Ozymandias Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Exactly what heavy, complete criticism did LeBron face before The Decision? He got some flack for losing to Boston and "quitting" on his team in the middle of a close out game but before then it was all "OMG he scored the Cavs last 25 points vs. Detroit!". He got not more flack than any other star player got in the league unless we're specifically discussing Skip Bayless. Nothing compared to after the 2011 Finals or after The Decision. I was following the NBA long before LeBron was relevant and as far as ES goes I was on here nightly posting when the Wiz discussions actually took place in the Wizards section of ES when it was just a few of us. Some criticism that comes to mind are him getting swept by the spurs because he "wasnt able to make his teammates better." Or how about walking off the court against orlando without shaking hands, like hes the only one to have ever done that. LeBron is the most criticized player ever lol its hard to argue against that. But to say he didnt get any criticism until after the Decision is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbi3stix Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I'm so glad we don't have to sit through watching OKC. Two players playing hero ball hoping one doesn't have an off night. Instead we get to see one of the best passing teams probably in NBA history. I find the irony in your statement due to it being against a team who has one of the best passers in the history of the NBA. If the NBA is as it should be, and at times I honestly have doubts at times, then Spoelstra is the most at fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandias Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 What about a lineup of LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Haslem, and Birdman? Sure there is not a lot of offense in the front court, but the preblem is defense. They should have adjusted when the spurs put Diaw in the starting line up. With Birdman on Duncan, and Haslem on Diaw, i think they have a better shot at slowing them down. The only problem is, Bosh would have to guard leonard or some guard, which would be an absolute disaster. Maybe go into a zone? I find the irony in your statement due to it being against a team who has one of the best passers in the history of the NBA. If the NBA is as it should be, and at times I honestly have doubts at times, then Spoelstra is the most at fault. Who are you referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) What about a lineup of LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Haslem, and Birdman? Sure there is not a lot of offense in the front court, but the preblem is defense. They should have adjusted when the spurs put Diaw in the starting line up. With Birdman on Duncan, and Haslem on Diaw, i think they have a better shot at slowing them down. The only problem is, Bosh would have to guard leonard or some guard, which would be an absolute disaster. Maybe go into a zone? So...you "go big" with two guys who really aren't all that big and bring nothing on offense. I mean, there is NO floor spacing there. Miami has always been special when they go small or super-small. In that above line-up, I think you have to put Allen in for Wade, and I guess Lebron is the PG? No, actually, I don't like that either. Lebron is already has too much responsibility. I don't think Spoelstra has a lot of cards left to play. At this point, the Heat have to play a lot better and hope the Spurs start missing. Edited June 13, 2014 by Lombardi's_kid_brother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Some criticism that comes to mind are him getting swept by the spurs because he "wasnt able to make his teammates better." Or how about walking off the court against orlando without shaking hands, like hes the only one to have ever done that. LeBron is the most criticized player ever lol its hard to argue against that. But to say he didnt get any criticism until after the Decision is wrong. That's not what I said so there's your first issue. I find the irony in your statement due to it being against a team who has one of the best passers in the history of the NBA. If the NBA is as it should be, and at times I honestly have doubts at times, then Spoelstra is the most at fault. Are you saying my post was anti-Heat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I'm enjoying the hell out of this discussion. I mean, Nabbs is completely wrong, but it is so entertaining to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) At this point, the Heat have to play a lot better and hope the Spurs start missing. This. The only way S.A. loses is by beating itself. Edited June 13, 2014 by Sticksboi05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 The heat win if it goes 7. I still don't believe anyone can beat the heat in 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Going to be bored when basketball is over. Kind of a bummer that Miami is just getting killed like this. Last year's series was so much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Going to be bored when basketball is over. Kind of a bummer that Miami is just getting killed like this. Last year's series was so much better. At least the World Cup is on. Otherwise it's meaningless summer baseball and golf. In other words, plenty of time to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 At least the World Cup is on. Otherwise it's meaningless summer baseball and golf. In other words, plenty of time to read. I'm thinking about canceling my cable. Baseball is the only thing keeping me from just doing it right now. But I don't know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I'm not saying the Heat would absolutely beat the Thunder, but I don't think they'd be getting blown out the way they are against the Spurs. The Heat would maul the Thunder. The Heat defense might be struggling against a Spurs team that seemingly does everything well but they'd shine against a Thunder team that plays hero ball 80% of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 That is not unprecedented. Didn't Isiah get criticized for the same thing vs. Magic? Isiah as in Thomas? Zeke? Him and the entire Pistons team refused to shake hands after Jordan and the Bulls finally knocked them out. Was he even around for the Magic? I'm thinking they started up on '89 (in which case, yes he was) but I might be off a few on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 (edited) Isiah as in Thomas? Zeke? Him and the entire Pistons team refused to shake hands after Jordan and the Bulls finally knocked them out. Was he even around for the Magic? I'm thinking they started up on '89 (in which case, yes he was) but I might be off a few on that. He was. They lost to the Lakers in the 1988 finals, beat them in the 1989 finals, then beat Portland in the 1990 finals. Isiah Thomas was drafted in 1981. Edited June 14, 2014 by Dont Taze Me Bro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 And they have a better brain trust than an aging Red Auerbach (who had really lost the pulse of the league by that point) and Jimmy Freaking Rodgers. And there are no Bad Boys Pistons or Jordan's Bulls rising in the East. The Heat could just come back with the same group and still be favored to make the Finals out of the East. This is not true. Red was still on his game even after that. I would see him in DC all the time. I think one of his kids went to GW or something, and this was around late 90's. Nice guy spoke with him once. But what killed that team was the unfortunate passing of Len Bias. You had KC retire after that, then lose Reggie Lewis, then you hire Rick Pitino and that was it. Until Doc every coach there was terrible. They aquired some players even drafted Billups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbi3stix Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 (edited) That's not what I said so there's your first issue. Are you saying my post was anti-Heat? Not at all dude Edited June 14, 2014 by bobbi3stix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 (edited) I'm enjoying the hell out of this discussion. I mean, Nabbs is completely wrong, but it is so entertaining to read. You always think I'm wrong (while not seeing just how right I am.) And it's Nibbs. People used to call me Ghost. Too bad my revised name was so ridiculously memorable. Oh well. I do enjoy seeing the occasional "Nibbsy." Edited June 14, 2014 by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 This is still giving LeBron a pass for what he's doing this series. LeBron had a dominant game and powered Miami to a win in game 2. But aside from that, he hasn't played well and he's either been invisible or highly visible in a bad way (cramp game). And Miami looks rudderless, which is the most troubling thing of all. Wade should get killed. He's one of Miami's leaders. But LeBron is their leader and he's just going through the motions. He's THE GUY for Miami. And he is simply not doing a good job leading them this series. That's one of Miami's biggest problems. LeBron gets killed by joe blow fans for his lack of leadership and his tendency to disappear in important games because it keeps happening. How many times does he have to demonstrate that he isn't the competitor that former greats were before we get to acknowledge it? Interestingly, I was getting killed (Lebron and I, brothers enmeshed in the unjust imposition of "Haterade") for saying these same damn things. I mean, I agree with you, but what I said was more or less what you've been saying recently. I still have yet to hear someone actually refute the specific critiques of Lebron's game, as well as how he tends to reduce some of the non-spot up shooting talented offensive players into people who stand around waiting for spot up shots. I mean, I know that's a general NBA trend, but why is it that Lebron seems like less of a gifted playmaker than a fat Diaw? If I include a clip of Kobe's in his prime vs. San Antonio, I think people would see what I mean about Lebron's deficiencies. Kobe is a chucker, but he developed a hell of a post game, footwork, caught MANY a pass off a screen for a standing jump shot, and showed agility and fluidity in movement around the court. Kobe, though in his younger days ownable in the post, became a guy who could legitimately harass elite wing players (and smaller PGs) into bad games and disrupt offenses, something I keep saying Lebron fail to do when it might matter most. IPeople forget Kobe was playing MVP level and playing in a superior conference in the 2008-2010 era and I think the difference isn't that LA was so much better but that the coaching was superior and the system was superior, but also probably that Lebron is a less gifted scorer and with only a couple of exceptions does not seem to have turned on "Glove" Lockdown mode in moments that matter the most. In terms of "eye test" a 29 year old Kobe or Jordan (or Shaq and Duncan) just seem more important on the court, and make, except for the occasional alley oop or something, more impressive and impactful plays. The issue is that Lebron has become less this sort of player and more reliant on his sheer size plus speed/leaping ability. But whatever the statistical success from the post, he simply lacks the sheer package of skills that would make him absolutely devastating there. Even back on this very forum, I'd defend Lebron against Wizards fans who would talk about his travelling, etc. But looking back, I was right that he was great but wrong in that these things he did (Crab dribble, etc) were not just idiosyncrasies but became more and more a reflection of limitations in his game. He simply doesn't have the actual moves or footwork, and maybe he's just too big (except I've seen people his height have step through moves), like the Jordan/Kobe step through from post pivots, or even a reliable take off the dribble except what he can get through sheer size and/or speed advantage. he lacks (at least the last few years, minimum) the quick first step that Wade had up until 2011 (it seems) or the prodigious ballhandling skill that enables some of the more mediocre athletic talents to get separation. As an example, he does not have the same skill in ballhandling for scoring purposes as T-Mac or Kobe (let alone the greats we've mentioned.) The other mistake some make is thinking that the only comparison for Lebron is MJ or Bird or Magic. That's not at all my point (or stevemcqueen's). They are just some of the players to which I think he falls short, in these moments, and part of that is the "Lebron mentality" I described earlier, which was embodied most strongly in his move to Miami (and the team-up with not just Wade but another star in his prime.) I get that it was something of a natural response to Kobe magically getting Pau Gasol on his team, but the interesting thing about a Gasol, is that he didn't become a lesser player really by playing with Kobe, as much as Kobe is a huge chucker. Whereas I can about guarantee you that the Lebron of the last five years or so would render Gasol into a lesser player, just as Bosh has been sidelined (though part of that is poor coaching, or going with what DID work but no longer does.) I am interested to see how the next year or two plays out, both in composition (or team choice for Lebron and others) and to see if a physical decline is in the works for Lebron and what adjustments he makes in response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 (edited) Lebron is averaging 27.5ppg .600fg% 7.3rpg in this series. Durant managed 25.8ppg .475fg% 7.7rpg. So Lebron is scoring more and much more efficiently than the leagues MVP and scoring champ against the same team. Is DWade effort and execution on defense Lebron's fault too? http://youtu.be/T6awLLLgeYM Edited June 14, 2014 by Destino 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WALEOVECHKIN Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I'm interested to see how much urgency the Heat show in an elimination game. The last 3 I can remember (Spurs & Indy last year and Boston the year before) LeBron has been unconscious and carried the team. WIll be very interested to see what he does in Game 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkeyBoy Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 (edited) Lebron is averaging 27.5ppg .600fg% It's only that high because of the shots he's NOT taking Edited June 14, 2014 by EvilMonkeyBoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandias Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 That's not what I said so there's your first issue. Okay im sorry, "heavy, complete criticism" whatever the hell that means. Criticism is criticism. So...you "go big" with two guys who really aren't all that big and bring nothing on offense. I mean, there is NO floor spacing there. Miami has always been special when they go small or super-small. In that above line-up, I think you have to put Allen in for Wade, and I guess Lebron is the PG? No, actually, I don't like that either. Lebron is already has too much responsibility. I don't think Spoelstra has a lot of cards left to play. At this point, the Heat have to play a lot better and hope the Spurs start missing. I think the problem is defense more than it is offense. Someone needs to guard Diaw, and that someone is definitely not Dwade. Maybe put LeBron on him and put Wade on Kawhi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Lebron hate is ridiculous. What is the difference between these finals from last year? The bench players. Miami is getting nothing from Allen, Battier, Cole, and even throw in Chalmers. One game the big 3 went off. To act like Lebron regressed is crazy. Its basketball... I guess you could also say the Heat aren't even making the Spurs work on d with most of their players. Even if Lebron went full Jordan... I am not sure the Heat would win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I'm so glad we don't have to sit through watching OKC. Two players playing hero ball hoping one doesn't have an off night. Instead we get to see one of the best passing teams probably in NBA history.I am going to have to spend more time browsing basketball reference, but I think Jordan-Pippen was pretty much that except they could play lock down d.People in LA also bitter about Worthy ankle injury during 1st Bulls Championship... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 (edited) I am going to have to spend more time browsing basketball reference, but I think Jordan-Pippen was pretty much that except they could play lock down d. People in LA also bitter about Worthy ankle injury during 1st Bulls Championship... Jordan and Pippen had Phil Jackson's triangle offense. Durant and Westbrook do not. Edited June 14, 2014 by Destino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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