Let's Dispel Some Myths From The Broncos Game

[ldysknzfn1]

A post like this is one of the reasons I love being a member here.  I have no where near the level of understanding to the 'X's' & 'O's' that some of the posters here do...I learn so much about the game reading this forum.  It's really great when someone breaks it down..b/c while you're watching it on TV it seems different than it actually is for some reason...Maybe our minds see things we want to see instead of what really goes on...I was in the camp of "we abandoned the run" but after reading this post I wonder if I was even paying attention or was I too disgusted by the wheels falling off the wagon? Thanks for the enlightenment and sharing your knowledge...I like learning as much as I can to better discuss this game that I love

[SkinsWarrior81]

Morgan is supposed to be an NFL receiver... or so we were told.  NFL receivers don't drop that ball.

[PlayAction]

Really?  I see WRs drop those passes all the time.  Catching a pass like that is the exception rather than the rule.

 

Does anyone think RG3 was making good decisions during the game?  I saw avoidable sacks and a screen pass to a receiver who had close to a 100% probability of being tackled for a substantial loss.  There's a lot more but there's not point in piling on.  Sure, more bootlegs might have helped RG3 but I thought the Broncos were doing a fairly good job of making sure he stayed contained.  I don't think RG3 was going to run a bootleg and have no one in his face. 

[MartinC]

It is true that throwing a screen pass is different than throwing the ball down the field.

 

In Philly, Reid, pretty much eliminated the screen, when Vick played because he wasn't good a throwing them, and he used them a ton with McNabb over the years and went right back to it in KC.

 

Reportedly, Vick had issues seeing over the on running DL, but I wonder how much of it was just a touch thing.

 

I don't know if RGIII can throw the screen well or not, but I'd like to see more of them.

 

**EDIT**

And interestingly, the A gap blitz was very affective against the Eagles last year.  I wonder if it is related.

 

And DC9 (I think) said Greg Cossell was reporting that teams told him RGIII had issues throwing the deep out.  Anybody else hear this or see evidence for it?

 

He has the arm.  Maybe a touch/accuracy issue?

 

A screen pass is inherently a higher percentage throw than a downfield throw - but it IS a different kind of throw. It relies on timing and touch to execute well. Its one thing completing the throw on a screen pass its quite another thing to do it with the proper timing after selling the downfield pass and allowing the blocking to get set up and putting the ball in the right spot so the back does not have to lose momentum and can get downfield vision quickly.

 

I don't know how well RGIII throws the running back screen either - but it would be nice to find out! I'd like to see us run more TE screens as well. With the problems we are having with interior blocking and the double A gap blitzes some middle screens would be a good counter.

 

The deep out is not about touch its a power throw - and RGIII has plenty of arm. But it also requires timing, the ball has a long way to travel and no matter how strong your arm you have to throw the ball before the receiver makes his break. Maybe the anticipation and timing throws are still a work in progress for RGIII, thats would not be unusual. 

[PeterMP]

A screen pass is inherently a higher percentage throw than a downfield throw - but it IS a different kind of throw. It relies on timing and touch to execute well. Its one thing completing the throw on a screen pass its quite another thing to do it with the proper timing after selling the downfield pass and allowing the blocking to get set up and putting the ball in the right spot so the back does not have to lose momentum and can get downfield vision quickly.

 

I don't know how well RGIII throws the running back screen either - but it would be nice to find out! I'd like to see us run more TE screens as well. With the problems we are having with interior blocking and the double A gap blitzes some middle screens would be a good counter.

 

The deep out is not about touch its a power throw - and RGIII has plenty of arm. But it also requires timing, the ball has a long way to travel and no matter how strong your arm you have to throw the ball before the receiver makes his break. Maybe the anticipation and timing throws are still a work in progress for RGIII, thats would not be unusual. 

 

1.  In the context of an actual game (which is what we are talking about), I'd suggest it depends on the skill of the players involved.

 

2.  I tend to think that Shanahan isn't completely incompetent.  That if we aren't seeing screens, there's a reason for it.  And it might not be RGIII.  It might be the OL or Morris.  But certainly if they are running them in practice and they don't work, then trying to run them in a game would be real coaching incompetence.  I would not tend to say, we should do X in a critical manner without knowing what is happening in practice.  I would like to see more of them, if they work, but I'm not going to run around screaming they have no idea what they are doing because they don't throw them in a game because I'm not at practice every day.

 

And they do appear to have "fixed" the running game so it is affective w/o RGIII being so much of a run threat, and they appear to be trying different things (more deep passes and more Robinson) so it isn't like they really are doing the samething every week).  I suspect, they are doing what they think will work based on what they've seen in practice.

 

3.  I tend to think that almost every pass requires some touch in an actual game (I guess a slant with a nice throwing lane by a week armed QB would be the sort of case where you'd start to say that's an exception).  While it is true, that generally the problem people have w/ throwing the deep out is power (which is why I stated he does have the arm for it), unless you have a clear path (no LBs in the way to get a hand on the ball), you're almost certainly trying to the throw the ball in a space in 3-D manner.  If you throw it too short, it gets INT.  If you throw out too long, its out of bounds.  To me, that's touch.

[Tyron Biggums]

Broncos didn't stop Morris...The Redskins stopped Morris.

Thank you, thank you. To further that point. The Skins are 9-1 when Morris carries the ball 20 or more times. He hasn't carried it more than 19 times in any given game this season thus far. He is averaging over 5 ypc. In fact I think he is leading the NFL in ypc.

[Taylor 36]

The same exact people in this thread who want to argue that we should have run more in the second half are the SAME exact people who would be in here screaming that we ran it too much when the run wasn't working and we were playing the league's last ranked passing defense.  They would have been calling for Kyle's head saying he doesn't know how to call plays, blah, blah, blah.  Everyone has the answers and excuses when their watching the games from their couch.  The truth is that Kyle is damned by many on this board regardless of what he does.  If we lose, and our QB looks terrible, and our receivers drop easy passes, it is still automatically his fault. (insert old :doh: smilie).

[Vilandil Tasardur]

1.  In the context of an actual game (which is what we are talking about), I'd suggest it depends on the skill of the players involved.

 

2.  I tend to think that Shanahan isn't completely incompetent.  That if we aren't seeing screens, there's a reason for it.  And it might not be RGIII.  It might be the OL or Morris.  But certainly if they are running them in practice and they don't work, then trying to run them in a game would be real coaching incompetence.  I would not tend to say, we should do X in a critical manner without knowing what is happening in practice.  I would like to see more of them, if they work, but I'm not going to run around screaming they have no idea what they are doing because they don't throw them in a game because I'm not at practice every day.

 

And they do appear to have "fixed" the running game so it is affective w/o RGIII being so much of a run threat, and they appear to be trying different things (more deep passes and more Robinson) so it isn't like they really are doing the samething every week).  I suspect, they are doing what they think will work based on what they've seen in practice.

 

3.  I tend to think that almost every pass requires some touch in an actual game (I guess a slant with a nice throwing lane by a week armed QB would be the sort of case where you'd start to say that's an exception).  While it is true, that generally the problem people have w/ throwing the deep out is power (which is why I stated he does have the arm for it), unless you have a clear path (no LBs in the way to get a hand on the ball), you're almost certainly trying to the throw the ball in a space in 3-D manner.  If you throw it too short, it gets INT.  If you throw out too long, its out of bounds.  To me, that's touch.

This is how I feel. I refuse to believe that I'm smarter than an NFL coach with 2 rings. If we aren't seeing screens and bootlegs by the guy who invented bootlegs and learned from Mr. Walsh himself, then it must be for a reason.

 

Based on the screens we HAVE seen, we get blown the **** up. Griff is usually a little inaccurate, the linemen usually peel off  half second early, and the whole thing rarely works, even when it's schemed so that the numbers are an advantage.

 

And boots? We haven't seen those since Cleveland, when Cousins was in the game. I'd guess either they don't like RG3's accuracy on the run, they don't like our receivers route running well enough to take away half of the field, or they see someone playing contain so exaggerated that it would get Griffin killed to roll him out. All are possible. But what I don't think is possible, is that Mike and Kyle simply "don't see" how easy it would be to fix the offense. 

 

The same exact people in this thread who want to argue that we should have run more in the second half are the SAME exact people who would be in here screaming that we ran it too much when the run wasn't working and we were playing the league's last ranked passing defense.  They would have been calling for Kyle's head saying he doesn't know how to call plays, blah, blah, blah.  Everyone has the answers and excuses when their watching the games from their couch.  The truth is that Kyle is damned by many on this board regardless of what he does.  If we lose, and our QB looks terrible, and our receivers drop easy passes, it is still automatically his fault. (insert old :doh: smilie).

This is the essence of my thread.

 

It's all well and good to scream your head off about bull**** talking points like "pound the rock" and "Redskins football" and "70 chip" but it doesn't change the fact that the runs have to work.

 

As I showed in my original post, the first drive that mattered we ran it twice for 3 yards. No one would call a third run on 3rd and 7. On the next drive, we try to mix it up. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. But if Morgan catches that pass we might be talking playoffs right now, because that was a big play we left on the field that could have kept Manning off and led to points.

[skins island connection]

Really?  I see WRs drop those passes all the time.  Catching a pass like that is the exception rather than the rule.

 

Does anyone think RG3 was making good decisions during the game?  I saw avoidable sacks and a screen pass to a receiver who had close to a 100% probability of being tackled for a substantial loss.  There's a lot more but there's not point in piling on.  Sure, more bootlegs might have helped RG3 but I thought the Broncos were doing a fairly good job of making sure he stayed contained.  I don't think RG3 was going to run a bootleg and have no one in his face. 

 

 Yea, I saw that play too. As soon as he got his second step I knew what was happening, and so did the Broncos.

 Griffin is lucky the tackler wasn't a headhunter, or the stretcher could have been brought out; that painfully reminds me of how JC used to hang people out to dry with high passes.

[MartinC]

1. In the context of an actual game (which is what we are talking about), I'd suggest it depends on the skill of the players involved.

2. I tend to think that Shanahan isn't completely incompetent. That if we aren't seeing screens, there's a reason for it. And it might not be RGIII. It might be the OL or Morris. But certainly if they are running them in practice and they don't work, then trying to run them in a game would be real coaching incompetence. I would not tend to say, we should do X in a critical manner without knowing what is happening in practice. I would like to see more of them, if they work, but I'm not going to run around screaming they have no idea what they are doing because they don't throw them in a game because I'm not at practice every day.

And they do appear to have "fixed" the running game so it is affective w/o RGIII being so much of a run threat, and they appear to be trying different things (more deep passes and more Robinsuon) so it isn't like they really are doing the samething every week). I suspect, they are doing what they think will work based on what they've seen in practice.

3. I tend to think that almost every pass requires some touch in an actual game (I guess a slant with a nice throwing lane by a week armed QB would be the sort of case where you'd start to say that's an exception). While it is true, that generally the problem people have w/ throwing the deep out is power (which is why I stated he does have the arm for it), unless you have a clear path (no LBs in the way to get a hand on the ball), you're almost certainly trying to the throw the ball in a space in 3-D manner. If you throw it too short, it gets INT. If you throw out too long, its out of bounds. To me, that's touch.

Not sure whats wrong with the quote feature but I could not break down your post to respond to specific points.

Totally agree the aptitude of individual players matters. But I have yet to come across a QB who finds it easier to complete say a dig route than a screen pass to a running back. I have seen QBs who throw the running back screen better than others though.

I also agree that Shanny is not an idiot (nor is Kyle). They have both forgotten more about football than I know BUT that does not stop us looking from the outside questioning their thinking or approach. We do throw quite a few bubble screens so its not like we are averse to the screen as a concept. Its impossible to know from the outside why we don't throw more (any) screens to running backs but its a very fair question to ask IMO.

On the deep out. I think we have different definitions of touch. There are no throws you make which go in a flat line from your arm to the receiver. Every throw has some kind of an arc on it even if you have a cannon for an arm so that extent you could say every throw is a touch throw. I think though of a touch throw as one when the QB has to take something off his throw in terms of power to drop it into an area for a receiver to run through or under the throw.

I get your point about putting the ball over linebackers and inside say a safety but on a deep out unless the linebacker has a very deep drop its almost a natural consequence of the distance you are throwing the ball that you will have the arc to take it over his head.

[darrelgreenie]

PeterMP, VT

 

So basically you're saying:

 

If we're not calling more screens or rollouts it must be for a good reason because they're the coaches and they're right.

Got it.

 

*And VT as I already posted in this thread we did actually call a rollout it happened in the second series and it worked.

[grego]

The same exact people in this thread who want to argue that we should have run more in the second half are the SAME exact people who would be in here screaming that we ran it too much when the run wasn't working and we were playing the league's last ranked passing defense. They would have been calling for Kyle's head saying he doesn't know how to call plays, blah, blah, blah. Everyone has the answers and excuses when their watching the games from their couch. The truth is that Kyle is damned by many on this board regardless of what he does. If we lose, and our QB looks terrible, and our receivers drop easy passes, it is still automatically his fault. (insert old :doh: smilie).

Taylor, I can't speak for others, but IMO, Kyle could call 100 pass plays In game. As long as the offense is working - as long as we are winning- I couldn't care less.

 

he could call 10 flea flickers- as long as they work. 

 

my problem with kyle is that he lacks a feel for the game. he appears to be bad at adjustments. three years ago, rex in dallas, we are winning. he abandons the run the second half. it was inexusable. 

 

did he abandon the run sunday? maybe. its at least debatable. but the problem isnt really run/pass- its 'lets do something that never works with this group and do it over and over again'. and we lose.

 

i dont know x's and o's but i know when it works and when it doesnt. what he's doing isnt working well. i think its ok to say so. 

 

btw- i really didnt have a problem with the morgan, garcon and robinson 3 and out series. 

 

Really?  I see WRs drop those passes all the time.  Catching a pass like that is the exception rather than the rule.

 

 

 

when your WR runs wide open, its a good idea for him to look back for the ball. he didnt. an NFL WR makes that catch. unfortunately, we have josh morgan instead. and hes ****ing terrible. 

 

i want someone to find that play and post it so we can put to death the myth that since robert had a horrible day, josh morgan is excused from actually looking for the ball because he wasnt. it was infuriating. 

[grego]

our 3 TD's sunday consisted of a pick 6, a TD on a 19 yard field thanks to kerrigan, and a TD that would have been a FG were in not for denver having 12 men in the huddle while we were lining up the kick. 

 

against a defense that the rest of the league has shredded. 

 

thats not getting it done. 

[grego]

Double post

[Voice_of_Reason]

Myth One

Allow me to set the scene. Deangelo Hall has just returned an interception for a TD following a huge score by Morris. We have a 21-7 lead with 11:34 left in the 3^rd quarter. The Broncos proceed to go on a 3:37 minute drive that results in a TD and also includes a critical fourth down conversion. The total drive takes 75 yards as well.

All of your analysis here is absolutely BANG ON.

I broke down every offensive play call from that point until Cousins was in the game in the "optimism" thread. You've got it nailed.

[darrelgreenie]

our 3 TD's sunday consisted of a pick 6, a TD on a 19 yard field thanks to kerrigan, and a TD that would have been a FG were in not for denver having 12 men in the huddle while we were lining up the kick. 

 

against a defense that the rest of the league has shredded. 

 

thats not getting it done. 

You know what's frustrating? Is when people don't repond to the points actually being made but instead focus on what they perceive the point to be. Try and talk Xs and Os and it just becomes a rhetoric discussion not based on football discussion but rhetoric.

The problem with playcalling/offensive coordination isn't from this game alone and its not from getting away from the run or one series with a bad pass and a drop.

 

If we could move the ball at all in the first half of games then our success wouldn't hinge on 2 plays.

There is no way to deny or rationalize away our woeful 1st half performances at one point in the season D.Hall had more points then the offense.

The opening script that they work on all week isn't working.

Against the Broncos we had 7 points in the 1st half 7 points aided by a Denver penalty.

 

Opening series:

Not one running play in the opening series. Pass (scramble), Pass (incomplete), Pass (scramble) Punt.

Its not hindsight either:

http://es.redskins.com/topic/372928-kyles-opening-script-vs-broncos-xs-and-os-discussion/?p=9605853

[Tyron Biggums]

The same exact people in this thread who want to argue that we should have run more in the second half are the SAME exact people who would be in here screaming that we ran it too much when the run wasn't working and we were playing the league's last ranked passing defense.  They would have been calling for Kyle's head saying he doesn't know how to call plays, blah, blah, blah.  Everyone has the answers and excuses when their watching the games from their couch.  The truth is that Kyle is damned by many on this board regardless of what he does.  If we lose, and our QB looks terrible, and our receivers drop easy passes, it is still automatically his fault. (insert old :doh: smilie).

Not me sir. I want the Skins to do what they do best. Which is running the ball which in turn sets up the play action pass. Play action roll out pass out of the pistol formation is what I feel will work best. The Skins have a dual threat QB, and the pass plays that were called was for to RG3 to stay in the pocket even though the OC knew that everyone had been double A gap blitzing against the Skins. When you keep RG3 in the pocket you essentially take away 2 critical things.

 

1 Being that you have all but eliminated his ability to create more time with his elusiveness, and the ability to step up in the pocket to throw accurately.

2 The defense can commit all resources to getting after him because his ability to take off up field has been severally diminished.

 

With the roll out pass you make the defense react instead of attacking. RG3 in the pocket isn't the same threat as when he is rolling out of the pocket.

 

Hail

 

RG3 played bad in Denver, but I feel the OC calls were by far worse than the QB's play.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

You know what's frustrating? Is when people don't repond to the points actually being made but instead focus on what they perceive the point to be. Try and talk Xs and Os and it just becomes a rhetoric discussion not based on football discussion but rhetoric.

The problem with playcalling/offensive coordination isn't from this game alone and its not from getting away from the run or one series with a bad pass and a drop.

 

If we could move the ball at all in the first half of games then our success wouldn't hinge on 2 plays.

There is no way to deny or rationalize away our woeful 1st half performances at one point in the season D.Hall had more points then the offense.

The opening script that they work on all week isn't working.

Against the Broncos we had 7 points in the 1st half 7 points aided by a Denver penalty.

 

Opening series:

Not one running play in the opening series. Pass (scramble), Pass (incomplete), Pass (scramble) Punt.

Its not hindsight either:

http://es.redskins.com/topic/372928-kyles-opening-script-vs-broncos-xs-and-os-discussion/?p=9605853

I won't disagree with you there. I think we have had a problem with play calling as a trend all season and I think that Shanahan has left a lot to be desired in terms of creativity, timing, and use of our skills on the season.

 

My attempt in this thread was just to say that, in this game against the Broncos, I didn't think we got away from the run in the second half. I thought it just fell apart all at once.

[Chachie]

Broncos didn't stop Morris...The Redskins stopped Morris.

 

 

 

Fine. Either way, it's not like the running game was working at that point. I'm ready to move on though. Chargers on the docket.