Thoughts on Cousins and the next few weeks

[RedskinsInFebruary]

I think Gruden was in a good mood and laughing because he got his first win as a HC and it was complete domination for his first home game.  Add to that his backup QB played great and he believes he can win with him.   

I think he laughed at the reporter who already tried to stir up the media-drama premature controversy.  I was really impressed with Gruden stating we'd cross that bridge when we come to it.

[dsciambi]

Yeah I can see that. They were both pretty bad. You would assume Cousins (if he really is high quality starter) would look better than RG3 though since he clearly hadn't overcome his injury, whether it was physical or mental.

 

Of course Cousins was playing in meaningless games too, so you he has that in his defense.

 

Here's that expectation sneaking in again. Why are some of you expecting Cousins to come in and play like an all-star off the bench? Even last year, people keep saying he stunk in his 3 games. Guess what? He's still started less than a third of a football season! Of course he's going to look awful at times.

 

I can already tell that if Cousins has a bad game this week, people will be coming out saying they knew all along he was going to suck. Not at all remembering that this is his first week this season taking first team snaps. Nor that he hasn't been the starting quarterback in well over a year, and that was only for a few short weeks. It's also ignoring that 2 weeks ago most people already wrote the Eagles game off as a likely loss.

 

But Cousins had better be in there throwing for 300+ yards, 3 TD's, and no turnovers, otherwise he's a bust! Oh, and he probably needs to rush for one too, just because RG3 would have likely been able to that.

[RiverboatGambler]

So what are you saying? What metric can we measure him by? Do the results only matter if they are positive? Every move of Robert is/was and will be critiqued so why are you implying that we should lower the standard due to reason X, Y
 or Z? Personally I think we are going to trash the Eagles and the Giants but it doesn't mean much in the grand scheme. The coaches know what they are doing and I trust them....

[TSO]

Cousins doing the pump fake and looking off the safeties was a breath of fresh air.  I havent seen Griffin do a pump fake in a long time it feels like.

 

To be fair, Griffin actually was doing it this year so far. I think it's an emphasis of Gruden's. In fact, on the deep ball to Desean he did it. I noticed this a few times and I can't remember if it was during preseason or the Texans game, but Robert was certainly doing it and it was more than once or twice.

 

Now, this might be nuts to say and I don't think one is particularly better than the other at it, lol, but Cousins was actually faster at it. Griffin kind of goes through a full throwing motion when he pump fakes whereas Cousins does more of the shoulder thing a la Tony Romo. I think Griffin's way really holds the Safety even more, but it takes more time for him to come out of it. Different styles. 

 

I have no idea why I noticed that, lol. 

[Taylor703]

Here's that expectation sneaking in again. Why are some of you expecting Cousins to come in and play like an all-star off the bench? Even last year, people keep saying he stunk in his 3 games. Guess what? He's still started less than a third of a football season! Of course he's going to look awful at times.

 

I can already tell that if Cousins has a bad game this week, people will be coming out saying they knew all along he was going to suck. Not at all remembering that this is his first week this season taking first team snaps. Nor that he hasn't been the starting quarterback in well over a year, and that was only for a few short weeks. It's also ignoring that 2 weeks ago most people already wrote the Eagles game off as a likely loss.

 

But Cousins had better be in there throwing for 300+ yards, 3 TD's, and no turnovers, otherwise he's a bust! Oh, and he probably needs to rush for one too, just because RG3 would have likely been able to that.

You know why you're posting this, because this is what you guys did to Griffin in the game day threads non-stop. The truth is all of us "supposed" fanboys are going to cheer for Kirk the same way we cheered for Robert. They're both Redskins and I want them both to succeed. If Cousins does something stupid he'll be called out for it but you better believe he's going to get praise from all of us when he plays well. Maybe now you'll realize cluttering up game day threads with over-the-top bashing of the teams starting QB gets annoying as hell really quick.

[Brokenstriker]

we can win with both

damn straight!

[Taco Bell]

I'm still confused by the cannibalization of us "fans" on this RG3 vs. Cousins topic.

 

I mean, I'm not, it will stabilize itself out, but we just don't have much else to talk about lol.

 

Jason Hatcher is.... awesome?

Ryan Clark is.... the hard hitting man?

I hate.... the Eagles?

 

Ok back to RG3 and Cousins.

 

Just as a baseline, lets say that RG3 is gone until the Bye.  7 games.

 

If cousins has us 6-3 at the bye or better, I think he stays the starter, unless he was dreadful and we were winning in spite of him.  That would entail that our team is somehow stacked since that would mean the D, special teams, and running game were stellar.  So, he could average 2 TDs,  <1 INT, and 250-275 a game and retain the job if he has us 6-3 or better.  Doesn't sound like much but averaging 2 TDs a game as a QB is pretty decent all things considering.  It also doesn't include additional scoring drives of course. 

 

Anything less in both performance and/or record obviously makes Griffin the no brainer starter again.  

 

The only way Cousins stays starter with a record of 5-4 or less is if he plays like a top 10 QB, which would be 2-3 TDs a game, 275-300 a game, and still 1 or fewer turnovers per.

 

So, Griffin most likely will come back and have his ability to take this job by the horns.

 

I really think Griffin's injury this time was a blessing in disguise because despite having to rehab from another injury, this will actually put to bed the Cousins dilemma once and for all from his perspective, because either Cousins will forever be relegated to backup in a Redskins uniform if he "proves" he isn't good enough with more than enough time to audition, or the opposite, but at least it would hasten this 4/5 year soap opera of having both these guys on the roster.  So, RG3 will actually know his fate sooner than he would have otherwise in a strange twist of fate.

[Brokenstriker]

I get the blessing idea ... but I think its more of a here we go again thing.  Cousins is OK or he is bad, Griffin returns or he doesn't ... best case ... Cousins is OK and Griffin is OK or better and FRAGILE (just counting the games played while under contract ... not saying anything else).  Neither presents a foundational building block at QB.  Not necessarily a bad thing but we all know the org will have to find the foundational QB of the future or perhaps the soon to arrive 'now.'  Sucks the life out of the potential draft solutions for needy positions like RT, RG, S.  Adds the potential risk of the front office mortgaging the future's future for a snatch and grab of draft picks and FAs.

 

Delusional best case ... Cousins is pretty damn good.  I don't think we see a Griffin delusional best case any better than he returns and doesn't suck.  Bad knee, bad ankle.  If you want to go all 'he doesn't protect himself' on top of that ... that's up to you.  Best case for Griffin is Doug Williams Part Deux ... all cannon no dash.

[SpacePenguin]

Ugh...this has been disproven SOOO MANY times already....whatever people believe whatever they're gonna believe regardless of you know the truth.

First off, I love how you can actually claim to be objective here. Amazing.

Secondly, nothing was "disproven". The stats that were posted ad-nauseum were broken down into Griffin's 2013 first half stats against his second half stats, when any objective fan can easily recall he(and the rest of the team) played so horribly that the team was getting blown out by the 2nd quarter.

Even if it WAS broken down into quarters, stats are open to interpretation, and are therefore not facts, but opinions. If you want to treat them as facts, then how about 16 Tds, 12 Ints, and 11 fumbles(4 lost). Pathetic for 13 games.

Now, of course, people will have a slew of excuses(perfectly valid ones, I might add) for that...which only proves my point that stats mean nothing without context! You can't have it both ways.

For the record, I don't think Griffin was horrible at all against the Texans or the Jags this year. He's played well so far this year. Kirk played much better than him in 2013 imo, although it was a really really low bar to do so. That's objectivity.

I'm fine with either QB, I just don't want to ever see a QB performance like Griffin's from 2013 again.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

There is a large chunk of the fan base that thinks Griffin is infallible and another large chunk that thinks he can do absolutely no right. Sigh... But I guess that's why the staymediumskins.com message board never took off.

[UK Skins]

 

RG3 deep ball king: 8/39, 21%, 394 yards, 10 ypa, 7 TD, 1 INT

Cousins wet noodle: 2/5, 40%, 116 yards, 23 ypa, 1 TD, 0 INT

 

To the poster who genuinely thinks there hasn't been any Cousins bashing in this thread you only have to back one page for a perfect example. Like many of the "Griffin is God" fans you must live in a bubble.

 

If Cousins is so bad against the Eagles that we pull him and put McCoy in then I'm going to cheer for McCoy. The "Griffin is God" fans are going to be wetting themselves with glee though.

[Bubble Screen]

The statements must first be ACCURATE.

Opinion is one thing, people can have whatever opinion they want.

But just because you express your opinion doesn't mean your opinion is supported by FACTs.

Griffin played terrible last year therefore blah, blah, blah is invalid on its face because Griffin was not terrible last year.

Imho when you make statement that is incorrect as basis for your criticism that's bashing.

Griffin was terrible last year.

[MustangSteve]

You know why you're posting this, because this is what you guys did to Griffin in the game day threads non-stop. The truth is all of us "supposed" fanboys are going to cheer for Kirk the same way we cheered for Robert. They're both Redskins and I want them both to succeed. If Cousins does something stupid he'll be called out for it but you better believe he's going to get praise from all of us when he plays well. Maybe now you'll realize cluttering up game day threads with over-the-top bashing of the teams starting QB gets annoying as hell really quick.

Lets just win!!! I don't give a damn if Colt comes in and starts lighting up a defense, just get that win bless it!!! 

[Skins3000]

i think best case is that Cousins plays really well, RG3 comes back and plays like he looked to open the Jags game and gets us to playoffs, and we trade Cousins for a high second round pick next off season.

Any smart organization would have already traded Cousins to eliminate all this drama this team has now. I look at Green Bay with Rodgers and Favre, Seattle with Flynn and Wilson, San Francisco with Smith and Capricorn and the list goes on and on when a team put stock in a quarterback you give that quarterback your 100% attention especially when the qb is young. Tannenhill out of that 2012 class in the first round has done nothing compared to Luck and RG3 while the other two have at least taken their teams to the playoffs. Tannenhill has been given the benefit of the doubt and at least time to grow as a quarterback. The Skins fans on the other hand is buying into this media foolishness of a qb controversy. This is driving me insane. I need Kirk to hold the reigns down and win games but stop with the Tom Brady comparison of Kirk lighting it up and RG3 being traded. 

[Dub70s]

I hope this last the whole season, Skins fans are good for a laugh.

 

Wait, didn't this happen when Colt McCoy was a Redskin?

[mojo]

A smart organization would have traded a talented back up QB when your starter cant even run out of bounds without his foot almost falling off. Yea, that would be a brilliant move.

[Burgold]

In the best ole days, Gibbs I, Joe used to hold his back up QBs on the bench for three years.  When they emerged from the cocoon they were ready to go.  There was no talk of training wheels because he didn't get enough practice reps.  If you were on the field you needed to be ready and good.  When we saw Schroeder step in for Joey T or when Rypien was finally handed the reins they were good. 

 

Cousins is now in his third year and has gone through three training camps and has had more than enough reps.  He's had a Gibbs like incubation period.  Time to play and not make excuses beforehand.  Yes, game reps are different and they count, but he's been a pro long enough to be good.  Same for Griffin actually.  They are third year pros.  It's time to step up.

 

I believe he can and will, but I plan to judge him as a QB and not as a rookie or student.

[Skinsinparadise]

To the poster who genuinely thinks there hasn't been any Cousins bashing in this thread you only have to back one page for a perfect example. Like many of the "Griffin is God" fans you must live in a bubble.

 

If Cousins is so bad against the Eagles that we pull him and put McCoy in then I'm going to cheer for McCoy. The "Griffin is God" fans are going to be wetting themselves with glee though.

 

I was going through these recent pages which a chunk of it is an RG3 bashfest, was curious when you said go back a page and you'll see Cousins likewise bashed.   So I did it.  In what post was Cousins bashed?  Was it mine where I gave Greg Cosell's evaluation of Cousins predraft?   Hard for me to find anything else.  And all that post is -- is Cosell's evaluation both positive and negative.  I am gathering based on some posts there is some sensitivity when some say like Cosell expressed that Cousin's doesn't have a rocket arm?   Don't get why though.  Peyton doesn't have a rocket arm.  Cousins himself joked about it himself as to not having a gun the other day, and he compared his skill set to Dalton.  Cooley in his film study talked about Cousins putting too much air/touch under the deep balls, just like Cosell did.  But Cousins like Dalton has other attributes. 

 

Earlier on, someone posted that Cousins and RG3 are equally bashed on this thread and accused DG of engaging in the Cousins bashing.  DG responded that its silly, the bashing is very directed on this thread at RG3.  DG IMO is right.  Even if you can find some rare outlier somewhere deep on this thread bashing Cousins, I would say at worse the bashing is 95% directed at RG3, 5% at Cousins.

It's too bad.  

 

As I said earlier in this thread, IMO what Cousins did or didn't do in the past at this point isn't so relevant anymore.  Who is better Cousins or RG3 isn't so relevant anymore either.  Why harp on either point -- unless the theory is the movie has played out on both RG3 and Cousins.  In my view, that movie hasn't played out, far from it.  The movie is about to be played on Cousins.  In my view we have no idea one way or another based on past play that Cousins is the future, we've seen some good, we've seen some bad.   He will have his chance now.  Lets worry about who is the better QB AFTER not before Cousins plays a string of games.  

 

Or at least can the pro Cousins stuff work without bashing RG3?  Psychology 101 -- if the pro Cousins posts need to include a swipe at RG3, shows some insecurity about that point, meaning deep down that person isn't really sure.   It's kind of like when you start dating someone and you feel the need to take a swipe at the girls ex-boyfriend -- you do it because you are worried about the ex-boyfriend.   The opposite of love isn't hate but indifference.  IMO if whomever is so confident about Cousins, I'd leave out the RG3 hit -- it makes the Cousins point stronger.  Just my 2 cents.  

[Skins3000]

A smart organization would have traded a talented back up QB when your starter cant even run out of bounds without his foot almost falling off. Yea, that would be a brilliant move.

A talented quarterback? Really. How about an unproven quarterback that is surrounded by more hype than substance. I am hoping Jay will not be as foolish as his brother that ran through more quarterbacks than I can mention before being fired. There are many veteran backup qbs that could play as well as Cousins or if not better. I will support Cousins through this stretch but I will definitely not be naive as so many has been.

[wrecker]

In the best ole days, Gibbs I, Joe used to hold his back up QBs on the bench for three years.  When they emerged from the cocoon they were ready to go.  There was no talk of training wheels because he didn't get enough practice reps.  If you were on the field you needed to be ready and good.  When we saw Schroeder step in for Joey T or when Rypien was finally handed the reins they were good. 

 

Cousins is now in his third year and has gone through three training camps and has had more than enough reps.  He's had a Gibbs like incubation period.  Time to play and not make excuses beforehand.  Yes, game reps are different and they count, but he's been a pro long enough to be good.  Same for Griffin actually.  They are third year pros.  It's time to step up.

 

I believe he can and will, but I plan to judge him as a QB and not as a rookie or student.

 

This is why I have issues with those who say be patient while RG3 practices in real games to develop to become a pocket passer with this being his 3rd year. Blame it on the Shanahans if you want but the fact still remains he should not still be learning how to be an NFL QB in his third year.

He should be refining his skills at this point and making progress. He appears to still be at the starting from scratch phase.

[mojo]

A talented quarterback? Really. How about an unproven quarterback that is surrounded by more hype than substance. I am hoping Jay will not be as foolish as his brother that ran through more quarterbacks than I can mention before being fired. There are many veteran backup qbs that could play as well as Cousins or if not better. I will support Cousins through this stretch but I will definitely not be naive as so many has been.

Sounds like you're just anti Cousins simply because of the hype he gets on this board. So you're willing to dump him. Hate to break it to you but any of these vets you would bring in (which don't exist by the way....) is gonna get the same hype if they come in, make big plays and win games.

[Skins3000]

This is why I have issues with those who say be patient while RG3 practices in real games to develop to become a pocket passer with this being his 3rd year. Blame it on the Shanahans if you want but the fact still remains he should not still be learning how to be an NFL QB in his third year.

He should be refining his skills at this point and making progress. He appears to still be at the starting from scratch phase.

Robert is starting from scratch because he was still running a college offense while the offense was a pro style offense when Kirk played.

[Skins3000]

ame="Skins3000" post="9938329" timestamp="1411041840"]

Sounds like you're just anti Cousins simply because of the hype he gets on this board. So you're willing to dump him. Hate to break it to you but any of these vets you would bring in (which don't exist by the way....) is gonna get the same hype if they come in, make big plays and win games.

Did I not see Josh McCown parlay backup duties in Chicago into a starting job in Tampa? Michael Vick is not better than Kirk Cousins is right now? Anti Kirk Cousins? Who is Kirk Cousins? That is what is killing me. This kid has not done enough to garnish this praise. If he wins he wins and I will smack on the back like you already have but I will be like yes we have increased his trade value like Kevin Kolb.

[Thinking Skins]

Seeing as there's no accurate definition of a QB controversy, I figured I'd use what the media likes to use here, and its basically a situation where the backup gets to play because of injury and forces the HC to wonder who to play when both are healthy. Below I've listed all the teams that had at least 2 QBs start at least one game and how those QBs have performed (record, completions/attempts, completion percentage, yards, TDs, Ints, rating).

 

2013 QB Starters and backups
Bills - EJ Manuel (Started 10 games) 4-6 record, 180/306, 58.8%, 1972 yards, 11 TD, 9 Int, 77.7 rating
 - Thaddeus Lewis - 5 Starts, 2-3 record, 93/157, 59.2%, 1092 yards, 4 TD, 3 Int, 81 rating
 - Jeff Tuel - 1 Start, 0-1 record, 26/59, 44.1%, 309 yards, 1 TD, 3 Int, 45.1 rating

Browns - Brandon Weeden (started 5 games), 0-5 record, 141/267, 52.8%, 1731 yards, 9 TD, 9 Int, 70.3 rating
 - Jason Campbell - 8 Starts, 1-7 record, 180/317, 56.8%, 2015 yards, 11 TD, 8 Int, 76.9 rating
 - Brian Hoyer - 3 Starts, 3-0 record, 57/96, 59.4%, 615 yards, 5 TD, 3 Int, 82.6 rating

Titans - Locker (started 7 games) 4-3 record, 111/183, 60.7%, 1256 yards, 8 TD, 4 Int, 86.7 rating
 - Ryan Fitzpatrick - 9 starts, 3-6 record, 217/350. 62.0%, 2454 yards, 14 TD, 12 Int, 82.0 rating

 

Jaguars - Chad Henne (13 starts), 4-9 record, 305/503, 60.6%, 3241 yards, 13 TD, 14 Int, 76.5 rating
 - Blane Gabbert (3 starts), 0-3 record, 42/86, 48.8%, 481 yards, 1 TD, 7 Int, 36.0 rating

 

Texans - Schaub (8 starts), 2-6 record, 219/358, 61.2%, 2310 yards, 10 TD, 14 Int, 73 rating
 - Keenum (8 starts), 0-8 record, 137/253, 54.2%, 1760, 9 TD, 6 Int, 78.2 rating

Chiefs - Smith (started 15 games) 11-4 record, 308/508, 60.6%, 3313 yards, 23 TD, 7 Int, 89 rating
 - Daniel (started 1 game) 0-1 record, 25/38, 65.8%, 248 yards, 1 TD, 1 Int, 81.9 rating

 

Oakland - Pryor (started 9 games) 3-6 record, 156/272, 57.4%, 1798 yards, 7 TD, 11 Int, 69.1 rating
 - McGloin (started 6 games) 1-5 record, 118/211, 55.9%, 1547 yards, 8 Td, 8 Int, 76.1 rating
 - McFlynn (started 1 game) 0-1 record, 22/34, 64.7, 246 yards, 1 Td, 1 Int, 83,7 rating

Eagles - Vick (startd 6 games) 2-4 record, 77/141, 54.6%, 1215 yards, 5 TD, 3 Int, 86.5 rating
 - Foles (started 10 games) 8-2 record, 203/317, 64.0%, 2891 yards, 27 TDs, 2 Int, 119.2 rating

 

Cowboys - Romo (started 15 games) 8-7 record, 342.535, 63.9%, 3828 yards, 31 TD, 10 Int, 96.7 rating
 - Orton (started 1 game) 0-1 record, 33/51, 64.7%, 398 yards, 2 TD, 2 Int, 85.3 rating

Redskins - Griffin (started 13 games), 3-10 record, 274/456, 60.1%, 3203 yards, 16 TDs, 12 Int, 82.2 rating
 - Cousins (started 3 games) 0-3 record, 81/155, 52.3%, 854 yards, 4 TD, 7 Int, 58.4 rating

Packers - Rodgers (started 9 games), 6-3 record, 193/290, 66.6%, 2536 yards, 17 TD, 6 Int, 104.9 rating
 - Flynn (started 4 games), 2-2 record, 102/166, 61.4%, 1146 yards, 7 TD, 4 Int, 86.1 rating
 - Tolzien (started 2 games) 0-1 record, 55/90, 61.1%, 717 yards, 1 TD, 5 Int, 66.8 rating
 - Wallace (started 1 game) 0-1 record, 16/24, 66.7%, 139 yards, 0 TD, 1 Int, 64.4 rating

Bears - Cutler (started 11 games), 5-6 record, 224/355, 63.1%, 2621 yards, 19 TD, 12 Int, 89.2 rating
 - McCown (started 5 games), 3-2 record, 149/224, 66.5%, 1829 yards, 13 TDs, 1 Int, 109.0 rating

Vikings - Ponder (started 9 games), 2-6 record, 152/239, 63.6%, 1648 yards, 7 TD, 9 Int, 77.9 rating
 - Cassel (started 6 games), 3-3 record, 153/254, 60.2%, 11 TD, 9 Int, 81.6 rating
 - Freeman (started 1 game), 0-1 record, 20/53, 37.7%, 0 TD, 1 Int, 40.6 rating

Buccaneers - Glennon (started 13 games) 4-9 record, 247/416, 59.4%, 2608 yards, 19 TD, 9 Int, 83.9 rating
 - Freeman (started 3 games) 0-3 record, 43/94, 45.7%, 571 yards, 2 TD, 3 Int, 59.3 rating

Rams - Bradford (started 7 games) 3-4 record, 159/262, 60.7%, 1687, 14 TD, 4 Int, 90.9 rating
 - Clemens (started 9 games) 4-5 record, 142/242, 58.7%, 1673 yards, 8 TD, 7 Int, 78.8 rating
 

The top 10 QB ratings were put up by

- Foles (119.2)

- McCown (109)

- Rodgers (104.9)

- Romo (96.7)

- Bradford (90.9)

- Cutler (89.2)

- Smith (89)

- Locker (86.7)

- Vick (86.5)

- Flynn (85.3)

 

Seven of these 10 QBs entered the season as the starting QB for their teams. Although Vick was performing decent, Foles gave a historic performance that put him in as the starting QB for the Eagles. McCown's numbers were nice, but so were Cutler's, so the Bears chose to let him go, but he was picked up by Tampa where he is now starting.

 

I think this gives a nice criteria of performance for Cousins. Right now, Griffin has a 98.4 rating, 0 TD, 0 Int and a completion percentage of 77.5.

 

If Cousins can put together a string of starts similar to what Foles did, then I think it becomes a difficult (if not impossible) argument to put Griffin back in. However, that seems unlikely, not necessarily because of anything against Cousins, but just because of how difficult it is for even the best QBs to put up those type of numbers.

 

The way I see it, based on what Griffin showed in 2012 regarding what he can achieve as well as against the Texans and the first quarter against the Jaguars, I'd think that he has a grasp of that starting position, maybe not a firm grasp but its going to take a lot. Most backup QBs who came into a game put up ratings between 70-80. Those seem like the "Just a Guy" QBs, and I don't think that Cousins can put up those type of numbers and with any real argument, expect to be the starting QB when Griffin gets healthy (I look at the Rams with Bradford and Clemens as an example). An argument can even be made that if we look at the Titans from last year with Locker and Fitzpatrick and say that Cousins would need a rating above 83 for it to be a real argument.

 

Then there's a question of whether coaches will ignore what Cousins did last year. I know fans like to give excuses for his performances, but will coaches? I look at Cassel in Minnesota and McCown in Chicago and wonder how much their previous resume's played in their not being given the starting job despite their success. Both are starting now though, so maybe this isn't really an issue though.

 

Anyway, just my .02

[steve09ru]

Robert is starting from scratch because he was still running a college offense while the offense was a pro style offense when Kirk played.

 

That's already been disproven.