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***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

RonArtest15

By RonArtest15
in The Tailgate

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Going Commando

Going Commando

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

I'm not sure OKC is better than the Sixers or the Celtics and maybe not the Raptors (depending on what sort of attitude/effort Leonard brings) or the Rockets.

 

I think the EC teams are behind the Western teams.  I don't really know what to make of Kawhi any more.  And I think Houston got a lot weaker.  Losing Mbah a Moute and Ariza is going to make their defense a lot weaker.  Anderson and Melo are awful defenders.  Gerald Green isn't a very good defensive player.  Nene is ancient.  I look at that rotation and I don't like the 8 or 9 man rotation I see all that much.  CP3 and Tucker and Capela are the only real defenders.

 

OKC, on the other hand, looks like it has the potential to be the best defensive team in the NBA.  They look well balanced between shooters, creators, inside scorers, and defenders.  And they have a superstar PG to power the offense.  Westbrook is very reliable too.  He never misses time and never seems to take games off.  You know you're getting at least 7-8 VORP from him every season now.

 

I think OKC has something pretty special.  I definitely don't think they'll beat Golden State, but I think they might now be the second best team in the NBA.

1 minute ago, RonArtest15 said:

I think it's closer than you guys think...

 

Kobe has Wade on career achievement by a good bit.  Kobe won an MVP, won five titles to Wade's three, and played at a high level for much longer than Wade did.

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RonArtest15

RonArtest15

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5 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I think the EC teams are behind the Western teams.  I don't really know what to make of Kawhi any more.  And I think Houston got a lot weaker.  Losing Mbah a Moute and Ariza is going to make their defense a lot weaker.  Anderson and Melo are awful defenders.  Gerald Green isn't a very good defensive player.  Nene is ancient.  I look at that rotation and I don't like the 8 or 9 man rotation I see all that much.  CP3 and Tucker and Capela are the only real defenders.

 

OKC, on the other hand, looks like it has the potential to be the best defensive team in the NBA.  They look well balanced between shooters, creators, inside scorers, and defenders.  And they have a superstar PG to power the offense.  Westbrook is very reliable too.  He never misses time and never seems to take games off.  You know you're getting at least 7-8 VORP from him every season now.

 

I think OKC has something pretty special.  I definitely don't think they'll beat Golden State, but I think they might now be the second best team in the NBA.

 

Kobe has Wade on career achievement by a good bit.  Kobe won an MVP, won five titles to Wade's three, and played at a high level for much longer than Wade did.

 

Define high-level...he was a high-volume chucker when his career was winding down. 

 

In the prime of both of their careers, I think an argument can be made that Wade was the better of the two.  Kobe has longevity and some of his accolades (all-defense, etc) were off of rep rather than merit based. 

 

 

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Destino

Destino

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55 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

OKC, on the other hand, looks like it has the potential to be the best defensive team in the NBA.  They look well balanced between shooters, creators, inside scorers, and defenders.  And they have a superstar PG to power the offense.  Westbrook is very reliable too.  He never misses time and never seems to take games off.  You know you're getting at least 7-8 VORP from him every season now.

OKC doesn’t have enough shooters.  I’m not sure they’ll be able to keep up with other very good teams that do.  

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PeterMP

PeterMP

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29 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Kobe is closer to Jordan than Wade is to Kobe.

 

Jordan lead the NBA in PER 6 times.  Kobe none.  Wade once. 

 

Jordan lead the league in WS 7 times and WS/min 8 times.  Wade none.  Kobe none.

 

Jordan lead the NBA in VORP 7 times.  Kobe none.  Wade none.

 

Jordan lead the NBA in box score plus minus 5 times.  Kobe none.  Wade once.

 

Jordan lead the NBA in usg% 8 times.  Kobe 3 times.  Wade twice.  

 

Kobe might be better than Wade (and I think Kobe certainly was very good longer than Wade), but the gap between Kobe and Wade is much much smaller than the gap between Jordan and Kobe.

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PeterMP

PeterMP

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Championships:

 

Jordan 6

Kobe 5

Wade 3

 

Seems pretty simple to me.

 

Sam Jones = 10.  Best SG ever?  Seriously, if it is that simple, Sam Jones clearly belongs in the conversation.

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Momma There Goes That Man

Momma There Goes That Man

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Wade also got to the be the guy on his team immediately. Kobe was brought along slowly on a decent team and then even when he was already great early in his career he had to funnel the offense thru Shaq. 99-04 Kobe without Shaq doesn’t have a 3peat but his individual accolades and stats during that time would dwarf Wade as we saw during Kobe’s 05-07 seasons when he had to carry the load on a **** team. 

 

Also, Wade got to call his own fouls in the 06 Finals

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PeterMP

PeterMP

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24 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

Wade also got to the be the guy on his team immediately. Kobe was brought along slowly on a decent team and then even when he was already great early in his career he had to funnel the offense thru Shaq. 99-04 Kobe without Shaq doesn’t have a 3peat but his individual accolades and stats during that time would dwarf Wade as we saw during Kobe’s 05-07 seasons when he had to carry the load on a **** team. 

 

Also, Wade got to call his own fouls in the 06 Finals

 

Kobe's highest USG% is the 2005-06 year and he lead the league in USG% that year, and it is the year he has the highest PER, but his stats that year don't dwarf Wade's.

 

Wade had two years with a higher PER and a 3rd with the same PER (28).

 

Even when Kobe was at the peak of his game and had cause to be selfish, his stats weren't better than Wade's.

 

(I said Wade had to be considered.  I think I'd lean to Kobe for two reasons.  1.  Kobe was better longer.  2.  I think Kobe was a better defender

 

(finding good defensive stats, especially for perimeter players, is hard even with the better technology of today.))

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Kosher Ham

Kosher Ham

Posted
Posted (edited)

Stats are why the NBA playoffs are not as interesting as the NCAA tourney. I watch games...too many games for too many teams...   

Kobe was a hero ball player...so was Jordan,  he ( Kobe) didn't have the shooters from mid range or beyond as much as even ... That other player that wears the number 23 is the best ever.  

 

The fact that Magic and Kareem have both said Kobe was the greatest Laker and then to rank them above him on that same franchise ? Come on man. 

West, Big O, and Wilt would probably agree also. Hell, I think Shaq has said it. 

Are we going all the way back to Mikan ? 

Kobe played in both eras pretty much. 

 

The conspiracy thing with the NBA is one of those things that I don't really believe in... but this when the 19 year old was making a statement???  Kobe was putting the league on notice... they were not ready for it...so he got benched. 

 

 

 

Edited by Kosher Ham
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Going Commando

Going Commando

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11 hours ago, PeterMP said:

Kobe might be better than Wade (and I think Kobe certainly was very good longer than Wade), but the gap between Kobe and Wade is much much smaller than the gap between Jordan and Kobe.

 

I agree with this.  The only player since Jordan that's consistently come close to the level Jordan played at is LeBron.

 

And I also agree that peak Wade was probably a little better than peak Kobe.  He had a two year run from '08-'09 to '09-'10 that was better than Kobe at his best.

 

But I definitely think you have to properly weight longevity when you're taking account of a player's career.  It's exponentially harder to play at an elite level for 10+ years than it is for 5 or 6.  It's the clearest demonstration of what kind of a competitor a player is when he gives you great season after great season for 10+ years. 

 

It's human nature to get complacent and bored and tail off after you reach a peak level of play.  We saw that happen with the Warriors this season.

 

To sidekick a threepeat and then lead teams to back to back titles is a much more impressive accomplishment than leading one team to a title than quickly falling off and then sidekicking back to back title teams.  Kobe was a better competitor than Wade was.  He's one of the better competitors in league history.

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Lombardi's_kid_brother

Lombardi's_kid_brother

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Part of the analysis of Kobe has to include the fact that no other organization in history ever let a player do what he did for as long as he did.

 

They blew up a championship dynasty partially to appease him. They stood by him in a rape case. They drove out a Hall of Fame coach to appease him. They let him take as many shots as he wanted to appease him. They had the old GM facilitate an insane trade with the new GM to appease him. They just said "Screw it" and let him do whatever he wanted for as much money as he wanted for the last two years of his career.

 

I also don't think any all-time great gets credit for titles where he clearly wasn't the best player on his team the way Kobe does. By Kobe logic, Scottie Pippen should be an all-time top ten player.

13 minutes ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

Who is a more fierce competitor Westbrook or Kobe?

 

Oh God. I've never seen anyone like Westbrook, not even Jordan. He's both pathological and indefatiguable.

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Going Commando

Going Commando

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Posted
2 hours ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

Who is a more fierce competitor Westbrook or Kobe?

 

I honestly don't know.  Westbrook is one of the best competitors too.  And he's more athletic and individually productive than prime Kobe was.  And you could make an argument that Westbrook is a better team player than Kobe was.

 

Kobe was a much, much smarter basketball player than Westbrook though.  And he competed much harder on defense than Westbrook does.  Westbrook used to run through screens all day long.  But he doesn't play hard on D any more, and hasn't for some time.

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Destino

Destino

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6 hours ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

Who is a more fierce competitor Westbrook or Kobe?

Westbrook is an animal on the offensive end, but I don't think anyone is impressed with his competitiveness on the other end of the floor.  He has moments when he feels like his pride is on the line, like after he was lit up by Ricky Rubio in the playoffs, but they're rare.  I like Westbrook but it's hard to say he's a great competitor when he's dead last in contesting shots (among players averaging 30+ min) two years in a row. 

 

3 hours ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

Kobe quit vs the suns. I’ve never seen Westbrook give up.

I think it's clear that Kobe was an out of control asshole.  LKB put together a good list. 

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Renegade7

Renegade7

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Posted
4 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

Ive seen LeBron give up.

He gave up after J.R. ran out to the three point line and they lost game one.  Its so weird, he could have a 30 point triple double and people still see and say he played too passively and sometimes not be wrong.

 

That was an interesting stat comparison of kobe/wade to jordan.  I get where kosh is coming from, I'd rather have kobe then wade because kobe is psycho competitive. That's certainly who I'd want the ball in their hand with last shot of the two (LeBron is underrated in that stat)

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