Let's Dispel Some Myths From The Broncos Game

[Warhead36]

I call BS on Myth#2. That OL is straight garbage. When the game is on the line they fold. The Skins are a running team with a play action passing game. Why in the holy hell do we get away from that? If Denver was selling out to stop the run it should be a no brainer to combat that with a PA pass or screen. Suck them in and make them pay. A good coaching staff would have had that figured out already. I'm ready to move on from them.

The OL isn't "straight garbage." Now at the end of the game when we have no choice but to pass pass pass yeah they gave up pressure, but at that point the game was basically over and most OLs struggle in that situation.

 

Your QB can make your OL look better or worse. Manning had two backup OTs and it didn't seem to matter. The Packers and Steelers won Super Bowls with "meh" OLs.

[Sticksboi05]

I also was not buying the "why didn't we run more" complaints. They were stopping Morris pretty easily by the late 3rd qtr.

 

Still not enough read option or rollouts or plays designed to get RGIII out of the pocket,  You can argue about the sequence of poor throws, but what do you expect, he throws better out of the pocket. 

 

Does anyone have a count on the # of playaction passes called when Morris was running at a 5 YPC clip?

[DC9]

Vilandil Tasardur

You've created/found some myths and argued against them, kudos.

 

How/why is a low percentage play, a downfield route to a questionable WR such a good play call?

What would a higher percentages calls consist of? Maybe target Reed or Garcon? Maybe not throw it downfield? Maybe throw a screen?

Or read-option? Or another run?

 

Does that series vindicate the rest of Kyle's mistakes?

 

You mean when your QB is obviously not in a passing rythem (which is the OCs job) and hasn't been all game, and your QB hasn't hit a pass over 15 yards all game (and didn't to boot, 0 for 7)?

 

Morgan has to make that catch though... he lost money on that play.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Kevin Sheehan on 980 just repeated the OP essentially, and agrees that it was execution more than playcalling.

 

We lost because our QB played terribly. Absolutely terribly. I'm talking Blaine Gabbert bad. You ain't beating anybody with that level of QB play, especially Peyton Manning in his house.

 

Griffin needs to change the way he plays with this team. Right now, if he's dropping back, he needs to come to some sort of decision in 3-4 seconds. That means find someone to throw to or step up and get positive yards with his legs. Griffin hanging out in the pocket while it slowly engulfs him is horrible.

 

He needs to see the field much, much better. Not only does he need to see open receivers, but he has to see where his running lanes are and take advantage of them. His running ability needs to be an element of this offense. If not on called runs, then on plays that break down and especially when teams are playing man-to-man.

[Hooper]

It's been tough to run the RO on 3-4 teams this and last year. The Broncos were ready for it. 

 

And giving us the pass all day long.

 

RG3 really struggling to see the whole field right now. Not sure what OC can change that.

[DC9]

I call BS on Myth#2. That OL is straight garbage. When the game is on the line they fold. The Skins are a running team with a play action passing game. Why in the holy hell do we get away from that? If Denver was selling out to stop the run it should be a no brainer to combat that with a PA pass or screen. Suck them in and make them pay. A good coaching staff would have had that figured out already. I'm ready to move on from them.

 

They did fine last week, no?  They aren't perfect, but 10 was getting his 3 plus seconds back there until Denver went up big and started blitzing.

 

Robert needs to get the ball out. 

[Sticksboi05]

Griffin needs to change the way he plays with this team. Right now, if he's dropping back, he needs to come to some sort of decision in 3-4 seconds. That means find someone to throw to or step up and get positive yards with his legs. Griffin hanging out in the pocket while it slowly engulfs him is horrible.

 

He needs to see the field much, much better. Not only does he need to see open receivers, but he has to see where his running lanes are and take advantage of them. His running ability needs to be an element of this offense. If not on called runs, then on plays that break down and especially when teams are playing man-to-man.

 

Okay, but he isn't and we need to accept that.  There was nothing in the offense today designed to get him out of the pocket on bootlegs, rollouts etc.  He was not seeing the field and Kyle was basically like "whatever, keep standing in the pocket and eventually you'll get one"...never happened.  The creativity of last year's offense is gone but we don't have the guns to remove that creativity from the offense. 

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Vilandil Tasardur

You've created/found some myths and argued against them, kudos.

 

How/why is a low percentage play, a downfield route to a questionable WR such a good play call?

What would a higher percentages calls consist of? Maybe target Reed or Garcon? Maybe not throw it downfield? Maybe throw a screen?

Or read-option? Or another run?

 

Does that series vindicate the rest of Kyle's mistakes?

 

I get your point, I really do. But when you have a play sheet of hundreds of plays and you pick one, you're always going to have a hundred other possibilities, many of which "could" have worked. At the end of the day, as a coach, all I can ask myself is "did my play call result in a deliverable ball to an open man for the desired number of yards". The answer is yes. I would argue that any offensive coordinator who calls plays around the possibility of the ball being dropped should be fired on the spot. You want to talk about playing scared? That's coaching scared. He designed a great play that got a man open. If Garcon was in that spot instead of Morgan maybe the coverage is totally different. We will never know. All we know is that execution fell apart.

 

Also there were TEN men in the box on that 1st down pass to Morgan. Not eight, not nine, TEN. You HAVE to throw against ten in the box. This ain't the 80s anymore folks.

I haven't watched it over again, but if this is true, it is all I need to know. You can't run against ten men in the box just for the sake of "establishing an identity".

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I only see #3 as a 'myth' your accurately busting. 

 

Hail. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

 

Myth Two

I thought the Oline played well yesterday. The guys in the middle struggled at times with inside protection, but I disagree that a guy like Manning would look bad behind them. A guy like Manning gets the ball out of his hands. A guy like Manning is 6’7’’ and doesn’t mind the guys up front move back a little. Griffin looks like if there is any inside push at all, he can’t get the ball over the line and starts dancing around for throwing lanes. He is also determined to make the big, homerun play, and is refusing to check it down at all.

 

I agree and disagree.  The pass blocking was a bit better than what people are saying.  And as you mention, Lichtensteiger and Montgomery were getting beat at times.  Also, Montgomery had that terrible early snap that killed a drive.

 

However, I think our run blocking blows.  It seems like one lineman is getting blown up every play.  I think Alfred Morris is making our line look a lot better than it actually is.  Roy Helu had 5 carries for 11 yards.  Whenever Morris had a bit of room, he was hitting the right holes, making people miss, and picking up extra yards.  After the touchdown run to put us up 14-7, he had 5 carries for 8 yards.  It did not feel like Morris was making mistakes, rather the o-line was getting beat.

 

Our o-line is normally giving RG3 time to pass, with occasional hiccups, but nothing god awful.  I just think our run blocking is woefully inconsistent.  As such, I feel like defenses aren't respecting the run, and play action, as much as they should be.  If our o-line could be a bit more consistent with the run, our routes would start to have more room to work.

[grego]

i believe one thing is true- this offense doesnt appear to work- at all- without the read option element. 

 

i agree our weapons outside of garcon and maybe reed are subbar, kyle needs to find a way to make it work. 

[Vilandil Tasardur]

My brother missed the second half yesterday and asked me to text him updates. Midway through the third quarter I delivered this one.

 

 

RG3 standing tall in the pocket like Drew Bledsoe. RG3 getting crushed in the pocket like Drew Bledsoe.

 

Let's be real, the guy was an absolute statue back there yesterday. We have one of the most dynamic athletes in the game and he refused to move. As was pointed out earlier, when he did move, he couldn't outrun the 300 pound defensive end. Stafford and Rodgers showed more mobility yesterday. Look at Stafford's game winning drive. With everyone in the world knowing he was going to pass, he ducked and dodged defenders to make clutch throws. 

 

At one point yesterday, I saw RG3 bring the ball down in his right hand, and place his left hand ON THE BACK of Montgomery to brace him in his block. Seriously, I'm not kidding. Griffin put his left hand on Monty as though it was going to help. Instead of just moving the **** out of there.

 

 

RG3 plays QB like I play Madden. He waits for a receiver to get open, and then throws it to them. It worked last year because the read option got guys open by 30 yards and there was only one or two reads to look at. But this year, welcome to the NFL. Guys don't "look" open, almost ever. You have to anticipate and throw them open.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Okay, but he isn't and we need to accept that.  There was nothing in the offense today designed to get him out of the pocket on bootlegs, rollouts etc.  He was not seeing the field and Kyle was basically like "whatever, keep standing in the pocket and eventually you'll get one"...never happened.  The creativity of last year's offense is gone but we don't have the guns to remove that creativity from the offense. 

 

Need to accept what? Our QB not seeing the field or not being willing to make quicker decisions?

 

I don't subscribe to the "he is what he is" mentality here. If he isn't going to see receivers and running lanes open up, then they need to spend all week telling him to count to 4-Mississippi and pulling the ball down and running for however many yards he can get.

 

I'm not saying the play-calling cannot improve, but he's the offensive leader and franchise quarterback. He has to take it upon himself to lead this team and make plays no matter what is called. Quarterbacks make "off-schedule" plays all the time. Aaron Rodgers killed Minnesota with his legs on pass plays last night. Hell, Griffin's signature moment in 2012 came on a third-and-long pass call against Minnesota. He saw an opportunity, made a quick decision, and ended a game.

[Sticksboi05]

Need to accept what? Our QB not seeing the field or not being willing to make quicker decisions?

 

I don't subscribe to the "he is what he is" mentality here. If he isn't going to see receivers and running lanes open up, then they need to spend all week telling him to count to 4-Mississippi and pulling the ball down and running for however many yards he can get.

 

I'm not saying the play-calling cannot improve, but he's the offensive leader and franchise quarterback. He has to take it upon himself to lead this team and make plays no matter what is called. Quarterbacks make "off-schedule" plays all the time. Aaron Rodgers killed Minnesota with his legs on pass plays last night. Hell, Griffin's signature moment in 2012 came on a third-and-long pass call against Minnesota. He saw an opportunity, made a quick decision, and ended a game.

 

No, you need to, in the context of yesterday's winnable game, accept that the best option was to call plays designed to roll him out of the pocket and keep the D on edge.  Nobody is afraid of RGIII standing in the pocket.  Not one team, not even Jacksonville.

 

He will improve but the emergence of RGIII in the pocket has to be steady and gradual, you can't throw him in against Peyton and tell him to pocket pass us to a win in his 2nd year.  Not with the receiving corps he has to work with.  Everyone's making a huge deal about the Morgan miscue.  It was a crappy throw but it was still catchable.  Think Dez Bryant drops that ball.  Doubt it.  Garcon probably makes that catch also.

 

Telling this offensive personnel to pocket pass to victory is square peg in a round hole.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

I agree and disagree.  The pass blocking was a bit better than what people are saying.  And as you mention, Lichtensteiger and Montgomery were getting beat at times.  Also, Montgomery had that terrible early snap that killed a drive.

 

However, I think our run blocking blows.  It seems like one lineman is getting blown up every play.  I think Alfred Morris is making our line look a lot better than it actually is.  Roy Helu had 5 carries for 11 yards.  Whenever Morris had a bit of room, he was hitting the right holes, making people miss, and picking up extra yards.  After the touchdown run to put us up 14-7, he had 5 carries for 8 yards.  It did not feel like Morris was making mistakes, rather the o-line was getting beat.

 

Our o-line is normally giving RG3 time to pass, with occasional hiccups, but nothing god awful.  I just think our run blocking is woefully inconsistent.  As such, I feel like defenses aren't respecting the run, and play action, as much as they should be.  If our o-line could be a bit more consistent with the run, our routes would start to have more room to work.

This is an interesting point that may deserve its own thread. My rough opinion:

 

Last year the read option gashed teams for consistent 3-5 yards. This year, our running game resembles that of most traditional one back teams (Seahawks, Vikings). That is, we run the ball between 30 and 40 times a game and the majority of those (maybe 70%) are for under 5 yards. How many times have we seen Peterson finishes with 100 yards rushing and a TD but like 60 of those came on one or two touches? The rest are plodding forward for 3 and 4 over and over.

 

I don't think our running game has regressed because of this. Rather, I think we're back to normal after a crazy successful last year.

 

Just my opinion though. Maybe on my next free day I'll break down precent of rushes that go for under 5 and over 20 and so forth for ourselves and the Vikings.

[Brokenstriker]

you made some nice points but I think there also some other legitimate considerations re: the play calling and the QB.  To the OC ... Morris's average is ~ 5 yds/carry but his most frequent yd/carry is 3 followed by 2 and then a 1 or 5 (based on last year).  Seeing him run two plays for a few yards each isn't necessarily a reason to stop running.  And as you pointed out the run-run sequence on 1st and 2nd down is probably not the best combination given a running back with this history of gains forcing you into very predictable 3rd and long situations ... given the lack of success in the passing game in the first half it seems to me that it would be especially naive to think that you would have success in the second half by sequencing plays that would most likely set you up in 3rd and long must-pass situaitons.   Also I think its probably safe to say that Griffin was not finding a throw he was willing to make in less than 4 seconds for most of the game.  Once it was apparent that the pass defense couldn't protect him in the pocket for longer than ~ 2 - 3 seconds it seems to me that it would have been prudent to shift to other pass options where the QB and pocket are moved (roll-outs, bootlegs) especially when the QB is mobile and even more so when he's a viable threat to run with the ball.  To the QB ... while the issue probably isn't due to being damaged goods ... there are issues ... in particular a documented tendancy to fixate on a receiver, and also a developing tendancy to hold the ball too long.  Clearly one of his most impressive abilities is to complicate the defense's challenge by being both a threat to run as well as a threat to pass at the same time on any given play.  To take advantage of that ability he needs to be in situations that threaten the possibility of a QB run ... which while not impossible is most likely not going to happen from a 3 or 5 step drop into a pocket between the tackles (you more or less addressed some of these issues).  I assume that the reason they don't roll him out, or have him run the bootleg is because they are concerned about possible injuries ... but it really doesn't matter why ... it matters that they aren't doing it.  Cousins is certainly not the second coming of Sonny but I think its also fair to note that he has consistently delivered the ball quickly and while some of those were intercepted it is a reasonable counter to a fragile pocket if the QB and/or pocket isn't going to be moved.  So not a case to remove him due to damage ... but a different take to consider Cousins for a primarily pocket passing attack ... and frankly he can execute the roll-out and bootleg well enough he just probalby won't get as far down field as Griffin if he runs it.  The quick timing on getting the pass off would also go a long way to towards reducing sack and yards lost on sacks ... two other developing concerns about Griffins decision making.

[MassSkinsFan]

Reg. the OL and your myth #2, again you are spot on Vil. Redskins fans more than any other fanbase overemphasize the OL and have a ridiculously high standard of play. In today's NFL if you can get your QB an open pocket for 3-4 seconds you're doing great and more often then not that's exactly what they did. A good QB beats pressure by making throws, something RG3 just flat out did not do yesterday at all. So many times he'd just sit there all day, I too was yelling at him to throw the god damn ball. And I don't buy the "nobody was open" non-sense, for one this is the NFL WRs aren't gonna be wide open that often you gotta be able to throw guys open, and secondly there were many instances where RG3 flat out missed open receivers so I'm gonna assume guys are at least getting a little open but the QB can't or won't hit them.

 

I agree. Unfortunately I think some of our fans who are trashing the OL don't necessarily understand what they're watching when it comes to OL play.

 

I'm not saying the OL is great, but they mostly gave RGIII a good amount of time yesterday in pass pro.

[darrelgreenie]

I get your point, I really do. But when you have a play sheet of hundreds of plays and you pick one, you're always going to have a hundred other possibilities, many of which "could" have worked. At the end of the day, as a coach, all I can ask myself is "did my play call result in a deliverable ball to an open man for the desired number of yards". The answer is yes. I would argue that any offensive coordinator who calls plays around the possibility of the ball being dropped should be fired on the spot. You want to talk about playing scared? That's coaching scared. He designed a great play that got a man open. If Garcon was in that spot instead of Morgan maybe the coverage is totally different. We will never know. All we know is that execution fell apart.

 

I haven't watched it over again, but if this is true, it is all I need to know. You can't run against ten men in the box just for the sake of "establishing an identity".

I don't think you get my point at all. And as former coach (basketball and football) if you don't consider how well your players can execute a given a play you shouldn't be the main play caller. There is so much more to playcalling 'then getting someone open'. Is your QB in rhythm? How many yards do you need? Who are you throwing to? How successful is this play vs play X during practice? Is the time right to take a low percentage big gain play or a high percentage lower yield play? etc....

 

Why is a low percentage play such a good call in a situation where you're trying to sustain offense?

Morgan being open doesn't excuse the other miscues throughout the game. 

[Brokenstriker]

I'm not arguing to have Griffin pulled ... but I suppose I am arguing that the coaching staff (another systemic problem) should make it clear to him he's not playing well and he needs to make better decisions, etc.  Sometimes that message is best delivered by watching from the sidelines though ... being the starting QB for the Redskins isn't his birthright ... its still something he needs to earn on a weekly basis.

[Botched]

Even when RG had all day to throw (which was frequently), he did nothing.

 

He was simply awful in this game, I've never seen him play worse. It was depressing.

[Renegade7]

Good OP. Is it really so hard for people to accept that maybe the Broncos are just a better team then us right now???

[ddub52]

RG3 was hurried on 42% of his passes. Even if he hung on to the ball a bit too long on some plays, thats a VERY high percentage. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

No, you need to, in the context of yesterday's winnable game, accept that the best option was to call plays designed to roll him out of the pocket and keep the D on edge.  Nobody is afraid of RGIII standing in the pocket.  Not one team, not even Jacksonville.

 

He will improve but the emergence of RGIII in the pocket has to be steady and gradual, you can't throw him in against Peyton and tell him to pocket pass us to a win in his 2nd year.  Not with the receiving corps he has to work with.  Everyone's making a huge deal about the Morgan miscue.  It was a crappy throw but it was still catchable.  Think Dez Bryant drops that ball.  Doubt it.  Garcon probably makes that catch also.

 

Telling this offensive personnel to pocket pass to victory is square peg in a round hole.

 

Yeah, I agree with you overall. But, once the ball is snapped it's up to the 11 guys on offense to make something positive happen. If they can do that within the framework of the play, that's great. If not, they need to do more. Standing in the pocket until the very last minute isn't working. Now, I don't know if he's just doing what he's told or just struggling to make decisions.  

 

Regardless of any specific play-call, Griffin needs to react and play with his instincts at this point. There isn't enough OL or WR talent for him to wait for the scheme or play-calls to get people open.

[ddub52]

I'm not arguing to have Griffin pulled ... but I suppose I am arguing that the coaching staff (another systemic problem) should make it clear to him he's not playing well and he needs to make better decisions, etc.  Sometimes that message is best delivered by watching from the sidelines though ... being the starting QB for the Redskins isn't his birthright ... its still something he needs to earn on a weekly basis.

 This isn't high school football. You pull a move like that, and you have yourself the biggest QB controversy in the history of the Redskins. The media would eat that alive. 

[Box76]

They did fine last week, no? They aren't perfect, but 10 was getting his 3 plus seconds back there until Denver went up big and started blitzing.

Robert needs to get the ball out.

Last week was an aberration considering the JV squad the Bears were left with on D late in the game. Even then they allowed pressure. RG3's running masked a lot of the same problems.

It's quite simple. When RG3 runs the D hesitates. When we are forced into a conventional style O the line struggles. I personally think an upgraded line and a healthy running RG3 will be deadly lethal even with the same wrs. Btw... A good oline can pick up a blitz.