twa Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 It also refutes LaPierre's rhetoric that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. He should have used BEST,or only way w/o reckless endangerment.(though a taser can work) That young man deserves major props.....if not more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 There is very clear consensus in the US - there is NO gun problem. There is NO desire for any gun restrictions. There is wide desire for eliminating the few guns restrictions that still exist. Any gun control discussion in this country is essentially pro-gun people sitting on the chests of people who want to restrict gun sales and playing the "Why are you hitting yourself?" game. Agreed and until there is at least some consensus that guns are part of a huge problem there is zero point even starting talking about solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Agreed and until there is at least some consensus that guns are part of a huge problem there is zero point even starting talking about solutions. we could talk about the other huge problem.....the premeditated choice to kill people not as sexy or simplistic though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacase Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Actually, they did no such thing in any way shape or form. their military caved like a house of cards, and every other engagement in which actual soldiers fought, (not IEDs placed in markets to kill women or at line-ups of police recruits) we crushed them. The only reason it may seem like they gave us a hard time is because we were very careful to choose our engagements in which civilian casualties and interference could be minimized. We also took great pains to minimize US and allied casualties. In Fallujah, in the largest engagements of the war, we tried to re-take it twice, and the first time we halted operations due to civilian casualties and complaints from the Iraqi government even though we had secured 25% of the city in 3 days. In the second engagement 6 months later, we we lost 95 soldiers,, they lost 1,350. We took the city and crushed opposition within 6 weeks. Any slowness or appearance of caution on our part throughout the entire war was strictly of our own choosing. Any time we faced any actual resistance fighters or insurgents, we dominated and destroyed them. We were very much more concerned with the well being of civilians than worrying about enemy fighters. ~Bang You might want to talk to the actual Marines who were there in Fallujah. My partner at work was in Fallujah and from his perspective the Iraqi's were crap. They couldn't shoot to save their lives and basically did dumb stuff. He told me about an Iraqi who attacked them by himself. He threw a grenade that ended up being a dud, then got blasted. When they searched him, all he had was a Koran, a knife, and the grenade he threw. He said the ones they had real problems with were the Chechnyans. when they first went into Fallujah, they went about six blocks into the city and then got pushed back to two blocks. He said every door was wired and all of the roofs of the buildings were knocked out to prevent the Marines from moving via the roofs of the buildings. He said it took about 3-4 weeks to work through the toughest resistance. He said about 90% of the civilians had left and that civilians were not to much of a concern. He said mosques were off limits unless they got shot from them, he recalls his squad firing a TOW missile and a mirinet (sp) and taking out a sniper. Said it was nasty fighting. Yes they gave us problems. Do you actually think if we have a civil war here were are not going to take massive steps to protect infrastructure and civilian lives? We are going to be even more concerned, plus you would see the military fracture. Do you think that soldiers become mindless drones and would be willing to kill Americans just because? I can't see many American soldiers going against their countryman. Plus, Most Americans who own guns can actually shoot. Not to mention many of your Vets with combat experience are going to fall on the side that wants to protect gun rights. But let's get out of this fanciful scenario. The solution to this problem isn't going to be taking away guns, its not going to be putting a gun in everyone's hands. The solution is going to require a cultural shift away from violence. Part of that shift is going to have to include give kids the skills to deal with failures in life. Little Johnny needs to realize that the world doesn't revolve around him and no one owes him anything. We have given our kids this self entitled belief and we have protected them from dealing with adversity. Its got to be a cultural shift to move away from solving our problems with guns or the desire to go out in a blaze of Glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 we could talk about the other huge problem.....the premeditated choice to kill people not as sexy or simplistic though Which leads to this question: Why does this seemingly only happen in America. (And try to answer without mentioning the dude in Canada this week). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLongshot Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 we could talk about the other huge problem.....the premeditated choice to kill people not as sexy or simplistic though You are right, that should be part of the conversation. Mental health, like gun control, isn't taken seriously in this country. And you are right, it is easier to deal with guns, so let's tackle the low-hanging fruit. But, we shouldn't be throwing up our hands and say that we can't do anything about these events, that they are inevitable. Other countries have found ways to deal with minimizing such events. But, as long as conversations like this end up being non-starters because there is no amount of negotiation that is acceptable to the gun lobby, this will continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 You still haven't answered this question. Who on the left wants to ban all guns? Just because the NRA tells you doesn't mean it's true. This is the kind of crap that's spewed all day on free republic. You want to have an honest debate about this topic? Stop misrepresenting the other sides beliefs. If this is all you've gotten out of this discussion, then I've failed. John Lott, in his book "At The Brink", writes about a discussion he had with then Professor Barack Obama where he says, "I don't believe people should be able to own guns." How about MoveOn.org? http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/repeal-the-second-amendment-6 The entire reason I don't want to go down this path is because it will only drag the discussion back towards the whole "Heel Digging" discussion. The compromise you propose is that any state can do whatever it wants as long as there is some vague law about making it difficult to bring guns across state lines. (Which, by the way, I don't think you actually support but that's neither here nor there). Why is this supposed to make me happy? Especially since under McDonald v. Chicago, this isn't even really allowed. I don't think it should be vague. I think it should be clearly defined, in fact. I can't make you believe anything you don't want to believe. I can only try to be reasonable in discussion. The point is not to make you happy. Actually, it would be better if both sides came out with a Law that made both sides unhappy. That would probably be a good sign of compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 If this is all you've gotten out of this discussion, then I've failed. John Lott, in his book "At The Brink", writes about a discussion he had with then Professor Barack Obama where he says, "I don't believe people should be able to own guns." How about MoveOn.org? http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/repeal-the-second-amendment-6 A petition with 196 signatures and a bogus quote from a book written by a guy who thinks Obama is the most radical President in the history of the US. Do you see the problem at hand? You are basing your opinions off of crazy ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 If this is all you've gotten out of this discussion, then I've failed. John Lott, in his book "At The Brink", writes about a discussion he had with then Professor Barack Obama where he says, "I don't believe people should be able to own guns." How about MoveOn.org? http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/repeal-the-second-amendment-6 The entire reason I don't want to go down this path is because it will only drag the discussion back towards the whole "Heel Digging" discussion. I don't think it should be vague. I think it should be clearly defined, in fact. I can't make you believe anything you don't want to believe. I can only try to be reasonable in discussion. The point is not to make you happy. Actually, it would be better if both sides came out with a Law that made both sides unhappy. That would probably be a good sign of compromise. John Lott has been shown to be a flat out liar multiple times. He makes up research results and when people ask for the underlying data he claims his dog ate it. He got caught creating fake online personas to defend his research on academic journals. Even ultra-conservative Michelle Malkin has pointed out his lies. Why would you believe a guy like that? This is so typical of you. You always say you are a moderate or you want compromise, but all of your opinions and sources come straight from the extreme right fringe. It's nice that you are polite, we appreciate that, but you are kidding the hell out of yourself otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 You are right, that should be part of the conversation. Mental health, like gun control, isn't taken seriously in this country. And you are right, it is easier to deal with guns, so let's tackle the low-hanging fruit. But, we shouldn't be throwing up our hands and say that we can't do anything about these events, that they are inevitable. Other countries have found ways to deal with minimizing such events. But, as long as conversations like this end up being non-starters because there is no amount of negotiation that is acceptable to the gun lobby, this will continue. Is most gun violence the result of mental illness or is that mostly associated with mass murderers? I don't think you can solve this issue without looking at American culture and our attitudes towards violence. We had politicians invoking Jack Bauer in debates on the acceptance of torture in this country. If that doesn't paint a sad picture of how our violent culture is all tied together nothing does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Which leads to this question: Why does this seemingly only happen in America. (And try to answer without mentioning the dude in Canada this week). I don't think it is limited to the US, we certainly give it more press and guns being our usual weapon of choice make it more newsworthy The attempts to compare the US to certain European countries by some is useless unless ya wanna dig into the demographics I blame the loss of family structure and accompanying oversight/intervention here....celebrating individualism comes with a price and premeditated killing is the ultimate selfish act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonYoungEra Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Food for thought: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I don't think it is limited to the US, we certainly give it more press and guns being our usual weapon of choice make it more newsworthy The attempts to compare the US to certain European countries by some is useless unless ya wanna dig into the demographics If by "digging into the demographics," you mean that you want to talk about black people and their impact on the US crime rate, we can do that. Feel free to share your thoughts. But rampage killers are almost uniformly white and male. Which means that Europe should be in line with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain James Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 What do you suggest we do to help mentally ill people? Here's something for everyone who suggests we do a better job at treating people with mental health problems. We are much MUCH further along in understanding cancer than we are with mental issues. And we've hardly figured out cancer. There is no magic wand that can be waved to help the mentally ill. For starters this isn't entirely a mental health issue either. But for some reason it's easier to talk about this than gun regulation. Oh I'm well aware that there is no magic wand. Just for clarity, I do not own any guns myself so I'm not leaning a particular way. I AM in fact interested/involved in the mental health/counseling arena though. To be honest, as a Christian, I believe that we church counselors need to be much better trained. For starters, I wish some of these emotionally/mentally disturbed individuals would come to my church dangit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 If by "digging into the demographics," you mean that you want to talk about black people and their impact on the US crime rate, we can do that. Feel free to share your thoughts. But rampage killers are almost uniformly white and male. Which means that Europe should be in line with us. you want to talk about crime or mass shooters? the rampagers also usually kill whites when they are white, as you know demographics includes much more than race(which is a rather muddled classification system itself) sadistic,selfcentered and lacking in compassion are strong trends, and they are not usually from poor households.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Oh I'm well aware that there is no magic wand. Just for clarity, I do not own any guns myself so I'm not leaning a particular way. I AM in fact interested/involved in the mental health/counseling arena though. To be honest, as a Christian, I believe that we church counselors need to be much better trained. For starters, I wish some of these emotionally/mentally disturbed individuals would come to my church dangit! Good for you. Keep that attitude. It's a very helpful one to improving matters. You're in the "taking positive action" group on serious social issues. In the meantime, the Bible as interpreted by mainstream Christianity (no phrasing is perfect), can be such a prodigious aid as it provides plenty of useful tools and means to help others, and more crucially, help them learn to help themselves. Your desire to add to that base is something I find admirable. That we have notable disagreement between us on a few (or maybe more ) matters is something I find comparatively unimportant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Yes, but only one side is interested in banning guns completely as well. That's kind of the point. NPR is not the be all, end all for the right. We have to get past that part of the debate and move on to what is workable. Are you really equating wanting to totally ban guns with shutting down research because you are afraid the results are going to help convince people that your political position is wrong? Do not see the difference between I think X (whatever X is) is a good idea and this is what I believe and I'm going to prevent people from doing work that shows what I believe has problems? How do we move to a solution that is workable without credible studies on what the effects of guns actually are? you want to talk about crime or mass shooters? Mass shooters haven't committed a crime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Mass shooters haven't committed a crime? touche'....but seems much more than a crime ,more along the lines of a abomination Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain James Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Good for you. Keep that attitude. It's a very helpful one to improving matters. You're in the "taking positive action" group on serious social issues. In the meantime, the Bible as interpreted by mainstream Christianity (no phrasing is perfect), can be such a prodigious aid as it provides plenty of useful tools and means to help others, and more crucially, help them learn to help themselves. Your desire to add to that base is something I find admirable. That we have notable disagreement between us on a few (or maybe more ) matters is something I find comparatively unimportant. Word. Of those seeking help, 40% go to their pastor first. Many pastor's are not skilled enough in the art of counseling. It needs to improve. I believe, of course, that if every one would just love Jesus then we wouldn't have these problems! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/06/07/seattle-student-credited-with-stopping-campus-gunman-has-wedding-registry/ So Jon Meis had his registry and honeymoon paid for by strangers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Word. Of those seeking help, 40% go to their pastor first. Many pastor's are not skilled enough in the art of counseling. It needs to improve. I believe, of course, that if every one would just love Jesus then we wouldn't have these problems!It would be a good start if everyone who claims to love Jesus did what He said (love God and love one another, no other commandment is greater). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 It would be a good start if everyone who claims to love Jesus did what He said (love God and love one another, no other commandment is greater). thing is He starts with the hard stuff, but it would improve things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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