Let's Dispel Some Myths From The Broncos Game

[Vilandil Tasardur]

I don't think you get my point at all. And as former coach (basketball and football) if you don't consider how well your players can execute a given a play you shouldn't be the main play caller. There is so much more to playcalling 'then getting someone open'. Is your QB in rhythm? How many yards do you need? Who are you throwing to? How successful is this play vs play X during practice? Is the time right to take a low percentage big gain play or a high percentage lower yield play? etc....

 

Why is a low percentage play such a good call in a situation where you're trying to sustain offense?

Morgan being open doesn't excuse the other miscues throughout the game. 

I like your thinking. But I just feel that second guessing is easy after the fact, especially when we don't know any of the answers for the above play specifically.

 

I would agree that that might be a bad call to Hankerson, who has struggled with drops. Morgan hasn't had those issues though. I maintain that calling that to Garcon is likely to not work because Garcon was the one drawing safety help away. 

 

Moreover, while I think you can situationally plan for your most sure handed receiver running the route, you can't really game plan for your QB making the throw late over the middle (which any coach will tell you is possibly cardinal sin #1).

 

And to your earlier point, I'm not so sure many of those other plays are "more" high percentage. We've tried those bubble screens to the receivers all season with only limited success. Screens, more than any other pass in the game, are predicated upon an accurate ball. The way RG3 was throwing yesterday, I had no confidence in his ability to hit the guy between the numbers in a perfect catch and run position. RG3 was throwing high all day. Throwing high on a screen is a perfect way to get the receiver blown up or the ball popped up for a turnover.

[DC9]

Last week was an aberration considering the JV squad the Bears were left with on D late in the game. Even then they allowed pressure. RG3's running masked a lot of the same problems.

It's quite simple. When RG3 runs the D hesitates. When we are forced into a conventional style O the line struggles. I personally think an upgraded line and a healthy running RG3 will be deadly lethal even with the same wrs. Btw... A good oline can pick up a blitz.

 

Yes, true in regards to the Bears game.  And this offensive line isn't built to pass protect in the conventional sense (that's no secret).

 

But this comes down to Robert getting the ball out.

 

Do you know how many starting linemen the Broncos had out yesterday?  I think it was 3 out of 5 or 4 out of 5.  The ball comes out in 3 seconds and you are fine.

 

That's partially on the OC and partially on the QB.  Robert can't pump the ball twice at Darrell Young and take a sack.  Robert can't pump the ball at Santana Moss and throw a pass 5 yards short of a first down on 3rd down and take a hit. 

 

There are twice as many self-inflicted hits as there are inflicted ones.  Get the ball out!  Who cares about your completion percentage?  Save your body kid!  Be smart with the football!

 

If he can't do that, he's not going to get any better.  He's making mistakes right now that are related to game awareness.  I never thought we'd be having these kinds of conversations with Robert Griffin, III.

 

And yes, good offensive lines can pick up a blitz, but 5 guys aren't going to block 7.  You get 3 seconds in this league.  I'd wager he got 3 seconds plus more often than not yesterday.

[Hooper]

 He's making mistakes right now that are related to game awareness.  I never thought we'd be having these kinds of conversations with Robert Griffin, III.

 

And yes, good offensive lines can pick up a blitz, but 5 guys aren't going to block 7.  You get 3 seconds in this league.  I'd wager he got 3 seconds plus more often than not yesterday.

This. Exactly.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

And yes, good offensive lines can pick up a blitz, but 5 guys aren't going to block 7.  You get 3 seconds in this league.  I'd wager he got 3 seconds plus more often than not yesterday.

Well put my friend.

 

Down 21-7 the Broncos had the ball in the red zone. They were very close to scoring (inside the 15) and we dialed up a blitz.

 

Orakpo was lined up in coverage in the slot, and at the lost moment slid and and blitzed, hard and fast.

 

The down man rushed wide and the tackle stepped out to block him around. The next man in on the line launched into the guard and mauled him great. Orakpo, with a full head of steam, went streaking into the hole. There was no one there. No lineman, no tight end help, absolutely no running back in to pass protect. And he didn't even get half way there. Maning threw the ball to (I believe) Decker straight over Orakpo's head (who never put his hands up) and they picked up like 6 yards.

 

It was as simple as Manning turning, seeing Orakpo coming unblocked, and throwing it to the exact spot he had just been where there was now a gaping hole. Orakpo didn't even get close. He didn't even get close enough to think about getting close. The time from catching the snap to throw was shorter then the time between snap and catch. The time between snap and catch can't have been more than three seconds.

 

Edit:

3rd quarter, I think right before the draw play touchdown. Looks like it was to Welker.

[darrelgreenie]

I like your thinking. But I just feel that second guessing is easy after the fact, especially when we don't know any of the answers for the above play specifically.

 

I would agree that that might be a bad call to Hankerson, who has struggled with drops. Morgan hasn't had those issues though. I maintain that calling that to Garcon is likely to not work because Garcon was the one drawing safety help away. 

 

Moreover, while I think you can situationally plan for your most sure handed receiver running the route, you can't really game plan for your QB making the throw late over the middle (which any coach will tell you is possibly cardinal sin #1).

 

And to your earlier point, I'm not so sure many of those other plays are "more" high percentage. We've tried those bubble screens to the receivers all season with only limited success. Screens, more than any other pass in the game, are predicated upon an accurate ball. The way RG3 was throwing yesterday, I had no confidence in his ability to hit the guy between the numbers in a perfect catch and run position. RG3 was throwing high all day. Throwing high on a screen is a perfect way to get the receiver blown up or the ball popped up for a turnover.

Dude, I can't talk football like this. I can't do it.

You don't have confidence in Griff to throw a screen but you have confidence in more difficult throw downfield?

You're not sure that a screen is higher percentage play then a downfield pass?

 

Who is talking about 'gameplanning for a QB throwing late?

And who is second guessing?

 

And does Morgan being open, and that play being open excuse the rest of Kyle's miscues this game?

[pjfootballer]

I keep seeing all through this site in almost every thread that Morgan should have come up with the ball.  That is a tough catch.  The throw was horrible.  People keep saying "he got his hand on the ball, so he should have caught it" really didn't look at the play.  Not only did Morgan have to slow down, but he had to reach back behind him to try an bring it in.  It would have been a highlight reel type catch and I'm not even sure Calvin Johnson would have brought that in.  I don't blame Morgan one bit for that one.  Griffin made a horrible throw and I'm not sure how people can defend that throw and put any blame on Morgan.  If the throw had have hit him like the Moss throw in the endzone, I'd put the blame on Morgan.  9 out of 10 WRs couldn't have made that catch. 

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Dude, I can't talk football like this. I can't do it.

You don't have confidence in Griff to throw a screen but you have confidence in more difficult throw downfield?

You're not sure that a screen is higher percentage play then a downfield pass?

 

Who is talking about 'gameplanning for a QB throwing late?

And who is second guessing?

 

And does Morgan being open, and that play being open excuse the rest of Kyle's miscues this game?

Forgive me, I don't think I've been quite clear enough.

 

I didn't have confidence in Griffin to make either throw at that point in the game. His accuracy was way off, the most egregious for me having been on the last sideline to Garcon where he had to make that crazy one handed catch. 

 

I'm not sure that for this team, a screen is a higher percentage play than an intermediate pass (I don't consider that play to Morgan downfield. I could be wrong, but I think it was in that 10-20 yard range).

 

I feel like, all season, we have been awful at screens. It always feels like the line pulls a half second too early, or the RB doesn't turn around quite quick enough, or the ball comes out late. On the WR screens, I always feel that the ball is too low and the WR is going down for it and not getting to make a real play with it. The screen to Garcon in the first half was atrocious and we lost four yards on it.

 

And I know that, personally, when I played QB, I had an easier time making the throws over the middle of the field than to the side lines. As a QB, I preferred hitting the in routes and slants right over my center and guards than throwing outside the numbers (which I struggled with). The screens to the outside, like the WR screens, are difficult because you have to set (to fake the D) then turn your body and reset, and throw accurately for the guy to catch and go. As a QB, I preferred going over the middle where I could see things straight in front of me and was less likely to get picked off by some guy I never saw. For me personally, I struggled with the outside throws because I lacked arm strength, which is not a problem for RG3. But I still think that he struggles with outside throws (for a different reason).

 

I also feel that throwing over the middle is "higher percentage" even with inaccuracy even if it seems off. RG3 could have put that ball anywhere in front of Morgan, low, high, on his hip, and as long as it was catchable it would have been a first down. The ball doesn't need to be perfect, just not horrible. Where as, when you throw a screen, every millimeter away from imperfection costs you yards and time needed for the blocks to set up. I think the pass over the middle has a much wider window to hit.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

This is an interesting point that may deserve its own thread. My rough opinion:

 

Last year the read option gashed teams for consistent 3-5 yards. This year, our running game resembles that of most traditional one back teams (Seahawks, Vikings). That is, we run the ball between 30 and 40 times a game and the majority of those (maybe 70%) are for under 5 yards. How many times have we seen Peterson finishes with 100 yards rushing and a TD but like 60 of those came on one or two touches? The rest are plodding forward for 3 and 4 over and over.

 

I don't think our running game has regressed because of this. Rather, I think we're back to normal after a crazy successful last year.

 

Just my opinion though. Maybe on my next free day I'll break down precent of rushes that go for under 5 and over 20 and so forth for ourselves and the Vikings.

 

While true, Peterson is facing more stacked boxes.  I believe the Broncos generally only had 7 in the box against us, that shows a lack of respect or fear for our run game.  And it's not Morris's fault, he's having to make cuts and decisions on half his runs earlier than he should be.

 

Roy Helu does not have the patience/vision of Morris, and he's averaging 3.89 yards a carry.  I think our run blocking is inconsistent, and defenses are starting to be "OK" with an occasional good 10-15 yard Morris run as they focus on shutting down the play action.  They contain RG3 in the pocket so he can't scramble when our receivers are blanketed because we haven't drawn safeties into the box.  I feel like this is why RG3 is getting more time off of things like play action, there are more guys already in coverage cause DC's feel like the, for the most part, their Front 7 can handle our o-line.

[Warhead36]

I agree regarding the screens. We are an AWFUL screen team, absolutely abyssmal, and have been since like 05(those Moss bubble screens were devastating that year). We're just as likely to get blown up and lose 5 yards on a screen as we are to pick up positive yardage. I think this year it's mainly due to the fact that Ds are keying in on the run and loading the box so it requires more perfect blocking and timing since we won't have the numbers advantage.

[RyansRangers]

I agree with your point #3. However we were down 10 and with over 10 mins left and we didnt run the ball and when we intercepted manning with 8 mins left, we didnt run the ball.  No draws, No toss sweeps no darrell young dives up the middle, no planned qb keepers. Nope nothing nada zip.

 

Also Rg3 missing the wide open Garcon and Morgan in the 2nd qtr and forcing the ball to reed who was covered summed up the season. He picks his receiver pre snap and thats where he goes.. Morgan and Garcon were SOOOOOO open john beck makes that TD

[Rodriggo]

Only the Shanahan apologists can look at that second half as an excuse for how things need to stay the same.

 

"No, wait, honestly they're competent, it's everybody else that's wrong, they'll get it together, in year 5, year 6, year 7, year 8, etc, etc."

 

Fact: The offense had one ref assisted TD drive, and a three play drive on a short field.....aaaaannnnndddd that's it.

 

On a day the defense busted it's ******* *** and was holding the ******* Broncos offense in check, our offense gave absolutely nothing.

[darrelgreenie]

does Morgan being open, and that play being open excuse the rest of Kyle's miscues this game?

[repo_4]

When Manning dropped back, I counted “1, 2, 3” and the ball almost never made it to 3.5 in his hands. It was out. With Griffin, it was “1, 2,3, throw it! Throw it now! Move! Get out of there! Duck! Ouch…” I don’t care about guys getting open. If they’re not open, throw it at there feet.

 

 

 

LOL! I was literally screaming this at the TV. My wife so hates watching games with me this year.

[Brokenstriker]

 This isn't high school football. You pull a move like that, and you have yourself the biggest QB controversy in the history of the Redskins. The media would eat that alive. 

 

no arguement ... but at however many $$$$/game he's making and the burden of justifying 3 #1 picks I think they need to find a way to either do a better job of coaching him ... or making it clear to him that doing things his way (if he refuses their way), e.g., playing on bump knees ... throwing when no reasonable pro QB would throw, etc. needs to end immediately.  If the only option is to let him continue to be an unrefined mega-millionaire must-play QB until he's injured, traded or retired ... then maybe the bench wouldn't be such a bad option.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

does Morgan being open, and that play being open excuse the rest of Kyle's miscues this game?

Once again, my apologies. You've asked me that twice now and I meant to answer each time and forgot both.

 

The short answer is no. It does not. I have a whole separate list of things I have beef with about Kyle. I just didn't include them in this thread, partly to keep it from being a book, and partly because people tend to agree on Kyle's failures and I don't see them as "myths".

 

I have, however, entertained myself for two weeks now with this question.

 

If everyone is willing to sit through 3 years of growing pains while a rookie QB learns the position, are we also willing to sit through growing pains while a coordinator in his early 30s learns the intricacies of play calling?  

[Brokenstriker]

LOL! I was literally screaming this at the TV. My wife so hates watching games with me this year.

ditto

[TSO]

Thanks for this thread, OP. I'm out of likes so just wanted to say that. 

[Brokenstriker]

Once again, my apologies. You've asked me that twice now and I meant to answer each time and forgot both.

 

The short answer is no. It does not. I have a whole separate list of things I have beef with about Kyle. I just didn't include them in this thread, partly to keep it from being a book, and partly because people tend to agree on Kyle's failures and I don't see them as "myths".

 

I have, however, entertained myself for two weeks now with this question.

 

If everyone is willing to sit through 3 years of growing pains while a rookie QB learns the position, are we also willing to sit through growing pains while a coordinator in his early 30s learns the intricacies of play calling?  

 

that's a good question ... I'd say it depends re: the QB coming of age and hell no re: the OC learning to be effective.  We invested in God-given physical talent and took advantage of a rare out of our control opportunity to sign him when we picked the rookie QB and unfortunately there are some unrefined dimensions to the way he plays the game ... refinements are entirely possible but need to be taught/coached and most importantly learned/embraced.  We invested in an effective OC ... if he isn't then there are certainly others available ... bars is pretty low at the moment at 1 - 6.

[darrelgreenie]

If everyone is willing to sit through 3 years of growing pains while a rookie QB learns the position, are we also willing to sit through growing pains while a coordinator in his early 30s learns the intricacies of play calling?  

 No worries, but to answer your question no. I am not willing to sit through the growing pains of an OC because they're supposed to ready the OC is not a position for OJT. He's responsible for grooming our franchise QB if our OC is learning find me someone who knows what they're doing.

[blueskin]

I disagree on the "OLine played well" from the OP.

 

They were average, and terrible at the wrong times.

 

RGIII was bad yesterday.  He stared down, he took too long to throw.  I think those hits he took in the first half rattled him, like we hadn't seen before.  KC didn't get hit really, he just threw picks. 

 

Now, I don't want to bench Griffin.  He is going to be better than this.  And KC is not ready to take the reins. 

[gortiz]

LOL! I was literally screaming this at the TV. My wife so hates watching games with me this year.

 

first real brutal meldown at my place ... on the 2nd to last TD, the screen, I freaking lost it. 

 

Grabbed the dogs and went for a walk, never,ever have I bailed like that. 

 

I came back and my wife was like, RG3 threw another INT and he got  hurt .

 

I had nothing left, no reaction. 

 

I did finish watching until the bloody end! 

[Voice_of_Reason]

while i agree that the 3 and out that consisted of a sequence of passes to morgan and robinson that should have been completions (morgan wasnt even looking for that ball, btw and it still hit him in the hand. pass wasnt great but needs to be caught) were not necessarily bad calls, kyle does tend to get 'pass happy' and did abandon the run yesterday to some extent.

 

one legit criticism is that he is calling straight drop backs when our line cannot protect that way. it doesnt work, yet kyle doesnt seem to be able to come up with a plan to move the pocket.

 

The reason that he was calling straight drop backs is because they were intended to be quick, 3 step and throw type plays.  You can't do that if you move the QB.  

 

That goes completely out the window if the QB hold the ball after the third step.  

 

As taught by the great Bill Walsh, on a 3 step drop, the QB wants to cover 7 yards, hit the back foot, and hitch once (if necessary), hitch twice (if necessary), then bail out. They practice bailingout and eluding the rush to get to read #3 or #4.

 

There is a great video of Walsh teaching the 3 step drop technique, with none other than Mr. 3 step drop himself, Joe Montana. 

 

They were trying to get the ball out of Griff's hands quickly.  But that doesn't work if you don't throw on rhythm. 

[gortiz]

RG3 was hurried on 42% of his passes. Even if he hung on to the ball a bit too long on some plays, thats a VERY high percentage. 

 

I'm sure he was rattled and seeing ghosts, like Jaws likes to say. 

 

I just don't see  him throwing with a rhythm. In fact, you never see a clean three step drop from him, not sure why. 

 

I also hate the drifting thing he is starting to do. 

[Wildbunny]

 No worries, but to answer your question no. I am not willing to sit through the growing pains of an OC because they're supposed to ready the OC is not a position for OJT. He's responsible for grooming our franchise QB if our OC is learning find me someone who knows what they're doing.

 

I have no problem with that. What burdens me here, is that lots of people ask for Kyle to be creative, but our players are having a hard time execute the simpliest plays. Our QB locks on receivers ala Campbell on the easiest and whiff on them right now.

 

The drop by Morgan is a great example. It's a simple play, easy route to run, and Morgan doesn't turn its head late after the cut forcing Robert to wait and a throw behind...

 

So why the hell do you want him to be creative, it'll be an utter debacle.

More bootlegs? Rollouts? Our QB is having a hard time outrunning DE...

More screen pass, yeah, I think I can remember a play where Griffin phone called the pass to Helu to the Defense, that got Helu destroyed by a CB. Just like Cooley a few years ago.

 

Many people are bashing on Kyle right now, but honestly, he's definately not helped by the players.

Honestly, our O isn't able to execute much, even the easiest play. So I don't see any reason to get creative or such, players will be more lost and won't execute them any better.

 

Then we can start talking about the way they're coached, but it might be more than that. Who knows if there's not some personal grudge in it. Like an OLine refusing to protect someone and letting him take hit after hit until he comes back to earth...

 

Garcon, said its critics are more related to the scheme than anything, but that might also means that our scheme right now, is just what we can execute and nothing else. Thus blaming the players for not trying or doing too much, thinking they were superstar or I don't know what... Forgetting that they still have a job to do, routes to run, hang on to the ball, make the reads, stick to their assignements, block anybody... At least do something. Paulsen he's supposedly a great Blocker at TE, but he's often seen wondering what to do on the field. 2 guys coming? Which one should I block? left? right??? Oh wait.. they've gone through... Not related to the scheme, or coaching or whatever, but that kind of stuff prevent the coach from opening the playbook because he knows it will fail.

 

We've all seen how Kyle was creative and great at his job last year. I'm having a hard time believing he just turned dumb this year for the sake of it. Right now, I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to open the playbook, because he knows we just can't.

 

I don't know why, but we surely just can't open the playbook right now.

[Chachie]

Being up by 7 in the 3rd quarter and three straight passes is unacceptable whether they were stopping the run or not.

 

 

 

I get ya, DM, but I feel like everyone would now be complaining that we didn't try to pass more. "Why would Kyle call a run play on 3rd and 6?" 

Still not enough read option or rollouts or plays designed to get RGIII out of the pocket,  You can argue about the sequence of poor throws, but what do you expect, he throws better out of the pocket. 

 

Does anyone have a count on the # of playaction passes called when Morris was running at a 5 YPC clip?

 

 

 

True. Trevor Matich made some good points about at least moving the pocket for Griffin. Kyle just never did that yesterday. Odd.