***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[JoeWolf990]

The original point was in comparing the 2012-2014 Spurs Finals teams to the 96-98 Jazz Finals teams. Those Jazz teams were better than these past two Spurs teams were. Duncan isn't even close to as good a player as Malone was during this span. Duncan is old and Malone was in his prime.

The Spurs during 2012-14 >> those Jazz teams

Duncan being guarded by Greg Ostertag?

Stockton on Parker is a great matchup, but I think Parker gets him. This is a better era for point guards than 96-98.

The Spurs are a lot deeper too. And the Spurs have a better coach.

The West from 96-98 was much weaker than the West of the early 90s and weaker than today's West by a lot. The Lakers were not there and had Del Harris and Rambis as coach. Houston were old. The Sonics fell apart. Spurs had a baby Duncan and Robinson started having back issues. Nah, this Spurs team is better. The Jazz were wildly overrated.

[Going Commando]

I can honestly see where you're coming from. You would love to have a dominant inside and outside defensive combo. But Jordan and Pippen were different. They shut stuff down. Besides, they where on the all-first defensive team five times. The longevity alone would make me take that over Duncan and Bowen.

IMO a perimeter player just can't have the same individual impact (good or bad) on a team's defense than the big man. The big man is involved in almost every half court possession. Plus, as the team's main rebounder, they're the ones finishing the D most of the time too.

Don't forget, Bowen was a junk yard dog on defense too. He was feared on that side of the court just like MJ and Pippen were. Maybe even more so because he could pretty much focus all of his energy on that side.

I think those Bowen/Duncan Spurs teams were better defensively than the Bulls were. They were very intimidating, and their style was effective against some pretty brilliant offensive teams in LA, Phoenix, and Dallas.

You had some big rules changes in the late 90's and early 2000's that changed the way defense was played. If you put Pippen/Jordan in an era of no hand-checking, their defense majorly suffers. At the same time, the relaxation of the illegal defense calls which tacitly allows zone defense puts a big emphasis on having a cerebral, rangy defensive big man like Duncan. Now weakside shot blockers can have an absolutely dominant impact on D, and you've got a lot less of a need for having a boulder-sized man on man defensive big to body up posting bigs when you can throw double teams at bigs very easily.

There's a reason big men almost always win the DPOTY award. They have such a huge impact.

[JoeWolf990]

Other than the 2004 Pistons, every championship team has had at least two Hall of Fame players, so what, that's expected of any title team.

 

So in your agenda-ridden post, you are implying that any player that has had a great coach and a Hall of Famer on their team has never willed their team to victory.

again, when did Jordan "will a team" to championships the way Lebron couldnt? I need to know when this happened.

LOL at calling my post agenda-ridden when the fella I quoted wrote a post slandering Lebron.

Edited July 7, 2014 by JoeWolf990

[CrypticVillain]

I don't. Cleveland sports fans are obnoxious. In my entire life, I've met one sensible Cleveland sports fan, a guy I worked with. But even he said ridiculous things like "I would take Matt Schaub over RG3". Bunch of haters.

I was talking more about the younger fans...

 

[mcsluggo]

take Lebron off this heat team, and put MJ on it...   does the rest of the team still lay a turd in the finals?   i think so.   

 

 

 

MJ was less able to carry talentless teams than LBJ has been able to.... but surround him with a well constructed team perfectly designed to compliment him, and he was the PERFECT tip of the spear.    

[No Excuses]

We made it like 3 days without LeBron/MJ discussions.

 

[Sticksboi05]

again, when did Jordan "will a team" to championships the way Lebron couldnt? I need to know when this happened.

LOL at calling my post agenda-ridden when the fella I quoted wrote a post slandering Lebron.

 

I did not see the original post.  Now that I have, I will respond.

 

Burgold's assertion that LeBron cannot will his team is unfair.  He certainly willed them in Game 7 last year (granted, he wilted at the end of what should've been the deciding Game 6), he willed the Heat past the Celtics with that huge game at TD Garden and of course way back in 2007 in the ECF's vs. Detroit.  Do I take him in a 7-game Finals series over Jordan, no, but I'd take him over about 99% of the players who have played in the NBA.

 

Your post I responded to simply said "when did Jordan will his teams"...to me that is ridiculous, I mean where to begin.  In '92 he had to average 36 ppg for them to win, in '93 41 ppg.  If you have to score 40 ppg+ for your team to win, that is willing your team to win.  Then in 97 with the pivotal Flu Game and 98 with Pippen injured he took it home in Game 6 vs. Utah.  I consider that willing your team to win.

 

I assert that Bird willed his team to win in '84 and Magic in '87 and Wade in 2006 etc.  Having great teammates doesn't mean you can't will your team to victory.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Goddamn we have some good knowledge in this thread

My favorite on the board

[Sticksboi05]

There's a reason big men almost always win the DPOTY award. They have such a huge impact.

 

Duncan has led the league in defensive win shares 5x.  His defensive impact really cannot be underestimated indeed.

[Going Commando]

There is certainly some truth to this. Especially when I think about how Lebron and Wade do the join press conferences and Bosh is always left looking like the odd man out.  He didn't get much respect in Miami and they basically turned him into a jump shooter because Lebron and Wade both wanted space to attach the rim.  He's got his rings, he should go somewhere he'll be free to play his game again and make the amount of money he deserves.  Why take a pay cut to play with Lebron anymore?

I would like to see Bosh play for a different team than Miami to see how good he still is.

I'm not so sure Bosh would blow up again if he goes to a different team that gives him his old role in Toronto again. I think that Bosh is gone. If he were still here, couldn't Miami have certainly used him this year when Wade was absent/ineffective so often? They've always needed rebounding and they could definitely have used a great PnR big and a high post scorer. That dropping rebound number is telling to me. That's a big who doesn't like doing the dirty work any more IMO, and stays around the perimeter out of necessity.

I think Bosh might be in heavy decline and if he took a max deal for most teams, he would get exposed as an awful contract. Houston or Dallas would make the most sense for him if not Miami because he could remain a secondary or tertiary option. But even for them, he's not worth a max deal.

I wouldn't mess around with Bosh this summer. LeBron and Melo are the only true impact FAs left IMO.

[Going Commando]

take Lebron off this heat team, and put MJ on it...   does the rest of the team still lay a turd in the finals?   i think so.   

 

 

 

MJ was less able to carry talentless teams than LBJ has been able to.... but surround him with a well constructed team perfectly designed to compliment him, and he was the PERFECT tip of the spear.

Miami is certainly not talentless, and the talent gap between Miami and those second threepeat Jordan Bulls teams is in part because of the gap between Jordan and LeBron. And if anything, the 2010-2012 Heat were more talented than the Jordan Bulls were because Dwyane Wade was still an elite player those first two years.

Also Jordan carried lousy teams in Chicago before Pippen emerged just as LeBron carried lousy teams in Cleveland.

Jordan was better than LeBron and, more than anything, it comes down to Jordan being a better competitor and leader. People can roll their eyes at that all they want, but it's the truth.

[Chew]

Jordan was better than LeBron and, more than anything, it comes down to Jordan being a better competitor and leader. People can roll their eyes at that all they want, but it's the truth.

 

Thank god there are some people who get it.

 

lebron will never be MJ23, period.  I know most folks realize that, but there's still those few who will argue 'til they're blue in the face. 

 

MJ23 never lost. 6-0.  As of today, Lebron has a losing record in the finals.  "But Lebron wasn't surrounded by talent the way MJ was."  LOLOL

Edited July 7, 2014 by Chew

[Going Commando]

mcsluggo, you piqued my interest with that point you made about Jordan's teams being perfectly designed for him and he could be the tip of the spear.

I think that they really were very well constructed, and you saw that in the synergy produced. Those teams were way better than the sum of their parts. It's a lot like the post 2007 Spurs, or those Steve Nash Suns teams that were so fun to watch.

I wouldn't say it's the ideal team for Jordan because they had a pretty noticeable flaw in the lack of quality true bigs.

Jordan's teams surely would have been better if he'd done like LeBron and teamed up with the two of the other three best players in his draft class in Hakeem, Barkley, or Stockton.

But it was a great construction nonetheless. And more than anything, Phil Jackson was the perfect coach for MJ and that triangle offense was the perfect system.

And honestly, while Miami had overwhelming talent those first two seasons and for much of the third season, have they been an ideal construction? I think not, and the brevity of their run is pretty strong evidence.

They were only really built with a four year window in mind while the Jordan Bulls really would have had an 8 year window if not for Jordan's early retirement. Those Wade and Bosh contracts were very bad on the back end and giving LeBron an ETO and then a player option could completely screw over the Heat. But the Heat had to do it because they let their players have all the leverage from day one. Looks like Miami's latest blunder is dealing up to reach for Shabazz Napier because that's the guy LeBron wanted. Napier is a small, slow scoring PG that was a second round talent at best.

GMs make better team builders than players do. This team that LeBron and Wade and Bosh essentially built ended up not being all that well constructed in the end.

As one of my favorite posters on RealGM put it, "players really should wait until they're rookie coaches to become GMs."

[Bubble Screen]

Thank god there are some people who get it.

lebron will never be MJ23, period. I know most folks realize that, but there's still those few who will argue 'til they're blue in the face.

MJ23 never lost. 6-0. As of today, Lebron has a losing record in the finals. "But Lebron wasn't surrounded by talent the way MJ was." LOLOL

I don't know what it is with this generation's fans. First it was Kobe is better than MJ. Then LBJ. Lol When will these people learn.

[Sticksboi05]

Can we call it the Curious Case of Chris Bosh?

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

But if Bosh signs in Houston, they would be a force

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

If Michael Jordan joined the 2014 Hornets, we would no longer have to post anything on this thread. Our jobs would be complete.

Jordan's teams surely would have been better if he'd done like LeBron and teamed up with the two of the other three best players in his draft class in Hakeem, Barkley, or Stockton.
 

 

Stockton in the Triangle would have been a sin.

[Sticksboi05]

If Michael Jordan joined the 2014 Hornets, we would no longer have to post anything on this thread. Our jobs would be complete.

 

Stockton in the Triangle would have been a sin.

 

What, what about LeBron's legacy?

[Mr. Sinister]

If Michael Jordan joined the 2014 Hornets, we would no longer have to post anything on this thread. Our jobs would be complete.

 

I think you should start a bet.... Whoever goes the longest without muttering something about Jordan's (or Larry Bird)  legacy wins an automatic paternity test to see if they are indeed his son...

[daveakl]

If you are the Hornets gm wouldn't you be better getting Jordan to suit up then paying the max to haywood?

[Going Commando]

Duncan has led the league in defensive win shares 5x.  His defensive impact really cannot be underestimated indeed.

Yeah, I think he's the second greatest defender in NBA history to Russell.

That said, I think Russell is the greatest defender in NBA history by an enormous margin.

I would probably rate Hakeem and KG somewhat close behind Duncan as third and fourth and Wilt and Kareem close behind them at fifth and sixth. It's a little tricky with Wilt and Kareem though, defense was a different animal back then. Both could completely change a game defensively if they wanted to. But defense was easier for a giant big man back then because the shooters weren't nearly as good. And also both of those guys have a reputation for dogging it on D at times that KG and Hakeem don't have.

Then after all those guys, I think you get a bit of a drop off to the Ewing/Malone/Robinson third tier. They were all very good, very tough defenders. But I don't see them as being the truly transcendent defenders the guys ahead of them were.

Now, as a pure defender, I think Mutumbo was actually ahead of Hakeem as the third greatest defensive player ever on just skill alone. But the thing is his actual impact was NOT the same as those guys. You have to actually be out on the floor to play good defense after all. And continuity of team and system is a huge benefit for defensive performance. Mutumbo wasn't the offensive player all of those other guys were so he couldn't command the minutes they did. Or have one team hold onto him and build around him the way those other guys did. Same thing happened to Marcus Camby and Kenyon Martin and their careers never really lived up to the expectations.

When you think about it, it's actually pretty remarkable that Joakim Noah, Marc Gasol, and Roy Hibbert have become such fixtures for their teams despite not being the major offensive contributors. They really are the linchpins of their team's identities. Good teams too. And Gasol and Hibbert aren't even rebounders either. I think it shows just how impactful an extremely high quality defensive big man can be in the era of spaced out floors that we're in.

Also, I want to point out how a great system and a great defensive center really works well in tandem with the right kind of PF.

It seems like the sabremetrics community really doesn't like traditional two big line ups any more because of the floor spacing issues on offense. I feel like they don't have a proper way of evaluating the defensive impact these two big lineups actually have and so they undervalue the effect. Notice how ZBo and David West are not considered strong defenders on their own. But they're heady and competent and work within a great system, and most of all, they have size and incredible chemistry with a truly dominant defensive big man they play beside. The effect is so powerful.

You saw the effect with Duncan and Splitter too, and to a lesser extent with Ibaka and Perkins in OKC. Splitter is a good and competent defender, but it's that pairing with Duncan that makes the Spurs a great defensive team. Perkins is barely useful at this point, which holds OKC back from being a great defense. But they're still good. When OKC Adams is finally ready to replace Perkins for good, I think you'll see the Thunder take a major step forward and become a truly great defensive team.

Perhaps we'll see this big man effect happen in Dallas this season with Tyson Chandler and Dirk. Dirk's not a great individual defender but he's a very competent defender and Carlisle runs a great defensive system. They can make some real strides.

Chicago is an interesting example. Noah is an extremely good and impactful defensive player, but his body and lack of strength are such that he might not even be the best pure defender on his own team. But you pair his strengths with Taj Gibson and you've got the best defensive front court in basketball by a large margin.

Another one that looks very promising for next year is the Anthony Davis & Omer Asik line up in New Orleans. I think they're going to be totally dominating. I think that team is going to win a championship in the next five seasons.

When you think about it, are there any great defenses in the league that only run a one traditional big line up and use stretch 4s? I can't think of it.

Another key to having a great defense seems to be having a wing that's a truly great defender to pair with that good two big front court. Indy has Paul George. Chicago has Butler. San Antonio has Leonard. For the Wizards, none of Ariza, Nene, and Gortat are truly great defenders. But they're all good defenders and you end up getting a pretty good D because of them.

That tells me Dallas needs to keep Shawn Marion to be able to run a good D. And New Orleans needs to find that perimeter stopper to go with their bigs because it definitely ain't Tyreke Evans or Eric Gordon.

It also tells me that if Boston got a truly excellent defensive center then it would transform their team IMO. I wish they were trying to trade for Larry Sanders instead of Kevin Love. Brad Stevens + Smart/Bradley + Sanders is an incredible foundation for D.

[JoeWolf990]

I did not see the original post.  Now that I have, I will respond.

 

Burgold's assertion that LeBron cannot will his team is unfair.  He certainly willed them in Game 7 last year (granted, he wilted at the end of what should've been the deciding Game 6), he willed the Heat past the Celtics with that huge game at TD Garden and of course way back in 2007 in the ECF's vs. Detroit.  Do I take him in a 7-game Finals series over Jordan, no, but I'd take him over about 99% of the players who have played in the NBA.

 

Your post I responded to simply said "when did Jordan will his teams"...to me that is ridiculous, I mean where to begin.  In '92 he had to average 36 ppg for them to win, in '93 41 ppg.  If you have to score 40 ppg+ for your team to win, that is willing your team to win.  Then in 97 with the pivotal Flu Game and 98 with Pippen injured he took it home in Game 6 vs. Utah.  I consider that willing your team to win.

 

I assert that Bird willed his team to win in '84 and Magic in '87 and Wade in 2006 etc.  Having great teammates doesn't mean you can't will your team to victory.

and then the Bulls were down 15 points in the 1992 Finals, in the 3rd quarter. Phil Jackson benched everyone, including Jordan, and the Bulls made a comeback and eventually won the game.

Flu game was game 5.

Do not get me wrong, Jordan was amazing but there has been some great tall tales told about dude since even during his career.

No one player wills any team to a title. They can be dominant, but you need more. Jerry West averaged 38ppg one finals series and lost.

Stockton in the Triangle would have been a sin.

no he wouldnt

Wouldnt have the ball in his hand enough

[Going Commando]

On LeBron to Cleveland:

That's the one place he could move to that wouldn't end up hurting his legacy IMO. If he goes home, I actually think he gains respect back by going to a troubled team in need of leadership and an identity. And it'd be an attempt to win his hometown that championship he promised them.

It's a prodigal son story line and it would play well.

If he stays in Miami, his legacy is safe too even if he doesn't win another ring.

If he ends up anywhere else he's a mercenary 100%.

Miami and Cleveland are his only two good options. Dallas makes the most sense basketball-wise by far IMO, but it'd be dirty. It's got to be Miami or Cleveland.

I kind of want it to be Cleveland.

I actually think it could be extremely beneficial to both Cleveland and Miami if they did a S&T of Wiggins for LeBron.

Then they S&T Bosh to Houston for Jeremy Lin and Chandler Parsons. Saddle Houston with a max deal and get two promising younger players in the process.

Tell me a Miami team core of Lin, Wade, Wiggins, and Parsons isn't interesting. And Cleveland and Houston get their players in the process. Miami goes from having no assets (in the scenario of trying to keep the big 3) to cashing in two of them to skip the worst parts of a rebuild and come away with a very high quality foundation piece.

[Kosher Ham]

 

 

MJ was less able to carry talentless teams than LBJ has been able to.... but surround him with a well constructed team perfectly designed to compliment him, and he was the PERFECT tip of the spear.    

 

Prior to Pippen and Phil...Jordan was compared to Dr. J and 'Nique. We all recognized his great ability, but he was known as a selfish player same as Kobe and others have been called.

 

  'Nique never had the right team or coach, Dr. J. needed Moses to finally get that ring. He had been to the Finals 3 times prior to winning.

[JoeWolf990]

nothing Lebron does will effect his legacy. Legacies are formulated in the future, not present.

Lebron could goto the Spurs and win 7 more titles, and no one will say this "well he had to do this to win a title" stuff.

If Lebron has any self-respect, he would never play for Dan Gilbert.

Edited July 7, 2014 by JoeWolf990