skinny21 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 DG - didn't want to quote your whole response, but yeah... passer rating and running average are two big ones as well. Not big on the rush ydg against stat though - very misleading (not that you mentioned it) - in fact I seem to recall we were easily top 10 in this category but around 17th in rush avg defense (in '12?). 3rd down conversion is surprising, though obviously the D must have really, really stunk on 1st and/or 2nd down. It may be a high bar but think a reasonable goal is the playoffs. Keep it simple. Over the course of a full year, a playoff teams defense will be forced to hold its own in its lion share of games if not most. We can talk yds allowed or points allowed blindly but those are heavily influenced by our own offense / special teams, let alone the success of our defense when actually on the field. Playoffs is indeed a good goal, but not much of a barometer for the defense due to the dependency on the other units to achieve it. We can talk about points/yds against and not do it "blindly". Take the Dallas game with all the ST returns - I gave the defense a decent grade for the game because many of the points weren't their fault. I actually argued for a time last year that the D wasn't as bad as they seemed when you factored in field position and offensive turnovers. I was wrong - the defense was still quite bad - but I was right that they were frequently put in terrible positions by the other two units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Washington Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 The third down stat was surprising. It must have been that teams rarely made it to third down before scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 That 3rd down conversion rate is baffling to me.  Never expected to see that. Not real surprising to me. Our problem was not giving up the many-play drives that had a bunch of third downs but giving up lots of big plays. How did we rank in giving up the first down on first or second down? Seemed we either stopped you cold or gave up the big play. We also were pretty bad on fourth down, IIRC. Drives against us were quick and started on the shortest field in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Darth- You're right the D was very bad on 4th down, near league worst: 29th of 4th down % allowed 12 of 17 4th downs.   People guessuspeculated that the defense must have been bad on 1st down or 2nd down to justify the defense being good on 3rd down. There are no stats for 1st downs given up on 1st and 2nd down. There is a stat for number of 1st downs allowed: Washington #21--22nd 1st downs allowed by run--25th 1st downs allowed by pass.   Back to some other metrics.                                                                                                                                    Now on to some other defesive metrics:  Football Outsiders Defensive Efficiency Ratings http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef  Washington 17th Pass Defense 22nd Run Defense 17th  Another quick snap of pass defense is YPA: Washington 31st @ 8.0 ypa Seattle was tops w/ 5.8 ypa Top 10 was 6.8 Top 15 was 7.1  Sacks Sack yards lost: Washington 23rd Tops was Carolina w/424 Top 10 was 283 Top 15 was 260 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I actually argued for a time last year that the D wasn't as bad as they seemed when you factored in field position and offensive turnovers. I was wrong - the defense was still quite bad - but I was right that they were frequently put in terrible positions by the other two units. I agree with what you argued with the additional factor of the offense ability to score points. The offense had yards but not points and points change the dynamic of how the defense plays. If the only things that change are better special teams and an offense that sustain drives and finish with points then with no other changes the D would have been better. Â For the most part the metrics I posted isolate the given area without a lot of noise from other factors. I wonder if they'll help people decide what benchmarks they would aim for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Football Outsiders Defensive Efficiency Ratings http://www.footballo...m/stats/teamdef  Washington 17th Pass Defense 22nd Run Defense 17th   Points allowed: Washington 30th Top was Seattle 14.4 Top 10 was 21.1 Top 15 was 23.5  3rd down conversion % This is gonna shock some people but Washington was 4th at 34% Top was the Lions at 30% Top 10 was Seattle at 35% Top 15 was Colts at 38%  Turnovers: Washington 16th w/ 26 turnovers Top was Seattle w/ 39 Top 10 was 30  My number one metric for pass defense is opponent passer rating:  Washington 27th allowing 96.1 passer rating The top defense was Seattle at holding(pun intended) opposing passers to a crazy 63.4 Top 10 defense was Carolina at 81.4 top 15 was the Eagles at 84  Another quick snap of pass defense is YPA: Washington 31st @ 8.0 ypa Seattle was tops w/ 5.8 ypa Top 10 was 6.8 Top 15 was 7.1  Sacks Sack yards lost:  Washington 23rd Tops was Carolina w/424 Top 10 was 283 Top 15 was 260  Metrics I look at for rushing:  RB avg: This might also surprise some people but Washington was 12th (tied) at 4.0 yds per rush Top was the Jets at 3.4  Runs allowed over 20 yards: Washington 18th w/11 runs allowed over 20+ Top defense Ravens w/5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 If you keep reading you'll find some other interesting stats Player Talent Level 32. Redskins Number of no talent players on one defensive unit 1. Redskins Number of delusional fans who think defensive talent doesn't matter nearly as much as the D coordinator 1. Redskins number of defensive starters who couldn't crack the starting lineup for most college Teams 1. Redskins defensive roster that most resembles a pile of steaming doggy dung 1. Redskins Anyways these metrics are interesting to me because they isolate a lot of factors without a lot of noise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 number of defensive starters who couldn't crack the starting lineup for most college Teams 1. Redskins  Haha!  I was just posting in the PFF thread about all the things I thought our defense/players would need to do this year to field a solid defense.  It read like "well, if we could just have these 57 things break our way, we could be decent".   I would love to hear what Haslett and Raheem think about our secondary guys off the record.  We're the least physical team I have ever seen back there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepball1 Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014  Tough for me to put actual benchmarks out there, when so much of the defense is still relatively unknown.   How good is Clark still?  If he's a good as last year that's an improvement, but if he falls off the cliff as London did last year, then it's questionable.  Furthermore, I feel that everything the Redskins gained in leadership/communication in Clark, they lost with Fletcher, so I don't count on the Redskins improving too much in that area.   Can Keenan Robinson stay healthy?  If he is healthy, will his great practices/training camps show on the field?  If so, I think his coverage skills could pay dividends for their defense, and really help expand the list of plays Haslett can call.  Since he'll have a a LB that can cover a receiving TE, and can make the deep drop on tampa-2.  Will Hatcher's health be an issue?  His interior pressure is a must for this defense to succeed.  If his health prohibits him from having the impact he's proven he can, the pass-rush could still be a large issue. Even if Amerson develops and Clark still plays at the level he did last year, we still don't have the secondary to make up for a poor pass rush.   What I'd like to see from Haslett, since that seems to be what we're referring to when we discuss benchmarks: -A scheme that utilizes 1-gapping more than 2-gapping.  Cofield is still as poorly suited to be a 2-gap NT now as he was when we acquired him.  1-gapping would allow him to use his greatest strength, which in my opinion is his speed off the snap.  In addition I feel that it would utilize Hatcher's ability to penetrate.  -More pressure brought in long 3rd/4th down situations (so long  as our defense shows the ability to tackle) -More man-2 with pressed corners IF our front-4 can generate some pressure and defense shows ability to tackle in open space -More stunting from d-line -Some innovative d-line sub packages that successfully utilize our talent -Good play calls in game changing situations What I do not want to see: -Heavy blitzing with pressed corners, which some seem to think is a good idea wow..you sure have a lot of question marks for the Skins. And in some ways you are right, because until you prove something nothing is assumed. But at the same time, the past does not equal the present so you can't assign blame to someone for a current problem just because they did something in the past.  And the reverse is true. Just because somebody did something well last year doesn't mean they will repeat the performance, because the key factor in all of this is this: all the circumstances which produced results last season are gone forever. There will be new circumstances created every week, and the only thing we have to go on is the talent that the players possess. We don't know if Hatcher is going to be healthy, he probably will be, but if he is, Hatch is going to disrupt. That is a given IF he is healthy, because he did it last year when he was healthy.  But all those suppositions about schemes, your guess is as good as mine and that is an advantage for the Skins right now because Houston is looking at the OLD Haslett and what we are going to get should be something a bit different. Much like what happened to us with Philly last year....other teams will experience that with our offense and defense this year. They don't know what is coming. They might THINK they know, but it will be different because game film from last year is worthless now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 If the offense can produce like it should and the STs give us better field position, the additions of talented players and coaches on the defensive side of the ball, should allow Haz to be aggressive and play his style of football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planter Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 DG - How good is Clark still? If he's a good as last year that's an improvement, but if he falls off the cliff as London did last year, then it's questionable. Furthermore, I feel that everything the Redskins gained in leadership/communication in Clark, they lost with Fletcher, so I don't count on the Redskins improving too much in that area. Can Keenan Robinson stay healthy? If he is healthy, will his great practices/training camps show on the field? Will Hatcher's health be an issue? His interior pressure is a must -More pressure brought in long 3rd/4th down situations (so long as our defense shows the ability to tackle) -More man-2 with pressed corners IF our front-4 can generate some pressure and defense shows ability to tackle Some innovative d-line sub packages that successfully utilize our talent... Nail.l.led it....but that clause "if our front-4 can generste some pressure".True but you know you 've arrived as a defensive front when 4 guys can pressure the QB and still tackle occasionally.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Football Outsiders Defensive Efficiency Ratings http://www.footballo...m/stats/teamdef  SCHEDULE represents the average offensive DVOA of all opponents, with teams ranked from hardest schedule to easiest schedule.  We are ranked 2nd for SCHEDULE. If I'm reading that right, that means we had the second hardest schedule in terms of average offensive DVOA of all opponents, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 We are ranked 2nd for SCHEDULE. If I'm reading that right, that means we had the second hardest schedule in terms of average offensive DVOA of all opponents, right? I don't know, but we went up against a whole lot of top offenses. I recall comparisons made about the number of top offenses vs top defenses the team played. Offense had a cupcake schedule and blew it, defense had a tough schedule (and blew it worse). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 I forgot the another quick and dirty snapshot of a defense: yards per attempt allowed (Will update later/ on phone right now..happy 4th to all) ------------------------------------------------------------- I figured with all the people talking about the defense some would stand up and make a claim based on some actual defense numbers that we could track..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 We are ranked 2nd for SCHEDULE. If I'm reading that right, that means we had the second hardest schedule in terms of average offensive DVOA of all opponents, right? Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 I like FBO stats on defense because they aren't affected by outside stuff.  To add the previous mentioned stat: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&season=2013&seasonType=REG&role=OPP&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-p=1&conference=ALL&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&d-447263-s=SCRIMMAGE_YDS_PLAY_AVG  Yards Per Play Washington 27th at 5.7 Tops was Seattle 4.4 Top 10 was NO 5.2  Football Outsiders Defensive Efficiency Ratings http://www.footballo...m/stats/teamdef  Washington 17th Pass Defense 22nd Run Defense 17th  Points allowed: Washington 30th Top was Seattle 14.4 Top 10 was 21.1 Top 15 was 23.5  3rd down conversion % This is gonna shock some people but Washington was 4th at 34% Top was the Lions at 30% Top 10 was Seattle at 35% Top 15 was Colts at 38%  Turnovers: Washington 16th w/ 26 turnovers Top was Seattle w/ 39 Top 10 was 30  My number one metric for pass defense is opponent passer rating:  Washington 27th allowing 96.1 passer rating The top defense was Seattle at holding(pun intended) opposing passers to a crazy 63.4 Top 10 defense was Carolina at 81.4 top 15 was the Eagles at 84  Another quick snap of Pass defense is YPA: Washington 31st @ 8.0 ypa Seattle was tops w/ 5.8 ypa Top 10 was 6.8 Top 15 was 7.1  Sacks*  Sack yards lost:  Washington 23rd Tops was Carolina w/424 Top 10 was 283 Top 15 was 260  (Total sacks is pretty much the same as sack yards lost but anyhow...) Washington 21st w/36 Tops was Carolina w/60 Top 10 was Bengals w/36  Metrics I look at for Rushing:  Rushing Defense...RB avg: This might also surprise some people but Washington was 12th (tied) at 4.0 yds per rush Top was the Jets at 3.4  Runs allowed over 20 yards: Washington 18th w/11 runs allowed over 20+ Top defense Ravens w/5  A couple of interesting articles about the defense that are kinda off topic but kinda fit in this thread thought...here:  Chris Russell 50 sack theory... How Can the Redskins Get Better? 50 Sacks http://www.espn980.com/includes/blog/index.php?action=blog&blog_id=8&post_id=18851  John Keim Sacks not biggest key for Redskins' D....(Keim wants to see lower yards per pass attempt) http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/62976/sacks-not-biggest-key-for-redskins-d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 http://www.redskins.com/media-gallery/videos/Coach-Haslett-Talks-Defenses-Progress/8eb3150d-a318-479f-8ee9-a49ecfeabf93 Â everyone's favorite d coordinator speaks^^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 I feel that for most of the fans, grading Haslett this year will come down to the basic stats, points allowed and yards allowed. And that is fine, all fans are equally entitled to their own opinions. It is the only measuring stick we knew for decades, it seems. At least by factoring in those basic stats, we can grade them relative to their peers of previous eras.  Things i will look for, is how aggressive Haslett starts and finishes games. And as mentioned, making the playoffs. While making the playoffs is an obvious more team stat/goal, anything less than that making the playoffs should be considered a failure in year 5 of a rebuild. And that includes the DC here for that time more than first year coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Devil's advocate.... Lets say the D is worse in terms FBO dvoa BUT plays aggressive and the offense propels the team to the playoffs that's okay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 ----------------------------------------------------- For those people out there that want Haslett to show something or people that want the defense to reach certain benchmarks what statistical measures are you looking at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 DG, I'm probably not in the group that you are referring to, but I really want the defense to not be a liability. I'm not going to look at specific statistics, but I just want them to make some stops, maybe even in some tough situations like after a turnover, to help win games. It's kindof the eye test for me. I know an ok defense when I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Defensive Expectations (barring injury)  Points Allowed:From 30th-29.9 ppg to 20th or better under 25 ppg Top was Seattle 14.4 Top 10 was 21.1 Top 15 was 23.5   Yards Per Play: From 27th at 5.7 to 5.4 or better 18th Tops was Seattle 4.4 Top 10 was NO 5.2   Yards Per Pass Attempt: From 31st @ 8.0 ypa to 20th or better under 7.5 Seattle was tops w/ 5.8 ypa Top 10 was 6.8 Top 15 was 7.1   Opponent QB passer rating: This is the area I want to see the biggest jump w/ additions of Hatcher and Clark  From  27th allowing 96.1 passer rating to 15th QB rating under 85 The top defense was Seattle at holding(pun intended) opposing passers to a crazy 63.4 Top 10 defense was Carolina at 81.4 Top 15 was the Eagles at 84   SACKS: with the addition of Jason Hatcher and more rush opportunities the sack total MUST rise From 21st w/36 to top 10 or better 43+ Tops was Carolina w/60 Top 10 was Bengals w/43   **Pass plays over 20 yards: Washington 24th w/ 58 to ~50 or less 16th Tops was Seattle w/30 Top 10 was 47   Rushing Defense...RB avg: Maintain Washington was 12th (tied) at 4.0 yds per rush   3rd down conversion %: Maintain in the ballpark  Washington was 4th at 34% Top was the Lions at 30% Top 10 was Seattle at 35% Top 15 was Colts at 38%   Football Outsiders Defensive Efficiency Ratingshttp://www.footballo...m/stats/teamdef Washington 17th to 15th or betterPass Defense 22nd to 15th or betterRun Defense 17th to 15th or better  Turnovers: MaintainWashington 16th w/ 26 turnoversTop was Seattle w/ 39Top 10 was 30  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 So basically an average defense with a couple things they do well (rushing the QB, and 3rd down conversions). Personally, I'd be thrilled if they reached those benchmarks, mostly because if ST improves (they should) and the offense plays like we think they can (top 10), we could be in for an exciting year and a big turnaround. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 One thing that I always valued, that don't necessarily get reflected into many stats, are turnovers and points off of turnovers. A gambler is going to give up the big play but then maybe next game he lands a pick 6. Haslett seems to try to be that gamble for turnovers type, but suspect many DC's preach turnovers and design for them. It seemed in recent years we had more DTDs than many years before it combined. Hasletts doing, or random; we cannot say for sure.  A Kerrigan INT, was he coached up to not bury his head and jump to bat balls, or is that instinct.  DG has laid out a fine broad based approach to grading Haslett this upcoming year.  Maybe being league average or better in a vast majority of measurables should constitute success for our beleaguered DC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 It should certainly equate to success, but that doesn't mean he needs to stick around. Honestly though, considering this is the first year in a long time that our talent level on D is fairly solid, I won't be upset if Haz sticks around after an average defensive season. Mainly because 'average' would represent a serious swing in our defensive showing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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