Let's Dispel Some Myths From The Broncos Game

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Everyone keeps talking about moving the pocket. I just don't get it.

 

Observation 1: Robert Griffin barely beat the 300 pound DE to the edgte

Observation 2: Robert Griffin can't throw it through a tire atm

 

Conclusion: Moving Robert Griffin to utilize that blazing speed and having him throw on the run to maximize that pinpoint accuracy will surely work!

 

 

I don't see how that adds up? 

 

My conclusion?

Three step drops and get the ball out of his hand. Hooks, slants, outs, flares, etc. And I think this was Kyle's solution too. The problem was Robert refused to throw it unless the guy had 4 yards of separation, which just doesn't happen in the NFL.

[KevinthePRF]

Disagree with all three myths, although I have to say number 1 and 3, has been somewhat dependent on number 2.

 

Our line has played terrible all year in pass defense, they've been average to bad on running plays.  I really don't know what to say more than what's on tape.  I have only seen a few times this year our RBs have holes where they don't have to break contact at the line of scrimmage.  The only times I have seen our line look great on running plays is where a defense blitzes and overruns the play.(see Morris' Dallas TD).  If they commit to the run, defenses have been faster and ridiculously stronger than our O line.  It's not a testament to their execution of scheme, they have just been consistently overmatched.  This team needs new personnel up front.

   As far as RG3, he definitely isn't a saint. But our O line has shook him all year to the point he has played ten times worse than he is.  He's not getting through progressions because he's a young QB keeping a partial eye on what's coming and not being able to concentrate on what's going on downfield.  The part that is tough to watch is I almost wish the guy was a little more like a young player and take off earlier than needed instead of trying to make something happen from the pocket.  Ironically his maturity is getting himself killed. 

     And Kyle does not escape blame because of the two items above.  Even weeks ago in the Raiders game I was wondering what coaching adjustments would be made to help our horrible line play.  As far as I can see, little to none.  The coaching staff has to come up with more rollouts moving the pocket, when not doing three step drops or read option plays. Even using play action, 5-7 step drops or shotgun that simulates it are leaving the Redskins offense in the same conundrum week in and week out, the middle of the line getting blown up and our passing game ineffective.  I just haven't seen it addressed. 

[garyclarkforhall]

Getting the ball out quick requires Peyton-like anticipation pre-snap.  Denver's best plays are running receivers through traffic and Peyton knowing exactly how defenders will respond before he ever drops back.

 

We don't have that yet with RG.  Here's hoping we eventually find it.

[Dirt]

RG3 had a bad game.  I consider it a compliment to say "if RG3 had a bad game there must be something terribly wrong".  

 

If he has a season full of bad games we can question it, maybe still look at the knee.  And if next year is a season full of bad games, then there you go.

 

Until then, the guy just had a bad game, away at one of the best teams in the league.  Geez.

[darrelgreenie]

Everyone keeps talking about moving the pocket. I just don't get it.

 

Observation 1: Robert Griffin barely beat the 300 pound DE to the edgte

Observation 2: Robert Griffin can't throw it through a tire atm

 

Conclusion: Moving Robert Griffin to utilize that blazing speed and having him throw on the run to maximize that pinpoint accuracy will surely work!

 

 

I don't see how that adds up? 

 

My conclusion?

Three step drops and get the ball out of his hand. Hooks, slants, outs, flares, etc. And I think this was Kyle's solution too. The problem was Robert refused to throw it unless the guy had 4 yards of separation, which just doesn't happen in the NFL.

Griffin can most certainly beat DEs, LBs to the edge did you watch the Bears/Cowboys?

Griffin can and will probably always throw well on the move.

 

And they did move the pocket early in the game, it came in the 2nd series. And guess what? It worked. 6th play. Full house Pistol formation. PA sprint right pass to Reed for the 1st down.

 

Hooks and Outs (which we used) aren't good against man defenses with SAF help the DBs squat and trail behind the receivers.

Slants are much better (we didn't use). RB flares are good but guess what? We don't use them.

[grego]

 

 

The drop by Morgan is a great example. It's a simple play, easy route to run, and Morgan doesn't turn its head late after the cut forcing Robert to wait and a throw behind...

 

 

 

i'm glad you made this observation. i was beginning to think i imagined morgan not turning to look for the ball.  

 

 

as for bootlegs and rollouts, cooley was talking about this a few minutes ago. he said he was surprised he didnt see more of it. 

 

i've wanted to see more of it, because i think its obvious hes not comfortable operating as a drop back passer. cut the field in half, give him one or 2 reads. there is no way its any worse than the straight drops we've seen much of the year and in some games last year.

[SJValleySkinz]

Sorry bud, the 3 straight passes didn't come until it was a TIE ball game, not at the point where we were up 7.

 

Once again, do you run on 1st down? If so, do you ALWAYS run on 1st down? Do you run on first down knowing your last couple of runs have netted 3 yards or less?  I can't fault Kyle for occasionally mixing in a 1st down pass, especially when it was wide open for the play to be made. On second down, I can 2nd guess all day long. But by third and ten, well, you kind of have to throw.

 

How about the myth of why so many of the pass plays that were called had 2/3 man verticle routes? Or of there were so few screens, shallow crosses, shallow digs, shallow ins, slants, etc? What isn't a myth is that you can play clock control through the passing game too. What also isn't a myth is that the pass protection started to whither at the latter stages of the game, and it was at this point that the verticle overload routes were being called more and more. 

[Vilandil Tasardur]

How about the myth of why so many of the pass plays that were called had 2/3 man verticle routes? Or of there were so few screens, shallow crosses, shallow digs, shallow ins, slants, etc? What isn't a myth is that you can play clock control through the passing game too. What also isn't a myth is that the pass protection started to whither at the latter stages of the game, and it was at this point that the verticle overload routes were being called more and more. 

That I totally agree with. My only idea is that, knowing that the Broncos D had been atrocious all year at giving up big plays, the Shannys were determined to hit them. Clearly, we ****ing blew at it. 

 

Anyway you slice it, we didn't get open downfield. We rarely even got single coverage down field, let alone beating it. That's part of why it was so frustrating watching RG3 overthrow deep routes by 10 yards in double coverage.

[gortiz]

 What isn't a myth is that you can play clock control through the passing game too.

Man, so true.  It seems we are incapable of doing that. 

 

We simply do not take what the defense is giving us.  Helu should be catching 4-5 balls a game.  Same with Tana out of the slot. 

 

Robert needs a simple game plan to help set up more aggressive stuff later. 

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Anybody watching Russel Wilson tonight?

 

8 men in the box to stop Lynch. Wilson dropping back, 3 seconds and bail. He's thrown a couple away, and made some plays on others, but he's having the same problem RG3 is. He is holding the ball long after those 3 seconds and isn't beating the coverage over the top when the box is stacked. Definitely hasn't beaten the blitz yet.

 

Edit:

And just as I post that he beats the blitz on a nice slant on 3rd and 1.

[1skinsfninid]

Best post I've read on this forum in quite some time. Agree 120%. I wish more posters were like the OP, someone who is smart and actually knows what they're talking about! Kudos to you sir.

I couldnt have said it better my self

[Lavarleap56]

I also was not buying the "why didn't we run more" complaints. They were stopping Morris pretty easily by the late 3rd qtr.

 

Broncos didn't stop Morris...The Redskins stopped Morris.

[Lavarleap56]

Dude, I can't talk football like this. I can't do it.

You don't have confidence in Griff to throw a screen but you have confidence in more difficult throw downfield?

You're not sure that a screen is higher percentage play then a downfield pass?

 

Who is talking about 'gameplanning for a QB throwing late?

And who is second guessing?

 

And does Morgan being open, and that play being open excuse the rest of Kyle's miscues this game?

 

The crazies have officially took over DG..It's insane how many people are football stupid. 

[Lavarleap56]

Anybody watching Russel Wilson tonight?

 

8 men in the box to stop Lynch. Wilson dropping back, 3 seconds and bail. He's thrown a couple away, and made some plays on others, but he's having the same problem RG3 is. He is holding the ball long after those 3 seconds and isn't beating the coverage over the top when the box is stacked. Definitely hasn't beaten the blitz yet.

 

Edit:

And just as I post that he beats the blitz on a nice slant on 3rd and 1.

 

 

I'm watching.... Basically Sack,Sack,Sack, Sack.. and Sack

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Broncos didn't stop Morris...The Redskins stopped Morris.

 

 

The crazies have officially took over DG..It's insane how many people are football stupid. 

You're one of my favorite posters, and I have a great, great deal of respect for you as a poster and for your football knowledge. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but the tone here is certainly a little disrespectful.

 

Would you care to explain why you disagree with my opinion that the Redskins moved away from the run situationally? Would you care to, perhaps, even educate me as to your opinion? I spent a long time today detailing why I felt the way I did.

 

 

And based on tonight's game, I agree. He had a handful of decent throws but for the most part, I see the same thing as I see in our young QB. Indecision, taking too long to throw, bailing out early, and a backup RT who isn't helping things. Which is a big part of why I touched on myth 3. Because I see other young QBs having the same struggles as RG3 and I think they are part of learning the position for the modern rookie.

[NoCalMike]

RGIII wasn't refusing to move, in fact he was doing essentially what we asked him to do last year, which was instead of taking off running, to shift around in the pocket to allow plays to develop. The broncos coverage was pretty good, RGIII did have time to throw on some plays but no one was open.  He ran to the side to buy time but the WRs need to break off their routes and come back to the ball and not bail on the play all together.

 

Also, the O-line, I think people pick out 2-3 good protection plays from the entire game and then make up their mind that RGIII had all day to throw the entire game.  The fact is, the interior O-line was routinely shoved backwards into Robert's face for most of the game, a lot of the plays where he had time, is because his athleticism bought him more time and he was able to shift away from the problem areas. 

Another issue is WRs who can't seem to catch a ball unless it is in their chest.  NFL Caliber WRs make adjustments to the ball on the fly all the time.  Especially when they are wide open and aren't under pressure by a DB to keep running a route.  The pass to Morgan was off, we all saw it, no one will dispute it, however this is the NFL, you get your hands on the ball and you make the catch. END OF STORY.  Now, maybe because of the bad throw he catches it and falls down for a 25 yard gain, instead of catching it in stride and getting down to the 10 yard line, fine, no one would blame Morgan for that, but the ball hit his hands.  Also, see Aldrick Robinson later. These WRs week after week are showing why this passing game keeps getting stuck in neutral.  They can't do anything above the pedestrian level of play in a league of elite players.

 

This is besides the fact that yes, RGIII still needs work as a passer, no one is disputing it.  The fact that he spent the offseason learning to walk & run again, instead of working on his actual passing, I am sure has a lot to do with him falling behind the curve.

 

However, I am watching Seattle right now, Wilson looks just as off on his throws.  Honestly he doesn't look any better than last year, if not someone worse.  Kaepernick looks great against Jacksonville, but he has struggled a lot this year. 

[chipwhich]

The crazies have officially took over DG..It's insane how many people are football stupid. 

 

While I think coaching was a major component in our loss, the objectivity to lay any blame on Robert doesn't sit well.  This wasn't one of his best games.  And that wasn't solely on the coaches.

[PeterMP]

The crazies have officially took over DG..It's insane how many people are football stupid. 

 

It is true that throwing a screen pass is different than throwing the ball down the field.

 

In Philly, Reid, pretty much eliminated the screen, when Vick played because he wasn't good a throwing them, and he used them a ton with McNabb over the years and went right back to it in KC.

 

Reportedly, Vick had issues seeing over the on running DL, but I wonder how much of it was just a touch thing.

 

I don't know if RGIII can throw the screen well or not, but I'd like to see more of them.

 

**EDIT**

And interestingly, the A gap blitz was very affective against the Eagles last year.  I wonder if it is related.

 

And DC9 (I think) said Greg Cossell was reporting that teams told him RGIII had issues throwing the deep out.  Anybody else hear this or see evidence for it?

 

He has the arm.  Maybe a touch/accuracy issue?

[Taylor703]

It doesn't matter if you try to pass on a 3-step drop if when you hit your third step and no one is open. Our WR get covered and they stop and stand there while Griffin buys time with his legs and eventually gets crushed. Other teams receivers see the QB buying time and they break off their route and come back to help out the QB. The replays showed this time and time again, the receivers just stopping.

I understand the popular thing is to blame Griffin but how anybody could watch what he did last year and question his accuracy or decision making like he never had it is beyond me? He's a young, developing QB who's going through growing pains behind a porous offensive line with little to no receiving help. The problem is he spoiled this fanbase rotten last year with his ability to mask the rest of this teams deficiencies and now when he needs the fanbase to back him when he's struggling you guys bail. The fact remains he tore his knee to shreds laying it all on the line for his teammates, not because of his ego or because he likes subway so much. I think he's more than earned the right to struggle a little bit, and the knee injury regardless of whether he's fully recovered or not has impacted his production this season.

[Lavarleap56]

While I think coaching was a major component in our loss, the objectivity to lay any blame on Robert doesn't sit well.  This wasn't one of his best games.  And that wasn't solely on the coaches.

Did I say anything about Robert in this thread? No, So what are you talking about?

[Vilandil Tasardur]

I understand the popular thing is to blame Griffin but how anybody could watch what he did last year and question his accuracy or decision making like he never had it is beyond me?

I know I'm going to get crushed for this, but my personal opinion is that he WASN'T all that accurate last year either. He just had inflated accuracy numbers due to being very successful at high percentage plays.

 

Below are the number of attempts and then the completion percentage for RG3 last year (2012).

 

NO  --> 26    73.1          W

STL --> 29    69.0           L

CIN --> 34    61.8           L

TB   --> 35    74.3          W

ATL --> 15    66.7           L

MIN --> 22    77.3          W

NYG --> 28   71.4           L

PIT --> 34     47.1           L

CAR --> 39   59.0           L

PHI -->  15    99.3          W

DAL --> 27    77.4          W

NYG --> 21   61.9          W

BAL --> 26    57.7          W

CLE --> Did not play

PHI --> 24     66.7          W

DAL --> 18    50             W

 

 

So, we have 15 games to look at. We can immediately look at 3 games (Pit, Car, and Dal2) as games where he was NOT accurate. I won't even argue these, as he had under 60% completion rate.

 

There are 2 more games where he posted below 62% (Cinci and NYG2). I would argue that these are also games in which his numbers would not indicate a propensity for accuracy. 6 of these nine are over 70 (with that wonderful high moment being the Philly game). Therefore, in a 15 game season, I think it is fair to say that RG3 had 6 bad accuracy games, 6 great accuracy games, and 3 mediocre accuracy games.

 

Taking that, and looking at this season, I think it is fair to question his accuracy with regards to one game. We know that at least half the time, Griffin struggled getting his completion percentage up last year. 

 

If you look at those 6 good games and 3 mediocre games closer, you'll see games where he attempted 15, 18, 21, and 24 passes in a game. I would argue that, when you are only throwing the ball 15-20 times a game, your completion percentage should be higher. When you add the fact that Morris was running to the tune of 1700 yards and the read option had defenders literally standing flat footed, I think the accuracy is explainable and the drop in numbers compared to this year understandable.

 

I also think it is worth noting that Griffin had 6 games over 70% completion and we won all of them except the first giants game. Also of note, in the 7 game win streak, only the first two were particularly accurate performances. The ones following the injury were especially awful. 

 

 

Now, all of that was fact. My OPINION is that, last year, RG3 struggled with accuracy just as he is this season. I felt that, for as amazing as the offense was last year, we still OFTEN left a lot of yards on the field where guys were absolutely wide open and an inaccurate throw resulted in little YAC. Last year, the read option had guys running so absurdly open, that a late throw was forgivable. Guys adjusted and we happily settled for the 15 yards and "what if-ed" the lost yards. This year, those guys aren't that open, and instead those passes that are off are incompletions, drops in traffic, receivers getting killed, etc. Throw in the mechanics of a knee injury and you have a guy who is really struggling.

[Taylor703]

The Pittsburgh game, seriously? You really used the Pittsburgh game as an example of his poor accuracy? This has reached epic levels of stupidity now. A game in which the receivers accounted for 11 drops and you're complaining about his accuracy lmao. He hasn't played well this year that's for sure but you're off your rocker if you think his accuracy was poor or average last year.

[Lavarleap56]

It is true that throwing a screen pass is different than throwing the ball down the field.

 

In Philly, Reid, pretty much eliminated the screen, when Vick played because he wasn't good a throwing them, and he used them a ton with McNabb over the years and went right back to it in KC.

 

Reportedly, Vick had issues seeing over the on running DL, but I wonder how much of it was just a touch thing.

 

I don't know if RGIII can throw the screen well or not, but I'd like to see more of them.

 

**EDIT**

And interestingly, the A gap blitz was very affective against the Eagles last year.  I wonder if it is related.

 

And DC9 (I think) said Greg Cossell was reporting that teams told him RGIII had issues throwing the deep out.  Anybody else hear this or see evidence for it?

 

He has the arm.  Maybe a touch/accuracy issue?

 

My reply to DG was a general observation about talking points i've seen i this thread, nothing specific to screen passes or A gap blitzes. 

[Koolblue13]

You guys are getting a little testie this fine morning. Relax, you're both right. The play calling, mixed with poor qb play, a line that fell apart in the late stage of the game and a lack of any more play makers that couldn't get open.

[CrabR]

he fact remains he tore his knee to shreds laying it all on the line for his teammates, not because of his ego or because he likes subway so much. I think he's more than earned the right to struggle a little bit, and the knee injury regardless of whether he's fully recovered or not has impacted his production this season.

I think he is playing scared. Now that his other knee got banged up lets see how that affects his psyche.  big difference between a 105 and a 79 QB rating. Before the season started he said he wanted to be a pocket passer, then a few weeks ago he said he has to be himself. I think he wants to be the RG3 of last year but a little birdie is saying watch you knee making him reluctant to do the things he did last year.Getting hit like he did last week will not help his psyche either