what has already been stated. Get a better OL, you will see an improvement in the run game. Demarco Murray didn't just go from an OK back to Hall of Fame great overnight. The majority of the credit should go to the OL.

 

He has a great o-line, yes, but Garrett never called running plays... at least not at a high clip.

 

That's what worried me about them getting all of these linemen the last couple of years and then getting a new play caller.

 

Oy!

[SweetAlfred]

Power running = more concussions?

[NoCalMike]

I always thought of Morris as not your typical ZBS running back because he lacks the CUT-&-GONE HR speed that backs like Terrell Davis, and Clinton Portis had.

 

Morris has made up for it in the past because he has really good vision and decision making on waiting for cut back lanes to develop and choosing the right ones, however, if you had a guy like Clinton Portis in there instead, a lot of Morris's 15-20 yard runs would be 40-60 yard runs because his burst of speed and acceleration was crazy good.  

 

Morris's production also had some to do with defenses having to worry about Robert keeping the ball himself, it had the defense on their heels and probably forced them to be in less of an "attack" mode on many downs.

 

Without that athleticism at the QB position, our O-line is feeling more of the pressure to do straight up blocking and they are failing a lot of the times, including the tight ends and of course our smallish WRs.

[SkinsFTW]

Pre Shanahan we had a power run OL of big guys (think Dockery at G) and could do it pretty effectively.  Currently we have a very light OL who cannot run power schemes consistently, hence why we struggle like mofos on short yardage runs/red zone punching it in situations.

 

Gruden is round hole square pegging right now.

 

 

No need to worry. We'll likely see them going 180 on at least one side of the ball in 2-3 years anyway because guys like Snyder and Allen "never make the same mistake twice" or at least not twice IN A ROW.

[MartinC]

This gets into the next chalk talk I want to do in a couple of weeks.  But the big reason is that the Gruden passing tree is different than Shannys.

 

Nit pick here - the passing tree we use under Gruden will be almost identical to the tree we used under Shanny. I have not broken it down but I bet a lot of the pass concepts are the same as well (both offenses are from a WCO root). Whats going to be different is the way reads and progressions are taught.

 

On the subject of the OP I watched the All 22 of the Titans game yesterday. We are still running a lot of zone - both inside and outside. There are some power concepts as well which is a change up from last year. My take away from watching this one game back is the issues with the running game are about personnel not scheme.

 

A lot of talk has been about the issues at RT and it looks like we are going to see Compton given an opportunity at that spot. Polumbus is actually decent in the running game his issues are in pass protection. In relation to the running game the biggest issue I saw on the film was at LG - Lauvoa is just not getting it done.

 

Take just the first series. First play is a stretch to the left. Lauvoa makes contact with his man as he steps to the left but loses balance and falls FOWARDS flat on his face. His man forces Morris to make an early cut and fight to make 1 yard.  Next run in the drive (after a 50 yard completion to Paul puts us in scoring position) is a stretch play to the right. Lauvoa gets beaten off the snap across his face (an absolute no no in a zone run away from you) his man meets Morris virtually at the hand off and its a 3 yard loss.

 

I could go on.

 

I don't care what scheme you run at some point your LG has to block their 3 technique or their 5 technique on runs to his side and at least get in the way on the backside on runs away. 

 

I know this is hardly a startling revelation but we need to get better and bigger up front. We are getting whipped at the line of scrimmage right now.

[Laron Burgundy]

I wouldn't say Morris isn't THAT guy just yet. He's learning just like the rest of the team is (**looks over at offensive line**) but he's not done himself any favors. He's got to be able to run both of these.

You see the difference in how Clinton Portis handled this change versus how Alfred Morris has handled this change. When CP came from the Broncos, who obviously ran the ZBS, and came down where Gibbs ran a Power scheme, he didn't always take the hole. But his athletic superiority allowed him to make some excellent plays.

It's the difference between a 2nd round RB and a 6th round RB unfortunately.

I have had the same musings about his ineffectiveness, in fact it was my #2 fear for the coaching change. Does this mean rb becomes a need this offseason? Does helu represent a possible solution? He seems like the better fit and it's hard for me to imagine him not getting more touches as the season continues.

[MartinC]

I have had the same musings about his ineffectiveness, in fact it was my #2 fear for the coaching change. Does this mean rb becomes a need this offseason? Does helu represent a possible solution? He seems like the better fit and it's hard for me to imagine him not getting more touches as the season continues.

 

Running back is not a need IMO - LG, RG and RT are. I'd like to use the rest of this season find out if we have any answers at those spots already on our roster.

[my_friend_goo]

I have had the same musings about his ineffectiveness, in fact it was my #2 fear for the coaching change. Does this mean rb becomes a need this offseason? Does helu represent a possible solution? He seems like the better fit and it's hard for me to imagine him not getting more touches as the season continues.

 

A pro football team is no different to a business - people come and go and it impacts your ultimate plans. Companies can waste a significant amount of money and resources going in one direction, only to change shortly after, so long as it's for an overall greater benefit.

 

Unsurprisingly, the greater benefit has to be Griffin. Maybe Morris will adapt, maybe the team will move on from him. Would be a shame if they did, many of us have grown fond of him, but I doubt he won't find a home somewhere and be successful.

[SWFLSkins]

why can't the scheme change?  it seems like that is an easier solution than scrapping Morris.

 

for that matter, why do we have to keep implementing schemes that don't fit our personnell???  the offense is allegedly a bad fit for the starting quarterback we traded the universe for, the 3-4 defense was a bad fit for our linebackers and linemen, and now our running scheme is a bad fit for our star running back??   wtf?

 

Thanks for nailing it. And this is something the Redskins keep doing overall. Change the scheme to not fit the personnel seems to be the mantra instead of the opposite. 

[Bishop Hammer]

Thanks for the informative post DC9! I've always wondered how power running and zone blocking differed. This thread definitely helps.

[SWFLSkins]

Tom Bowie ‏@tombowie  7m7 minutes ago

@Snide_Remarks with the terrible O-line Morris won’t be successful without the threat of RG3.

[Bigmuss1]

 

Tom Bowie ‏@tombowie  7m7 minutes ago

@Snide_Remarks with the terrible O-line Morris won’t be successful without the threat of RG3.

 

This is the true reason Alfred is struggling, sucks that it is that simple.  I know our Oline could be better, but RG and his threat open up so much for Alfred.  Enjoyed reading through the thread though!

[justice98]

I think the fumbling is in his head though too.  I think BMitch alluded to that.  You can't put the ball on the ground as much as Morris has and have it not mess with you on just about every carry.  From the jump, he's probably a beat slow on everything just because of that.

[SWFLSkins]

I think the fumbling is in his head though too.  I think BMitch alluded to that.  You can't put the ball on the ground as much as Morris has and have it not mess with you on just about every carry.  From the jump, he's probably a beat slow on everything just because of that.

 

What is this fumbling problem that keeps coming up? I don't see it compared to other backs with less yards even......

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=RUSHING&conference=null&season=2014&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=RUSHING_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb

[KDawg]

Running back is not a need IMO - LG, RG and RT are. I'd like to use the rest of this season find out if we have any answers at those spots already on our roster.

 

I don't think running back should ever really be a need for anyone. You can fall into a good running back. I'm very grateful that we haven't wasted a first or a second on a RB in the last decade or so (aside from the Portis trade, which actually big time helped our pass pro and run game, so in hindsight that was worth it). 

 

As we transition to more of a gap scheme, I'm hoping Morris transitions with it. I just love the way he carries himself, the way he runs with authority and his football intelligence. But there's a chance he doesn't. In which case we can pick up a replacement. Will he automatically be as good as Alfred Morris in the zone scheme? Probably not. Will be be adequate as long as we look at schematic fit? Yes.

 

We need to figure out the OL. Including Trent Williams' long term future. If he's willing to re-sign, get him locked up. Then look to remedy G and RT. 

[dballer]

Thanks for nailing it. And this is something the Redskins keep doing overall. Change the scheme to not fit the personnel seems to be the mantra instead of the opposite. 

 

It is much easier to fit players into a scheme than a scheme into players. This idea that it is bad to change schemes that don't fit players is a short term view. If you get a system in place that works, you can have more sustained success. You just have to turn over the roster the first year or two to get what you need. So yeh, it may be ugly to begin with. Unfortunately, we haven't found a coach that can make their scheme work yet, that is why we are doing it so often. We have a new coach that believes his scheme will be more successful in the long run. Most new coaches do not keep running the same schemes as the failed previous regime. We were able to run the ball last year but the offense still struggled, and we won 3 games. That is why the scheme is changing. Alfred Morris is not the kind of player you build a scheme around. He is the kind that if he doesn't fit the scheme you replace him. I am not saying we are there yet, but to say the new Head Coach should not put into place the system he wants to run just because the inherited RB isn't fit for it...Not the way to go about it in my opinion. This is his freebie year, his year to put into place the way he wants this team to play going forward. It takes time, but it is what happens when you have to make a coaching change because you sucked the year before. 

 

I personally didn't like the switch to 3-4, just because I like the 4-3 better, but if we had gotten the right personnel in quicker it wouldn't have been that bad.  I have always felt it is easier to find guys that fit into a 4-3 base easier than a 3-4. But plenty of great defenses have come from both bases so I don't really care. We just have to get the right players in. 

[justice98]

What is this fumbling problem that keeps coming up? I don't see it compared to other backs with less yards even......

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=RUSHING&conference=null&season=2014&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=RUSHING_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb

 

He's been saved by a lot of fumbles that weren't ruled as fumbles, but that ball squirts out almost once a game where everyone's scrambling for the ball hoping he was down.  Last year he led the league in fumbles lost.  

[KDawg]

Unfortunately, we haven't found a coach that can make their scheme work yet, that is why we are doing it so often.  in. 

 

I disagree here, actually. Shanahan's system worked just fine. We didn't put the players in place to make it sustainable long-term on the offensive line. 

 

But that system did mask a lot of deficiencies. The biggest problem with Shanahan In Washington was his poor hit rate in finding players, his inability to address the offensive line, and his hard headedness and his coaching personnel. That style may work in another environment. In fact, I'm willing to bet he could come back and find success, and a lot of it, again in this league.

 

Just not with this team, in this situation.

 

Gruden's system works. What's going to be the driver to if he works or not is personnel, coaching and players.

 

He's doing the smart thing by keeping his system in place along with elements of the Shanahan's system. He has players that fit the Shanahan scheme (although not well, because Shanahan didn't find great fits on the line). He can't run his system with the current personnel in place. But he can begin the transition.