WP The Insider: Is Bruce Allen to blame for the Redskins' current mess?

[KDawg]

 

 

 

 

I guess we're both confused then. You are saying that Gibbs knew that Danny had no business building a team but was still fine with him being involved in the draft and free agency and it wasn't just because Snyder was his boss?

 

I don't think Gibbs thought that Snyder had no business building a team. I think he just trusted the people in place and wasn't going to look a gift horse in the mouth. Remember, he likes Dan Snyder quite a bit. 

[skinfan2k]

It is the best thing for this franchise to take a nose dive like this.  It will teach them never to do shortcuts and start to rebuild the right way

[pjfootballer]

Again, if the blame goes anywhere, it has to point to Scott Boonell.

[SkinsFTW]

It is hard to blame one person for this mess besides Dan Snyder. The only constant since he bought the team has been himself. We tried to blame Vinny, that didn't change anything, then, tried to blame Vinny (the 2nd time), that didn't change.

 

It's always going to come back to Snyder. He's impatient and wants to win now just like the rest of us fans but that isn't 100% of the problem. He also wants to be sure to sell 80K tickets to each game and all the other things an owner has to deal with to increase the cash flow and this team hasn't been #1- #2 in money for his entire ownership without reason. We've never won anything, but we've always been Top 2 in money and results like that tell you what the really important goals are.

[chipwhich]

It's always going to come back to Snyder. He's impatient and wants to win now just like the rest of us fans but that isn't 100% of the problem. He also wants to be sure to sell 80K tickets to each game and all the other things an owner has to deal with to increase the cash flow and this team hasn't been #1- #2 in money for his entire ownership without reason. We've never won anything, but we've always been Top 2 in money and results like that tell you what the really important goals are.

 

Well the truth is, but I can't prove it....

 

The supposed sell out streak is a sham.

 

Ticket sales are down.

 

I don't know what kind of revenue Dan gets from tickets, but he had to close off upper level sections, upper level season tickets are ALWAYS available, tickets are as cheap as ever on stub hub, they might claim a sell out, but I don't buy it.

[Mr. Sinister]

I just remember those words he spoke 5 years ago. " The status quo is no longer acceptable"

What a crock of horse****

[DarkLink]

Dan's record with this team is W - 105  L - 140....  We have lost 140 games with this man...I'm surprised we are all still alive from the heartaches.

[Thinking Skins]

Here's another link giving info on our scouting department.

http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/50072-getting-know-front-office-understanding-scouting.html

[TSO]

^^ Seems like with the additions of Doug Williams, AJ Smith and what seems like way too many administrative positions our process might be a little more discombobulated than what that link you provided had there (it details our scouting department and process as of 2012). 

 

I'm starting to think there's too many chefs in the kitchen and Allen isn't the right guy to create the general overall vision for everything. I still wish we had as many pro/area scouts as the Giants and Eagles if the numbers posted earlier are true... just because it'd seem like we care as much at the very least. I'd also like to see our GM having a better pedigree than Allen when it comes to personnel. Just don't get why he was simply handed the job.

 

Do other teams have as many executives, administrators, and assistants as we do with our 8 pro/area scouts? Wouldn't it be better to have more of those guys actually going to schools and interacting with players than it is to have a "personal executive, senior executive, player personnel assistant, administrative assistant, etc..."? What do those titles even mean, lol? What the heck is a personal executive? 

 

I'm honestly wondering, are we a bit bloated when it comes to office guys and understaffed when it comes to field agents in comparison to other teams? I'm trying to figure this out. Is there something wrong with our structure when it comes to the actual scouting department? Or is it normal?        

[Thinking Skins]

From what I've seen, we're about on par with guys when it comes to number of scouts. The eagles don't have their scouts listed in the media guide, but that last link I provided send to say that they generally have more shots. But Seattle and new York seem to have about 8 scouts or so.

I don't know about the number of front office positions, but it's kinda like somebody was saying in the owner thread, since there's no salary cap on that area, why limit ourselves to just a few. Somebody also recommended bringing in parcells to do a time similar to what he did in Miami. How do we know that's not what Smith is here for? That's my guess at least.

And it's hard to tell where the scouting dept ends and the player development department begins, but if think that Doug Williams serves a critical part in both those areas. He's good on the HBCU scouting because of his time as head coach at Grambling, but also good at player development because of the hurdles he faced as a player and how he's helped done of his own players through hard times.

[Thinking Skins]

So I'm looking at the scouts and I realize that a lot of the younger guys that we bring in - either through the draft, UDFA, or regular free agency - most of them don't have much NFL tape on them when they enter. Sure, a guy like Duke Ihenacho gets released after starting for about 2 years and you've got a lot of game tape on him, but for the most part when you're signing young guys you're depending on your college scouts.

With that being said, I wanted to try to look at out scouts (I listed them above (http://es.redskins.com/topic/383251-wp-the-insider-is-bruce-allen-to-blame-for-the-redskins-current-mess/page-9#entry9987710). Just a reminder, here are the regions that these guys cover (most teams divide the nation up this same way):

Tim Gribble - Midwest

Jim Zeches - West

Cole Spencer - Northeast

David Whittington - Southwest

Kyle Smith - Southeast

So what I did is took a look at our 2014 roster as of the date of this post, and said I wonder if I can determine who was the guy who said "hey Bruce/Mike/Scott, I think we should take a look at this guy"? Some of these guys (RG3) were national figures so this could be wrong, but I looked at some of the young guys on our roster and grouped them by their region and put the scout of that region next to them.

Silas Redd - USC - probably Jim Zeches

Greg Ducre - Washington - probably Jim Zeches

Jerry Rice Jr. - UNLV - probably Jim Zeches

Trent Murphy - Stanford - probably Jim Zeches

Duke Ihenacho - San Jose St - probably Jim Zeches

Bashaud Breeland - Clemson - probably Kyle Smith

Morgan Moses - Virginia - probably Kyle Smith

Courtney Bridget Jr - Hampton - probably Kyle Smith

David Amerson - North Carolina State - probably Kyle Smith

Robert Griffin - Baylor - probably Kyle Smith

Ryan Grant - Tulane - probably Kyle Smith

Chase Minnifield - Virginia - probably Kyle Smith

Jordan Reed - Florida - probably Kyle Smith

(This is a good region, but this is a nice crop of players)

Jackson Jeffcoat - Texas - probably David Wittington

Tress Way - Oklahoma - probably David Wittington

Keenan Robinson - Texas - probably David Wittington

Josh LeRibeus - SMU - probably David Wittington

Trent Robinson - Michigan St. - probably Tim Gribble

Spencer Long - Nebraska - probably Tim Gribble

Niles Paul - Nebraska - probably Tim Gribble

William Compton - Nebraska - probably Tim Gribble

Tom Compton - South Dakota - porbably Tim Gribble

I'd like to go back and see how much this correlates. I think it may be pretty easy for fans to be able to judge the scouts though. Maybe not a final grade, but its something to get an idea for who's bringing in the young talent and who's bringing up duds.

[Thinking Skins]

Washington Redskins Benefiting from SAP Scouting to Manage Team Roster and Performance - See more at: http://www.news-sap.com/washington-redskins-benefiting-from-sap-scouting-to-manage-team-roster-and-performance/#sthash.0pXaz6ac.dpuf

BOSTON — SAP AG today announced that the Washington Redskins football team started using the SAP Scouting solution during the 2013 NFL season to manage team roster and performance as well as to assess the current draft class. The announcement was made at the annual MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference, being held February 28 – March 1 in Boston. - See more at: http://www.news-sap.com/washington-redskins-benefiting-from-sap-scouting-to-manage-team-roster-and-performance/#sthash.0pXaz6ac.dpuf

and

SAP Scouting provides powerful search and analytics in a simple way so that all users — from executives to coaches to scouts — can personally assess and compare players to get new insights without dependence on complex spreadsheets or personnel bottlenecks. The solution enables all of a team’s college and professional scouting activities and generates key insights along the way.

- See more at: http://www.news-sap.com/washington-redskins-benefiting-from-sap-scouting-to-manage-team-roster-and-performance/#sthash.0pXaz6ac.dpuf

[TheLongshot]

BTW, a quote from John Keim's mail bag today, as part of a response to someone asking why the young OL players aren't playing.

 

When Mike Shanahan was hired, I had one general manager tell me he never emphasized building good lines. It surprised me, considering the success in Denver. But the GM was right.

 

An opinion, sure but seems to be backed up by what Shanahan did (or in this case didn't) do here.

 

There was another question as to why the personnel department hasn't been called to the carpet.  I tend to agree with it.

[Isifhan]

From what I've seen, we're about on par with guys when it comes to number of scouts. The eagles don't have their scouts listed in the media guide, but that last link I provided send to say that they generally have more shots. But Seattle and new York seem to have about 8 scouts or so.

I don't know about the number of front office positions, but it's kinda like somebody was saying in the owner thread, since there's no salary cap on that area, why limit ourselves to just a few. Somebody also recommended bringing in parcells to do a time similar to what he did in Miami. How do we know that's not what Smith is here for? That's my guess at least.

And it's hard to tell where the scouting dept ends and the player development department begins, but if think that Doug Williams serves a critical part in both those areas. He's good on the HBCU scouting because of his time as head coach at Grambling, but also good at player development because of the hurdles he faced as a player and how he's helped done of his own players through hard times.

The number of scouts are broken down on the teams (giants and eagles) websites under their team tab. They have, including asisstant scouts about double what the redskins have. Just talking what they list as executive and regional scouts and assistant scouts not director positions. We seem to be top heave on the executive side and lacking in the area scout and assistant scout side from what I could tell.

Here is the giants (posting from my phone so its a pain)

Joe CollinsExecutive Scout

Jeremiah DavisExecutive Scout

Steve VerderosaExecutive Scout

Steve DevineScout

Donnie EtheridgeScout

Ryan JonesScout

Steve MalinScout

Chris PettitScout

Jeremy BreitScout

Chris WattsBLESTO Scout

Matt ShaugerAssistant Director of Pro Personnel

Patrick HanscombPro Scout

Tim McDonnellPro Scout

Andrea WagnerAssistant, Pro Personnel

[Thinking Skins]

The Skins also have assistant scouts. We just promoted two to area or pro scouts. I just don't think we list them in our media guide.

I really think people are over reacting to this Allen gn thing, trying to find ways to claim that he and Vinny are the same, but I just don't see it. Whether we have 5 scouts or 20 scouts, Allen has shown since 2011 that he's focused on building through the draft and having more than 7 picks per year. That's what I've asked for from Snyder since he bought the team. No every pick won't be an all star, but in the draft we're more likely to find the ask star that we can keep cheap, as well as quality backups.

Our team right now is primarily built through the draft abd udfa (I think we have 28 draft picks and udfas in it roster right now). As these guys earn playing time and win jobs it helps our team.

[HogNose]

How can Bruce Allen be blamed for the state of the Redskins?

 

 The cancer had spread throughout the culture of this team long before Allen walked in.  The behavior of the front office has to change and that starts with the owner.  The organizational structure must change.  It all trickles down. 

 

It's the culture of team that is the problem!  It's been this way since the first time Norv chewed on a pencil. 

[Isifhan]

The Skins also have assistant scouts. We just promoted two to area or pro scouts. I just don't think we list them in our media guide.

I really think people are over reacting to this Allen gn thing, trying to find ways to claim that he and Vinny are the same, but I just don't see it. Whether we have 5 scouts or 20 scouts, Allen has shown since 2011 that he's focused on building through the draft and having more than 7 picks per year. That's what I've asked for from Snyder since he bought the team. No every pick won't be an all star, but in the draft we're more likely to find the ask star that we can keep cheap, as well as quality backups.

Our team right now is primarily built through the draft abd udfa (I think we have 28 draft picks and udfas in it roster right now). As these guys earn playing time and win jobs it helps our team.

Anyone who says Allen and Vinny are the same is silly.  However, that doesn't mean we devote enough resources to the department. Build as big and strong of a scouting department as possible until you start overlapping duties and becoming redundant. As been said many times, no cap on your front office / scouting so why not invest. 

 

*Edit - Obviously the idea is not to be a bloated scouting department, if the scouts aren't quality scouts and the players that we scout end up being awful then it won't work. The number of scouts probably matters less than the quality.  But if we are strapped in quantity then the quality will undoubtedly suffer as a result. 

[skinzplay]

Moving forward, if no real GM is hired, then yes, he can and should be held accountable. He knows (and the league knows) his limitations. Perhaps the person he really wanted to hire wasn't available? Or maybe he really thinks the current organizational structure is fine, which it is not. If his name were Bruce Abbott, he wouldn't even have a job in Washington.

[Thinking Skins]

Anyone who says Allen and Vinny are the same is silly.  However, that doesn't mean we devote enough resources to the department. Build as big and strong of a scouting department as possible until you start overlapping duties and becoming redundant. As been said many times, no cap on your front office / scouting so why not invest.

I think that's easier said than done. Sometimes hiring more people just leads to a bigger argument. I'm actually curious about the Skins usage of big data analytics and trending and predictie analytics for both the draft and free agency. Just like people talk about RG3 and the hits he takes, with a lot of players you can say that since their primary region is, say catches over the middle, you should expect them to be injured more than a guy who's running mostly screens and/or deep routes. But a player who runs mostly deep routes will generally have to miss that next play cause of simply being winded. Most teams have adopted this type of thinking with respect to running backs as they look for a young between the tackles runner, realizing that on average they outperform guys who are mostly an outside runner, but they get injured at a higher rate and don't last past 30.

The first step was getting our scouting department to the level of other NFL teams and I think Allen has done that. The next question becomes how can we invest in things, whether it be more scouts to go to more games, more technology to help analyze and understand these trends, more executives to help process the information scouts provide, etc. to help us get a leg up on the competition across the league.

I think one of the major problems with this team has been

(1) the lack of a willingness to invest the time to draft and develop players.

(2) the lack of looking through the talent pool of UDFAs to find gems, and instead turning to mid-tier free agents from other teams, hoping they'll come in here and do better.

(3) The constant regime changes, not only with a new head coach but going from a Norv to a Marty to a Spurrier to a Gibbs II/Gibbs to a Gibbs II/Saunders to a Zorn/Zorn to a Zorn/Sherman to a Mike to a Gruden. And then we have the same things on defense with the different coordinators each changing the defensive philosophy, with the most consistency being between Williams to Blatche and Haslett these past 5 years. These regime changes lead to a constant roster overhaul.

(4) the over-spending on free agents. We've all talked about this, but with the spending on free agents under Vinny, we were unable to have much depth. One thing I'll say about this team is that we've had a lot of injuries (as most teams do) but I've been impressed with our depth. We lost our #1 corner and our #2 for the most of that last game and Breeland still had a decent game and should have had a pic except for a bad call by the refs.

I can probably list more, but I feel like Allen has done an adequate to good job addressing these areas. We are definitely not the big spenders in free agency, but you see that the two guys we got on day 1 of free agecny - Lauvao and Roberts are having meh seasons. I wonder who put in these calls because I'm not liking them. I was definitely in the corner of signing Jackson though and I'm happy that he's having a good season. But what I've been more impressed by is the way Allen has traded down in the draft every year and the number of young UDFAs we have on our roster right now: Way, Redd, Jeffcoat, Ducre, W. Compton, T. Robinson, C. Minnifield, K. Forbath, D. Young, L. Paulsen, C. Baker.

And a number of these guys like Baker, Young, Paulsen, Minnifield, Compton have been here for a while and we're actually developing players here. So while we haven't hit with the draft (no team bats 1.000), we are bringing in A LOT of UDFAs throughout the season to come in and compete for these reserve spots. Vinny would panic and trade a high draft pick at the Hall injury. Gibbs would sign "core players" who had no upside and were old, but wouldn't upset the locker room.

Now we've got guys who had legitimate pre-draft grades.

T. Robinson was throught to be a 3rd rounder

Ducre was thought to be a 4th rounder.

Minnifled was thought to be a 4th rounder.

Jeffcoat was thought to be a 5th rounder.

So while we haven't necessarily hit in the draft we have been bringing in guys who slipped through the draft into UDFA and hopefully it helps turn our team around.

[Isifhan]

I think that's easier said than done. Sometimes hiring more people just leads to a bigger argument. I'm actually curious about the Skins usage of big data analytics and trending and predictie analytics for both the draft and free agency.

 

I'm sure we use analytics on some level, but I doubt we have a department or more than one individual dedicated to it.  Let's step outside of Scouting for a second.  Take a look at the Eagles FO structure for their training department.  Here is the Redskins again going off team website:

 

Larry Hess - Head Athletic Trainer

Elliot Jermyn - Asst. Athletic Trainer

Kyle Blackman - Asst. Athletic Trainer

Ray Wright - Head Strength & Conditioning

Chad Englehardt - Asst. Strength & Conditioning

 

Here are the Eagles

 

Chris Peduzzi Head Athletic Trainer Josh Hingst Head Strength Coach Shaun Huls Sports Science Coordinator Quadrian Banks Assistant Strength Coach Keith Gray Assistant Strength Coach Mark Lewis Assistant Athletic Trainer Joseph O'Pella Assistant Athletic Trainer Monte Wong Assistant Athletic Trainer Anthony Zimmer Sports Science Analyst

 

Again we're outmanned in an extremely important area of the team.  They even have a sports science analyst.  They may be one of the only teams in the NFL that has one, but if you aren't keeping up you are falling behind for sure.  And this is a team inside the division.

 

 

 

 

The first step was getting our scouting department to the level of other NFL teams and I think Allen has done that.

 

Can you expand on that because I just don't see it aside from investing in BLESTO which apparently we didn't do prior to Shanahan and it was a Shanahan decision to subscribe to the service. The rest of the post I pretty much agree with.  I hope the UDFA's eventually help out, but I'm not convinced that we have the coaching staff to develop those talents aside from a few here and there to be honest.

[WhodatSkinsFan?]

Not sure how much of this mes is on Allen.  Shananangin's was Mr Everything.    Seems like Bruce has JUST taken over the team... I think we have to give him at a minimum, 2 more yrs.  We can't keep starting over.. and over... and over.

[Conn]

Not sure how much of this mes is on Allen.  Shananangin's was Mr Everything.    Seems like Bruce has JUST taken over the team... I think we have to give him at a minimum, 2 more yrs.  We can't keep starting over.. and over... and over.

No. Keep Gruden and the offensive coaching staff. Can Haslett and the entire defensive coaching staff, as well as the ST's crew.

And get rid of Allen NOW. Or promote him to a president/face of the organization role. We have an entire career's worth of evidence that he is not a personnel man. Bring in someone who can evaluate talent and build a team culture and vision.

[Laron Burgundy]

Not sure how much of this mes is on Allen. Shananangin's was Mr Everything. Seems like Bruce has JUST taken over the team... I think we have to give him at a minimum, 2 more yrs. We can't keep starting over.. and over... and over.

2 more years?! That's wasting so much of rg3's career.

[Master Blaster]

Watching the KC/SD game and was surprised by what I saw.  Look who's started every game for the Chiefs at Guard this year:


http://www.kcchiefs.com/team/roster/Mike-McGlynn/6eefbe62-0b03-4839-9dfe-f4af70b48a35


Yup, guys that can't make our 2-deep on the OL start for other teams.  We must have  a dominant OL or something.

[SkinsFTW]

No. Keep Gruden and the offensive coaching staff. Can Haslett and the entire defensive coaching staff, as well as the ST's crew.

And get rid of Allen NOW. Or promote him to a president/face of the organization role. We have an entire career's worth of evidence that he is not a personnel man. Bring in someone who can evaluate talent and build a team culture and vision.

 

And here I was, thinking you used to be Mr. Think Positive around here a few years ago