Jim Haslett : Time For Him To Show Something ?

[Morneblade]

Wrong about what?

 

So you are responding to post about defensive metrics to say that you don't want to debate it? Great.

 

But you also tried to launch into another strawman argument about Haslett that had NOTHING to do with my post or my views about Haslett or did you forget that part of your post?

 

 

You're wrong there friend. Or did you miss/forget this post....................

 

Notice how I quoted your post? Then at the bottom acknowledge your ~16th expectation.

Heck, I even say "Cool"

 

I just wanted to set things straight to avoid confusion so we can move on.

Neither of us think very much of Haslett.

Me and some other people have long since moved on from Haslett to talking about the defense in general.

Which has lead to a discussion of defensive metrics. I like my thread starting privileges and didn't think it wise to start a thread about a tangent. *shrugs*

And this is why I stayed out of this for so long.

 

Question 1 :Wrong about me not understanding what the current conversation was focusing on. I was quite aware it was about metrics. The comments after that were in reference to a previous post as to why people like myself had not provided "what would I consider an acceptable Defense" metric.Consider it background information on the "why". If you need clarification on anything further, let me know.

 

Statement 2: You asked "What would I consider acceptable?" I gave you my metric (and later my reasoning). That is not debatable. It's what I consider to be "acceptable" for 2015. Or do you think you can tell me what I find acceptable or not?

 

Statement 3: I gave you a metric, and you responded by saying "Cool"....... and then asking for more metrics. Hence my response.

 

To sum up, I'm keenly aware what the conversation is currently about at this time. I gave you my personal opinion, and a number. You may ask why I came to such a conclusion. But no, you can't debate my opinion on this, especially something as subjective as NFL Defensive rankings that I (and only I) will consider an acceptable level. In other words, you don't get to tell me what to think. You may ask me to consider other/different information, but that is all. You also don't get to tell me that for my own criteria I need to have more numbers. You may have them for yours, but you don't get to make my criteria. 

[darrelgreenie]

Dude,
 

Statement 2: You asked "What would I consider acceptable?" I gave you my metric (and later my reasoning). That is not debatable. It's what I consider to be "acceptable" for 2015. Or do you think you can tell me what I find acceptable or not?

Dude, what are you talking about? You are once again inventing points of contention that don't exist.
Since when is saying "Cool" any of the above?
 

Statement 3: I gave you a metric, and you responded by saying "Cool"....... and then asking for more metrics. Hence my response.

Huh? You need to re-read that post because no where do I ask you for more metrics.

That's a figment of your overly defensive imagination.

But no, you can't debate my opinion on this, especially something as subjective as NFL Defensive rankings that I (and only I) will consider an acceptable level. In other words, you don't get to tell me what to think. You may ask me to consider other/different information, but that is all. You also don't get to tell me that for my own criteria I need to have more numbers. You may have them for yours, but you don't get to make my criteria.

You're so defensive and hell bent on having an argument you can't even recognize discussion.

 

QUOTE where I've done what you mention above to anyone in this thread.

This is yet another example of you inventing points of contention based on figments of your imagination.

I think now I see why you stated that you stayed away from this thread, because it turns out a lot more football gets discussed when you don't post.

[darrelgreenie]

                                                                                                                  

Here I'm gonna re-state the entire SUM of my comments about your metic. 

 

~16th PPG
Cool that's something at least.

[Vanguard]

Depending on how the DEs play (if Hatcher is healthy, if Baker/Jenkins steps up), I wonder if we see more 4-3 looks. Between that, occassionally rushing 5 and Kerrigan playing a little DE in the 3-4, I'd like to think they could get Kerrigan and Orakpo's rushes closer to the 450-500 mark. Granted, I feel like they did all of those things last year, but they also had major issues in coverage/interior pressure. Alleviate those problems (at least to some degree) and maybe Haslett will feel more comfortable doing the above things on a more regular basis?

 

I agree with this.

[RandyHolt]

I wonder now, that if Haslett was retained in part because he was handcuffed in which assistants he had. He clearly had Allen's ear, and was likely thrilled when Gruden was hired.

 

But clearly the Slowik factor was in play. They may be THAT poorly viewed by those in the know, which helped Hasletts cause. Does anyone know how long the Shanahan defense has suffered from a Slowik?

 

I am not sure if any Skins fan were happy with either Slowik at any time, and lets just hope Bob* were worse than Haslett. Dare I think they have been pretty darn bad, seeing how porous our D has largely been with 2 of them directly working with our players. 

[Morneblade]

Morne-All I have to say to your previous post is Great! You, no offense, are one of the many posters so intent on arguing your point and grinding your axe against Haslett you don't even realize that it's not the current conversation.

Currently the convo has been about the statistical measures if the defense AND

What benchmarks do you expect/ need the defense to hit to constitute success or failure?

 

This is the quote I was referring to. I had already given you my metric. Also notice the snide comment.

Dude,

 

Dude, what are you talking about? You are once again inventing points of contention that don't exist.

Since when is saying "Cool" any of the above?

 

Huh? You need to re-read that post because no where do I ask you for more metrics.

That's a figment of your overly defensive imagination.

You're so defensive and hell bent on having an argument you can't even recognize discussion.

 

QUOTE where I've done what you mention above to anyone in this thread.

This is yet another example of you inventing points of contention based on figments of your imagination.

I think now I see why you stated that you stayed away from this thread, because it turns out a lot more football gets discussed when you don't post.

And this is why I haven't gotten more involved. I'm not arguing nor debating with you, Debate was the term you used (Post #625). Maybe you need to chill out.

[Morneblade]

I'd also like to add DG, if I came off as adversarial it was unintentional. Certain words you used may not have been what you were actually trying to convey and my pointing out actual definitions of them might have come across that way.

[deepball1]

I hope Jim Haslett's defensive staff meetings are not as contentious as the discussions on this thread. Lucky for the Skins that some of you guys who like to argue will not be sitting in on the Skins meetings. I always like to go back to when I joined and read that part about the "friendly confines" of this board and then turn to one of the threads to catch the fireworks.

 

Calm down. Everything will be okay.....I promise. This defense is going to not only surprise some folks but actually some ESPN experts will be in total shock. Of course that's not unusual because they are mostly wrong every year.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I wonder now, that if Haslett was retained in part because he was handcuffed in which assistants he had. He clearly had Allen's ear, and was likely thrilled when Gruden was hired.

 

But clearly the Slowik factor was in play. They may be THAT poorly viewed by those in the know, which helped Hasletts cause. Does anyone know how long the Shanahan defense has suffered from a Slowik?

 

I am not sure if any Skins fan were happy with either Slowik at any time, and lets just hope Bob* were worse than Haslett. Dare I think they have been pretty darn bad, seeing how porous our D has largely been with 2 of them directly working with our players.

I don't think this can be understated. Slowik failed when he was the coach of the secondary, they brought in Morris to repace him, and then Shanahan simply moved Slowik into the LB coach slot.

Slowik also was on the coahcing staff or coordinator of some bad defenses with Shanahan in Denver.

It doesn't absolve Haslett, but it definitely shows that Shanahan had a huge say in the defense, the defensive coaching staff, and clearly as the de-facto GM, the players.

With Shanahan gone, Slowik gone, and Allen now officially in charge of personnel, in conjunction with the coaching staff and personnel dept, I think that the organization is taking a wait-and-see approach with Haslett.

[London Kev]

It’s getting a bit feisty in here, I like it. But play nice guys, not long to wait now.

 

I like stats myself and when it comes to defense there’s only one that matters – points per game allowed, specifically in relation to points per game scored.

 

Obviously the primary job of a defense is to stop the other team from scoring; Either by forcing a turnover/safety, stopping them on 3^rd down and making them punt or stopping them on 4^th down.

 

Our defense last year was just horrible, allowing 29.9 PPG (tied for 30^th in the league). Our offense scored 20.9 PPG (23^rd). You don’t need a calculator to know that that’s a PPG difference of -9.0, and you don’t need to be John Madden to know that you can’t be competitive with stats like that.

 

Here are the same stats for the last few years.
 

Year      OPPG     DPPG      Diff
2013       20.9        29.9        -9.0
2012       27.2        24.2        +3.0
2011       18.0        22.9        -4.9
2010       18.9        23.6        -4.7
2009       16.6        21.0        -4.4
2008       16.6        18.5        -1.9

 

Like most of you, I’m expecting our offense to bounce back from 2013 and an OPPG of 24 to 27 is not unreasonable.

 

To be competitive you need a positive PPG difference, therefore I will consider our defense to successful if they allow a PPG of 24 or less.

 

Man-up Haslett, get your arse out of the booth and back on the sideline. We expect, deserve, demand more from you.

[RandyHolt]

I don't like points per game blindly. Look at 2012 PPG on D. We were in the playoffs and held tough with Seattle with RG3 and Garcon injured, and obviously ineffective after the first half of the first quarter. PPG? 2nd worst in 6 years of futility... yet we were competitive in the playoffs. 

 

I feel like a bend don't break tends to fail. They give opponents long sustained drives.  And then predictably, when they get into the red zone, as they do almost every drive, the defense blitzes. An OC burns this very easily.  The defense is lucky to get off the field with a FG attempt, but they are gassed, and our offense is cold. Every damn drive, every quarter, every game, all year. The offense gets fewer drives to try to score so they face more pressure. When they get the ball, they may milk the clock to let the D rest. 

 

Remember our Blache defenses, Lynn etc? I have never seen 9 yards given up on first down like those years of "points domination". Our team sucked. We didn't generate turnovers, didn't try to rattle QBs, played reactive on defense, were never proactive. Implemented the exact same game plan every week; we were simple to game plan for. Our defense never tried to win games for us. They merely tried to make our games competitive. Didn't use any players to their strengths. There is no energy generated, especially at home.  I could go on. 

 

There is more than one way to win in the NFL. If you want to do it by defense, then try to win games on defense, not merely band-aid the feared bleeding.  Get after the QB. Be hard to game plan for. Attack any weaknesses on offense. Jam tiny WRs, don't give them huge predictable cushions on 1st 2nd and 3rd down.  Bum rush stunt and deceive the weakest OL.  Do not play defense afraid. Bend don't break treats the best offenses and the worst, the same. BDB lets crappy offenses compete.  

 

I prefer wins over points allowed.  Anything less than the playoffs this year will likely be failure to me for Haslett, barring an obvious and complete collapse of our offense. 

[London Kev]

I don't like points per game blindly. .........I prefer wins over points allowed.  Anything less than the playoffs this year will likely be failure to me for Haslett, barring an obvious and complete collapse of our offense. 

 

I totally agree with you that wins are all that matters.

 

If we win the game then the defense was successful, whether they concede 40 points or zero, just as long as they concede less than the offense scores and so there is a positive PPG difference. I just put a number to it (24 PPG or less) based on my prediction of our offense scoring 24 to 27 PPG.

 

Your deciding factor of reaching the playoffs is just as valid.

[Darth Tater]

I totally agree with you that wins are all that matters.

 

If we win the game then the defense was successful, whether they concede 40 points or zero, just as long as they concede less than the offense scores and so there is a positive PPG difference. I just put a number to it (24 PPG or less) based on my prediction of our offense scoring 24 to 27 PPG.

 

Your deciding factor of reaching the playoffs is just as valid.

Not really relevant unless you are saying we keep Has even if we concede 40 points but win.  You win consistently by winning in  as many ways as possible. When was the last time we put together multiple winning seasons?  Oh yeah, all parts of our game were good to great.  Our offense could bail out our defense and our defense could bail out our offense.  Few teams have a part that dominates every week.  Even the vaunted 2000 Raven's defense had a couple of bad games. To get to the playoffs, you need to have a defense that is at least mediocre so you win the games you should win and maybe steal a couple you shouldn't,  So the first question is about Haslett's ability to field such a defense and the second question is about what we'd see that would make us agree that he has at least achieved that.

[darrelgreenie]

I think PPG is a valuable stat but it doesn't really isolate the defense from the offense and special teams. Imho it gives a snap of 'total team defense' which would include special teams and offense.

YPG is similarly flawed defensive stat because it doesn't isolate the defense from the offense and special teams, but between those 2 stats I think PPG gives a truer picture.

 

Let say the offense can't sustain their drives or turns the ball over it leads to good field position and good field position means a higher chance of the offense scoring.

The worse field position a team allows the more points the give up. The difference between an offense starting from the inside the 20 vs say the 30+ could the difference between a forcing a punt vs giving up a field goal.

 

Regardless I agree the PPG for this defense needs to go up.

I hope for 20th or better or around 24 PPG or less.

http://es.redskins.com/topic/366753-jim-haslett-time-for-him-to-show-something/?p=9855770

[London Kev]

Not really relevant unless you are saying we keep Has even if we concede 40 points but win.

 

Obviously not if we concede 40 pts every game (I did say 40 pts or zero), but if we allowed 40 pts in a few games but still maintained a 24 PPG or less average, then yes I would call that an improvement.

 

I think we all agree that no stat in isolation can accurately gauge success, I just put forward what I believe to be the most important one (actually PPG difference).

 

For what it's worth another personal favourite of mine is rushing YPG. I love it when we limit the opposition to less than 100 yds. A meaningless stat really, especially if we then concede 400+ yds through the air, but I get a kick out of it when we do.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I think PPG is a valuable stat but it doesn't really isolate the defense from the offense and special teams. Imho it gives a snap of 'total team defense' which would include special teams and offense.

YPG is similarly flawed defensive stat because it doesn't isolate the defense from the offense and special teams, but between those 2 stats I think PPG gives a truer picture.

Let say the offense can't sustain their drives or turns the ball over it leads to good field position and good field position means a higher chance of the offense scoring.

The worse field position a team allows the more points the give up. The difference between an offense starting from the inside the 20 vs say the 30+ could the difference between a forcing a punt vs giving up a field goal.

Regardless I agree the PPG for this defense needs to go up.

I hope for 20th or better or around 24 PPG or less.

http://es.redskins.com/topic/366753-jim-haslett-time-for-him-to-show-something/?p=9855770

Agree. That said, one thing good defenses do is bail out offense or ST after a turnover or long return. Those things will happen, and I expect a good defense to be able to hold an opposing offense to a FG try sometimes even when they are put in bad situations.

Similarly the offense benefits from turnovers and good ST play.

I kinda think it works itself out in the end unless you have a huge negative turnover ratio or the worst ST in history.

Of the defense improves, you'll see fewer points scored against and more turnovers.

Defense owl definitely be helped by less offensive turnovers and better ST.

One more thing: I'd really like the defense to force FG attempts on half of the short fields that they face.

[skins island connection]

I hope Jim Haslett's defensive staff meetings are not as contentious as the discussions on this thread. Lucky for the Skins that some of you guys who like to argue will not be sitting in on the Skins meetings. I always like to go back to when I joined and read that part about the "friendly confines" of this board and then turn to one of the threads to catch the fireworks.

 

Calm down. Everything will be okay.....I promise. This defense is going to not only surprise some folks but actually some ESPN experts will be in total shock. Of course that's not unusual because they are mostly wrong every year.

 

 Aw, c'mon, thats no fun !

 

 Nothing wrong with 'family' having a POV discussion.

 The good part about it is we all care, we have a passion for our team, and we all want the offense and defense to be the best in the league, although that will prob never happen. There are not many posts in this thread that I don't agree with to some degree; most have their niche on a certain aspect or facet of the issue, so in a way we're like bowling balls; as long as we're rolling down the same lane and knocking down pins then we're ok; we always have time later to argue who goes first in the ball return tunnel...

[darrelgreenie]

I kinda think it works itself out in the end unless you have a huge negative turnover ratio or the worst ST in history.

Of the defense improves, you'll see fewer points scored against and more turnovers.

Defense owl definitely be helped by less offensive turnovers and better ST.

But that's the problem with PPG by itself. We don't know if it works itself out and if you look at last year's PPG for example, like you mentioned it was negatively impacted by the worst ST in history. We don't know/can't quantify the impact the offense and special teams had on the points allowed. For me PPG is good 'team' defensive stat; but for reason mentioned above I think FBO Defensive Efficiency is a more accurate measure of the 'defense' by itself without offense/special teams.

[Voice_of_Reason]

But that's the problem with PPG by itself. We don't know if it works itself out and if you look at last year's PPG for example, like you mentioned it was negatively impacted by the worst ST in history. We don't know/can't quantify the impact the offense and special teams had on the points allowed. For me PPG is good 'team' defensive stat; but for reason mentioned above I think FBO Defensive Efficiency is a more accurate measure of the 'defense' by itself without offense/special teams.

And that's fair.

But I also think that a good defense, even when the deck is stacked against them, can still make plays.

Let me give you this hypothetical:

Les takes Seattle's D and put it on the Skins of 2013. Let's assume exactly the same situations, ST, offensive turnovers, etc. Seattle gave up ~14 points per game. Skins gave up ~30.

My contention is that Seattle's PPG might go up some, but they'd still be in the top 10 in POG. Because they would bail out the rest of the teams mistakes sometimes.

Would it be more than 14 PPG? Sure. But it wouldn't be 30 PPG. And you could probably tell, just using the eye test that they were still a good defense.

I like PPG because defenses are put in bad positions, and they've got to work their way out of them. It's part of the game.

It's not the be all, end all. But the purpose if defense is to stop teams from scoring points. And that star measures that goal.

Shrug.

[darrelgreenie]

But I also think that a good defense, even when the deck is stacked against them, can still make plays

Of course.

 

Les takes Seattle's D and put it on the Skins of 2013. Let's assume exactly the same situations, ST, offensive turnovers, etc. Seattle gave up ~14 points per game. Skins gave up ~30.

My contention is that Seattle's PPG might go up some, but they'd still be in the top 10 in POG. Because they would bail out the rest of the teams mistakes sometimes.

Would it be more than 14 PPG? Sure. But it wouldn't be 30 PPG. And you could probably tell, just using the eye test that they were still a good defense.

It's not the be all, end all. But the purpose if defense is to stop teams from scoring points. And that star measures that goal.

Kinda...PPG measures the 'team' PPG not the 'defense' PPG and there is a difference and its this difference that you are attempting to explain away.

My point is this: IF the objective is to judge the defense independent of special teams and offense then PPG is unreliable especially when compared to other metrics like FBO's Defensive Efficiency or Yards per Play or QB rating against (for the passing game).

 

Your scenario proves my point. If PPG was a metric that isolated the defense then Seattles PPG wouldn't change if they were the defense on the 2013 Skins. But as you stated....My contention is that Seattle's PPG might go up some, but they'd still be in the top 10 in POG.......Would it be more than 14 PPG? Sure.

^^This is my point. The unknown impact that would control the increase in Seattle defense PPG is exactly the reason why PPG is less reliabe (although useful) as a metric that isolates/measures a defense compared to other available metrics.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Your scenario proves my point. If PPG was a metric that isolated the defense then Seattles PPG wouldn't change if they were the defense on the 2013 Skins. But as you stated....My contention is that Seattle's PPG might go up some, but they'd still be in the top 10 in POG.......Would it be more than 14 PPG? Sure.

^^This is my point. The unknown impact that would control the increase in Seattle defense PPG is exactly the reason why PPG is less reliabe (although useful) as a metric that isolates/measures a defense compared to other available metrics.

Ok, so I think we're saying roughly the same thing.

My thing is that I don't really care to judge the defense independently.

Let's bring this back to the thread topic: let's say the Skins ST are bad (they HAVE to be better) and the Skins offense still turns the ball over. And the Skins give up 27ppg.

I still think that should cost Haslet his job.

Now, if the same scenario was true and the skins gave up 24ppg, I'd say he did a pretty good job making the best of a bad situation. And he should keep his job.

If the Skins ST improved and the offense turned the ball over less, and they still gave up 24 PPG, I'd still think Haslet should keep his job.

Is thst 100% fair? Probably not. Life isn't fair.

Now, I'd add that if the DC had an excellent track record, it would change the decision point a bit.

But Haslet doesn't have a great track record, so I wouldn't really give him the benefit of the doubt.

[HuhWHATdefense]

In my opinion, last year was his time to show something. As far as I'm concerned, he's on borrowed time. I'm taking a "wait and see" approach but I'll be the first one in line throwing tomatoes and rocks and booing his sorry ass to get the boot if our defense comes out looking like more of the same since he's been here. I'm not sure why anyone is expecting anything extremely different from him, as he's shown absolutely nothing.... But I'll be willing to change my tune if he can get us into the top 10 in overall defense(rolling eyeballs) I won't be holding my breath needless to say

[ConcordNCSkinsFan]

Saw a tweet yesterday that had me thinking about something from last year that I forgot about. What exactly was the deal with Haslett going up to the coaching booth last season to call Defenses? I'm not buying the reasons that were given. I feel like he really wanted to isolate himself from Shanahan during games but it's obvious that he needs to be on the sidelines. Has anyone heard other views on this? 

[DC9]

Saw a tweet yesterday that had me thinking about something from last year that I forgot about. What exactly was the deal with Haslett going up to the coaching booth last season to call Defenses? I'm not buying the reasons that were given. I feel like he really wanted to isolate himself from Shanahan during games but it's obvious that he needs to be on the sidelines. Has anyone heard other views on this? 

 

Raheem was a better communicator/motivator with the players.  That was the biggest reason imo.  I wouldn't doubt that he didn't want to be next to Shanahan, though. 

[RandyHolt]

Perhaps it was a simple sign of protest, to distance himself literally and figuratively. Sure he was still on the headset and in comms with the other coaches, but the statement was made, for all to see, including fans. And Allen.

 

Actions speak louder than words. 

 

Totally going up there next week. I can't take being micromanaged anymore as the team collapses. And the damn twins. That's it. I will say I see the field better. Classic. No one will doubt it.

 

 

This fan will.