CHALK TALK - Power Running Scheme vs Zone Running Scheme: The Ballad of Why 46 Is REALLY Struggling

[RandyHolt]

Good stuff Riggo/DC9

 

After our magical year in 2012, I feel like defenses solved Mike's zone stretch run game. I believe defenses no longer let our OL move unbridled, laterally. When our guard was pulling, they were getting pushed back now. 

 

I think in all of 2012, Morris was only hit behind the LOS like 6 times or some unreal number.  I believe in 2013, he got hit 6 times in game 1. And that with all our exact same personnel and coaches returning from the year before. Morris no longer was hitting the LOS at full speed, and I contend hasn't for 2 years. He breaks tackles and gets his 4, but it's not as easy.

 

And because of the aggressiveness on D, passing was difficult because the pocket would just vanish - shoot the As, shoot the A's. This was not just the fault of we know who.  It's almost like defenses played and run and pass the same vs us. Enter Cousins, things may change on that front.

 

But Shanahan could always run, it didn't matter who his back was. Nothing against Alfred, but he was born in that unstoppable system, and our system seems to be changing slowly to power. His touches, yards and YPC have gone down every year. No reason to panic, but we need a viable backup at the ready that works with the OL and Grudens play calls. We all are hoping Jones is that guy.  Thompson is the changeup.

[DC9]

Good stuff Riggo/DC9

 

After our magical year in 2012, I feel like defenses solved Mike's zone stretch run game. I believe defenses no longer let our OL move unbridled, laterally. When our guard was pulling, they were getting pushed back now.

 

Nah, I wouldn't say that at all.

 

In fact, the outside zone is still used by just about every team in the league.

 

The difference in the actual schemes (besides the blocking) is where on the field they try to set up the pass play to go.  With the ZBS and specifically the roll out,  it's designed to read levels of the field from deep to short.

 

 

This type of play action is supposed to open up more areas of the field (depending on where you want to attack).  Hence, why you don't roll your QB to one side after the PA and why the PA is up the middle instead of off to one side of the field -

 

 

 

 

So, this thread is not a damnation of the ZBS or the roll outs/boots/waggles... it's just to illustrate why Morris was struggling early on last year and to illustrate some of the differences in the goals of this type of running game vs the ZBS and it's benefits.

 

We'll use both (most good teams do) and both are effective when run properly. 

[RiggosMohawk]

The gamefilm may disprove this, but the lasting memory in my head is that in his 2nd and 3rd season RG3 never got a clean bootleg - he always had someone in his face. The backside contain never crashed down, and honestly why would you?

 

I'm hoping to see, with much more regularity, wide open spaces in front of KC from playaction with waggle/bootleg movement.

[RandyHolt]

Nah, I wouldn't say that at all.

....

Good stuff, a bit over my head.  I go by what I see, and that is our OL blown up while trying to run laterally.

 

But passing game aside, why do you think his YPC have dropped every year?

The gamefilm may disprove this, but the lasting memory in my head is that in his 2nd and 3rd season RG3 never got a clean bootleg - he always had someone in his face. The backside contain never crashed down, and honestly why would you?

 

I'm hoping to see, with much more regularity, wide open spaces in front of KC from playaction with waggle/bootleg movement.

 

One of my favorite plays is the waggle to the TE

[DC9]

The gamefilm may disprove this, but the lasting memory in my head is that in his 2nd and 3rd season RG3 never got a clean bootleg - he always had someone in his face. The backside contain never crashed down, and honestly why would you?

 

I'm hoping to see, with much more regularity, wide open spaces in front of KC from playaction with waggle/bootleg movement.

 

Alright... lets steer away from that in here please. 

Good stuff, a bit over my head.  I go by what I see, and that is our OL blown up while trying to run laterally.

 

But passing game aside, why do you think his YPC have dropped every year?

 

In short, you have to have success in basic parts of offenses before you can get to the next level stuff.  You can't build off of the any of that until you have a foundation.  Hopefully we'll get to see that this year since everyone has a year of the offense under their belt and our defense should give us more opportunites with the football.

[RiggosMohawk]

Alright... lets steer away from that in here please. 

 

Haha whatever you say Coach.

 

Unlike the typical stretch runs, do you typically use a lead blocker if you dont pull a lineman in this scheme?

 

Yet again this is where Reed's health seems of paramount importance to opening up our options. You can go 21 or 12 personnel groups, and in both cases still have him split out wide, with either DY or Carrier are still on the field as a lead block if needed.

[DC9]

Unlike the typical stretch runs, do you typically use a lead blocker if you dont pull a lineman in this scheme?

 

Yet again this is where Reed's health seems of paramount importance to opening up our options. You can go 21 or 12 personnel groups, and in both cases still have him split out wide, with either DY or Carrier are still on the field as a lead block if needed.

 

They don't require one.  In fact, Gruden has had to re-work a few of his plays to include DY because he didn't have a good FB in Cincy (or didn't use one that much, I should say).

 

Counter gap will always have a pulling linemen.  Iso blocking can also have a pulling linemen, but doesn't need a lead blocker.

 

Jordan Reed's imparative because he has the potential to dominate the middle of the field if he stays healthy.  That opens up the running game and the sideline passes to Garcon and Jackson.

[MartinC]

Thought I'd give this a bump now that we seem to be having some Alfred Morris vs Matt Jones discussions.

 

Look at where Alfred Morris has been successful this pre-season... his best runs have come running outside zone (stretch).

 

Matt Jones has run well in the counter-gap runs he's had.

 

Further, I think it's fair to say that Morris has struggled running counter-gap.  I know some of these struggles can be attributed to the offensive line working to gel and some of the competition has been pretty tough.  But I've seen enough to call it a pattern.

 

Any thoughts or observations?

 

I think we all know we have to run the ball well to take the pressure off the QB. Thing is every defensive co-ordinator in the league knows it as well. We are going to see a lot of 8 man boxes on 1st down and 2nd and running downs this season until/unless we show defenses we can hurt them passing the ball on those downs against the single high and man/cover 3 looks that will give us.

 

I'd put the relative strugles of the first string offense running the ball more down to that and the offensive line still being a work in progress than any schematic issue Morris has running in a power running game. I'd also say that ZBS will contimue to be a big part of the running game anyway.

 

Bottom line I think we will see a lot of 1 oe 2 yard runs on first down with the occasional big chunk run when Morris/Jones break one whatever the blocking scheme until we make teams respect our passing game. At that point we can lean on the run as I'm sure we want to.

[DC9]

I'd put the relative strugles of the first string offense running the ball more down to that and the offensive line still being a work in progress than any schematic issue Morris has running in a power running game. I'd also say that ZBS will contimue to be a big part of the running game anyway.

 

Yes and no on this.  Stretch plays he'll get you 3 yards plus most of the time.  Inside zone he's still pretty good because it allows him to press and make decisions.  Morris is an instinctive runner whose vision is OUTSTANDING.  But on precise runs, where it's "take this gap right here" he just isn't as successful for whatever reason.  It's been that case since I started paying attention to it regardless of the down.  Redd was better than him last year and Jones has been better this year.

 

One of these days I'm going to get that program where I can get screen grabs of plays.  I think my wife will leave me, though.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I'm just worried about Jones' running style. I've heard/read a few reporters say the coaches feel he runs too uptight and it can lead to fumbles/high hits.

So basically he's still developing, which should quell the Alfred Morris trade brigade that is popping up everywhere

[MartinC]

Yes and no on this.  Stretch plays he'll get you 3 yards plus most of the time.  Inside zone he's still pretty good because it allows him to press and make decisions.  Morris is an instinctive runner whose vision is OUTSTANDING.  But on precise runs, where it's "take this gap right here" he just isn't as successful for whatever reason.  It's been that case since I started paying attention to it regardless of the down.  Redd was better than him last year and Jones has been better this year.

 

One of these days I'm going to get that program where I can get screen grabs of plays.  I think my wife will leave me, though.

 

Even on power runs though the onus is on the running back to use his vision and instinct to find daylight. You dont want him dancing in the hole or, worse behind the line but its rarely a case of 'take this gap right here' because you just dont know exactly where the gap will be. Gut 50 - basic off tackle play. Hole might be outside the tackle or inside him depending on how the defense play it.

 

I think we will run a lot more zone than power anyway on 1s and 2nd down. Its on 3rd and short and goalline I'd like to see us use more power and for that Jones might well be the better back (he needs to lower his pad level though or he will not make it through the season).

[DC9]

Even on power runs though the onus is on the running back to use his vision and instinct to find daylight. You dont want him dancing in the hole or, worse behind the line but its rarely a case of 'take this gap right here' because you just dont know exactly where the gap will be. Gut 50 - basic off tackle play. Hole might be outside the tackle or inside him depending on how the defense play it.

 

I think we will run a lot more zone than power anyway on 1s and 2nd down. Its on 3rd and short and goalline I'd like to see us use more power and for that Jones might well be the better back (he needs to lower his pad level though or he will not make it through the season).

 

Right, but this goes back to the OP.  MOST RBs can be good at zone because it's slower developing and they also get to read where they want to go.  They can press, go outside, or cut it back generally.  I think Morris is in that elite category of RB for the ZBS (see his measurables - they're close to Terrell Davis and Arian Foster.  Medium-sized, low center of gravity, with a slower 40 time).

 

With power you normally get one hole and it's a different style of runner who excels at it.

 

This is why by the time Mike Shanahan got here, everyone figured out that just because they're good at one doesn't mean they're going to be good at the other.  He used to flip RBs for picks like a mad man.  Portis worked out pretty well for us, but he had to gain wait and take some coaching.  Plus he was an elite back to begin with.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Thought I'd give this a bump now that we seem to be having some Alfred Morris vs Matt Jones discussions.

 

.....

 

WOOT! Actual bona fide football discussion. 

 

Not quite a 'White Board', smiles (been throwing around doing a new one of those all summer but just haven't been in a football mode. Suggestion's on things not covered most welcome); but real meat and potatoes all the same. 

 

That's my bro'!  .

 

Hail. 

[DC9]

WOOT! Actual bona fide football discussion. 

 

Not quite a 'White Board', smiles (been throwing around doing a new one of those all summer but just haven't been in a football mode. Suggestion's on things not covered most welcome); but real meat and potatoes all the same. 

 

That's my bro'!  .

 

Hail. 

 

Well, there's a lot of different tweaks in the coaching staff and I've honestly not been able to identify a ton of consistencies in what stuff we might be running.  That could mean we're just running what the coaches think we're good at, but we could also be cloaking some stuff for Miami.  So it's been tough to have one of these on the current team so far.  They're going to come though.

 

I've got something for the defense I'm working on.  Stay tuned

[Bishop Hammer]

I gotta say I love these analytical threads discussing football theory.

Its like the difference between listening to music vs actually hearing with perfect pitch; being able to hear each note individually.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

I've got something for the defense I'm working on.  Stay tuned

Nice!  I was gonna bump a Barry 'scheme' thread yesterday, but it didn't really fit with some of the questions I had about our defense/personnel/tendencies so far through 3 preseason games.  Looking forward to seeing what you got.

 

I know this thread is more about our backs, but how do you think our young OL have looked based on counter-gap vs. iso vs. zone?  It seemed that a common train of thought was that Scherff/Moses/Long would fare better in a power scheme.  Does the tape show that to be true to this point? 

Bottom line I think we will see a lot of 1 oe 2 yard runs on first down with the occasional big chunk run when Morris/Jones break one whatever the blocking scheme until we make teams respect our passing game. At that point we can lean on the run as I'm sure we want to.

I agree with this.  Teams are gonna stack it upfront and make Cousins show that he can beat 'em deep.  At least we have some guys on the outside that will give us a chance to do just that.  One of those 'throw it to open up the run' kinda years probably.  I'm sure Jay won't have a problem trying to do that.

[DC9]

Nice!  I was gonna bump a Barry 'scheme' thread yesterday, but it didn't really fit with some of the questions I had about our defense/personnel/tendencies so far through 3 preseason games.  Looking forward to seeing what you got.

 

I know this thread is more about our backs, but how do you think our young OL have looked based on counter-gap vs. iso vs. zone?  It seemed that a common train of thought was that Scherff/Moses/Long would fare better in a power scheme.  Does the tape show that to be true to this point? 

 

I'll give you a quick read ahead... it's going to be about in-game adjustments.  I just need to see more first. 

 

And I'll need to see what the weakness is and how Barry compensates (spoiler alert, it's probably going to be the secondary).  But I'll get it out by week 3.

 

RE: Scherff/Moses/Long - it doesn't really show on tape yet because we aren't really running a ton of it.  We've been fairly vanilla with what we've run in the preseason.  Letting the guys focus on working on their technique vice working on winning the game.  Winning the game has just been happening.

 

We've got a good young group here.

[RiggosMohawk]

Maybe my most useful question of the day... you always hear about the extra defender. How do the two systems deal/neutralize/try to get that guy out of the way, or can't that be generalized?

[MartinC]

Maybe my most useful question of the day... you always hear about the extra defender. How do the two systems deal/neutralize/try to get that guy out of the way, or can't that be generalized?

That's not so much about the blocking scheme as about how your play design and system work to make the defense hesitate. You take the extra defender out by making him have to think and hesitate.

Take Denver. They have an immobile QB but want to be able to freeze the backside defender so he does not just crash on either the running back or attack the QB. So they need to have a threat to both sides of the formation on every play. The QB is not a threat to roll out of play action so they use a receiver (Wes Welker was used a lot) with a tight split on the backside of a run or run action - that receiver is a threat to get a bubble screen or something quick and he makes the defense have to respect Denvers ability to attack on both sides of the formation.

[TSO]

Thought I'd give this a bump now that we seem to be having some Alfred Morris vs Matt Jones discussions.

 

Look at where Alfred Morris has been successful this pre-season... his best runs have come running outside zone (stretch).

 

Matt Jones has run well in the counter-gap runs he's had.

 

Further, I think it's fair to say that Morris has struggled running counter-gap.  I know some of these struggles can be attributed to the offensive line working to gel and some of the competition has been pretty tough.  But I've seen enough to call it a pattern.

 

Any thoughts or observations?

 

Good bump. 

 

 What I'm seeing is he's too impatient on those counter-gap runs, as well as inside power in general. He's just getting the ball and running full steam ahead into the back of his Oline. 

 

Which is totally the opposite of what I'm used to seeing from him in the zone stretch. His strength is his patience behind the line and vision. He's hitting it too quickly and thus not seeing the hole, right. Granted, it's been small since he's been in as it seems like teams are purposely taking the run game away... but there's been more than a few times where he's just ran into the back of his guys and getting stuck instead of being a little more patient and finding the slot to "get skinny" through.   

 

He just needs to hesitate a few split-seconds more before crashing. See it develop. 

[Major Harris]

On the flip side, Steve Slaton was TOO fast and lacked the vision to run zone.

He sure had alot of success in a zbs in college. Iirc, fumbles and health were his issues.

[Koolblue13]

I love threads like this. Thanks DC9.

[RandyHolt]

Do backs commonly struggle changing their style to fit one blocking scheme to another?  The adjustment would seem to be subtle to me, but think it may not be quite that easy, otherwise backs would not be labeled best for one or the other. It can't be as hard as learning to become a pocket passer, right!
 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Alf is not the kind of back that has talent to succeed in any scheme. He is slow of foot and has very little waggle. He will never have another season like 2012...or 2013 for that matter, unless he lands back in a RO scheme with a dynamic running threat at QB. There's a reason the guy was 6th rounder outta Fla Atlantic.

[DC9]

http://realredskins.com/2015/09/12/need-to-know-five-bold-2015-redskins-predictions/

 

Alfred Morris will rush for 700 yards—I’m not completely convinced that Morris will be nearly as effective behind power blocking as he was behind the zone-blocking scheme. He will still start all 16 games but if he is spinning his wheels, Gruden will start to sub in Matt Jones and maybe even Chris Thompson earlier and more often. The team is going to rely too much on the running game to keep giving the ball to an ineffective runner.

 

 

 

Not really going to put much else in this thread... and I understand what Rich T is doing here (bold predictions), but this seems to be a growing assumption amongst those who cover the team.

 

I'd just like to point out that ES Chalk Talk was all over this.... like a year ago.